| Sothas |
I've seen a few out there and wasn't satisfied with any of them. There are a few out there that arn't bad.
Some info:
This is my first pathfinder conversion, but not even close to my first conversion of a class for other things.
It's mainly based on the 3.5 Complete Adventurers Ninja. There is a little Ninja of the Crecent Moon in there too.
It combines monk and rogue abilities from pathfinder just like it did in 3.5.
The general concept is avoidance and movement.
I plan on doing variants (just like in the Pathfinder Advanced Players) where the Ghost Step and Ghost Walk abilities are changed. My plan for the variants is basic. Level 2 = 2nd level spell for 1 round. Level 10 = 7th level spell once per round. Level 20 = the same ability as the level 10 only as the spell, i.e. for extended time.
As an example for a variant idea was lvl 2 = mirror image for 1 rd, lvl 10 = project image for 1 rd, lvl 20 = project image as spell. And stuff like that.
This has not yet been play testing but a player will be playing it in a current campaign as a kinda all in play test.
So here ya go.
NINJA
Base Attack Bonus: As rogue
Saves: As rogue
1st Ki pool, sneak attack +1d6, ninja acrobatics, trapfinding AC:+0 +0 ft.
2nd Ghost Step (invisible), evasion, +0 AC, +0 ft.
3rd Sneak attack +2d6, poison use, +0 AC, +0 ft.
4th Acrobatic movement, +1 AC, +0 ft.
5th Sneak attack +3d6, ki dodge, +1 AC, +10 ft
6th Ninja Flight, +1 AC, +10 ft
7th Sneak attack +4d6, ninja step, +1 AC, +10 ft
8th Ghost strike, +2 AC ,+10 ft
9th Sneak attack +5d6, improved poison use +2 +10 ft
10th Ghost Step (ethereal), +2 AC, +20 ft.
11th Sneak attack +6d6, +2 AC, +20 ft.
12th Improved evasion, +3 AC, +20 ft.
13th Sneak attack +7d6, silencing strike, +3 AC, +20 ft.
14th Ghost mind, +3 AC, +20 ft.
15th Sneak attack +8d6, +3 AC, +30 ft.
16th Ghost sight, +4 AC, +30 ft.
17th Sneak attack +9d6, +4 AC, +30 ft.
18th Greater ki Dodge, +4 AC, +30 ft.
19th Sneak attack +10d6, +4 AC, +30 ft.
20th Ghost walk, Death Attack, +5 AC, +40 ft.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The ninja's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str), Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the ninja.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the blow gun, fukuma-bari, hand crossbow, kama, katana, kukri, kusari-gama, ninja-to, nekode, nunchaku, sai, shortbow, short sword, shuriken. Ninjas are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
A ninja wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying more than a light load loses access to her ki pool (and all related abilities), AC bonus, acrobatic movement, ninja flight, and ninja step.
AC Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the ninja adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a ninja gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four ninja levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the ninja is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless.
Movement Bonus: This ninja gains a 10 ft. increase to his speed at level 5. Every 5 levels after he gains an additional 10 ft. reaching a max of +40 ft. at level 20.
Ki Pool (Su): A ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a ninja's ki pool is equal to ½ his ninja level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she gains a +2 bonus on her Will saves.
Sneak Attack (Ex): If a ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The ninja's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the ninja flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two ninja levels thereafter. Should the ninja score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a ninja can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.
The ninja must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A ninja cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Ninja Acrobatics: At 1st level a ninja is trained in advanced acrobatic techniques. He gains a +1 to Acrobatics skill per ninja level.
Trapfinding: A ninja can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level a ninja can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the ninja is wearing no armor and is carrying only a light load. A helpless ninja does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Ghost Step (invisible) (Su): At 2nd level, a ninja can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to become invisible for 1 round. This ability functions as the invisibility spell.
Poison Use: At 3rd level, A ninja is trained in the use in poison and cannot accidently poison themselves when applying poison to a weapon
Acrobatic Movement: At 4th level a ninja gains the Ledge walker and Rogue crawl rogue talents. In addition they may always take 10 on acrobatics even when distracted or normally not allowed to do so.
Ninja Flight: At 6th level ninja may spend a ki point to give him the ability to jump great distances. He always counts as having a running start when jumping. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a ninja gains a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round. Additionally, when the ninja deliberately falls, a DC 15 Acrobatics check allows him to ignore the first 20 feet of falling damage instead of 10.
Ninja Step: At 7th level the ninja gains the Fast Stealth rogue talents as well as the Spider Step feat. However, the distance the ninja can move with Spider Step is equal to his movement speed.
Ki Dodge (Su): At 6th level a ninja can spend 1 ki point as an immediate action to gain concealment until the start of her next turn. If this ability is used in response to an attack, the attacker must roll for concealment prior to dealing damage, even if this attack has already been rolled.
Ghost Strike (Su): At 8th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains ghost touch special quality to all his attacks.
Improved Poison Use: At 9th level the ninja may apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
Improved Evasion: At 12th level the ninja gains the improved evasion rogue advanced talent. It functions exactly the same only the ninja must not be wearing any armor and only be carrying a light load.
Silencing Strike: When a ninja deals sneak attack damage to a creature, that creature is silenced for 1 round.
Ghost Mind (Su): A ninja gains a spell resistance against any spell of the Divination (scrying) school equal to 11 + ninja level. Additionally, so strong is the ninja’s mind that if the spell resistance is overcome the ninja gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist the spell.
Ghost Sight (Su): A ninja with at least 1 ki point remaining can see invisibility as the spell.
Greater Ki Dodge (Su): As ki dodge, but the ninja benefits from total concealment.
Ghost Walk (Su): A ninja can expend 2 ki points to enter the Ethereal Plane. This ability functions as the ethereal jaunt spell with a caster level equal to his ninja level.
Death Attack: As the Assassin’s Death Attack only the DC is Wisdom based.
| pres man |
Just to let you know, there is a forum higher up in the list that deals specifically with PF conversions. I already put a flag on your post to let the mods know you probably will want it in that forum, so hopefully the mods will move it up for you. You are more likely to get helpful responses in that forum than in this one.
Good luck.
| Anburaid |
I have to say, its got some decent structure. I like the bonus movement, the acrobatics, and a lot of the invisibility powers, but I wish there was some love for disguise. There might actually be too many invisibility powers here.
The weapon proficiencies are good, but are there any that are so good, they aught to be bought with exotic weapon proficiency?
I'd move death attack to a much lower level. Its a poor capstone. Death attack seems much more powerful than it really is. People often think that its usable in combat, but really it only is usable in the first round, after which the opponents know of the existence and danger presented by the assassin. Its designed to be an opening move, that, if successful, takes out one the of a few opponents a given party might face. A single opponent set against the party often has way too high of a save bonus for this ability to be viable. It also is nice as a flavor ability, knowing that your assassin can leap out with a really strong ambush and basically slay any "normal" bystander (which you rarely will be pitted against in regular game).
What you might do for your capstone is make a more powerful Death Attack (akin to the rogue capstone) and move death attack to a level similar to where the ninja might pick it up if he/she were to multiclass into the assassin PrC.
All in all, its a great first draft. One last thing. Most PF classes have some customization options, a la bonus feats, rogue talents, rage powers, spell schools, or an either/or option. Might be nice to see that represented in the class somewhere.
| Sothas |
In this post I'm debating a lot of your ideas, and it's nott me being deffensive, it's just giving reason behind my reasoning.
I have to say, its got some decent structure. I like the bonus movement, the acrobatics, and a lot of the invisibility powers,
Thanks. That's the overall key of the class is the movement and avoidance, like i said.
but I wish there was some love for disguise.
I agree, I couldn't figure out exactly where to put it, perhaps some alternate class abilites that replace the movement or ki powers eventually ending up with perfect disgues effect similar to A Thousand Faces and A Thousand Hearts combined
There might actually be too many invisibility powers here.
I disagree, and there's a very simple reason why. Uncanny dodge.
Invis is only usable on your turn, and it's not like the 3.5 one where it's the whole round. It'll only last 1 round if you don't attack. It's as invisibility, so if you attack you're no longer invisible. Ethereal on the other hand will last the whole round, which is why it's higher level.
Ki dodge, which kinda fits the same bracket will last an entire round too, but it's more for deffence. With concealment the ninja can't be hit by sneak attack. This is the general answer to uncanny dodge, which the ninja does not get, and for a good reason.
Too many ki powers? Well that's kinda a disadvantage isn't it. The class rellies heavily on the ki pool and can spend ki points left and right to gain all sorts un unkillability (if it's not a word i'm trade marking it). This makes you pick and choose when you actually use the power perhaps to move past a guard, or just try and stealth past but risk being seen. Or should i take this hit and save it for a possible critical later, or do I want to dodge this one. Too many choices can be a hinderance when there's a limit to how many times you can use it.
The weapon proficiencies are good, but are there any that are so good, they aught to be bought with exotic weapon proficiency?
Perhaps, I'll take another look at it and go through them individually, but if you take a look at every other ninja class, most, if not all of the listed weapons are there. Perhaps things like the nekode need EWP, but keep in mind in order to use almost every common weapon it requires a MWP or EWP anyway. This limits weapon availability in almost every campaign unless it's oriental based, or you have a DM like mine.
I'd move death attack to a much lower level. Its a poor capstone. Death attack seems much more powerful than it really is. People often think that its usable in combat, but really it only is usable in the first round, after which the opponents know of the existence and danger presented by the assassin. Its designed to be an opening move, that, if successful, takes out one the of a few opponents a given party might face. A single opponent set against the party often has way too high of a save bonus for this ability to be viable. It also is nice as a flavor ability, knowing that your assassin can leap out with a really strong ambush and basically slay any "normal" bystander (which you rarely will be pitted against in regular game).
What you might do for your capstone is make a more powerful Death Attack (akin to the rogue capstone) and move death attack to a level similar to where the ninja might pick it up if he/she were to multiclass into the assassin PrC.
The death attack was more of a "wtf do I put here, oh that sounds cool." The class lacks in offensive ability (which is intended) so we thought that would add a little. We came up with another ability that fits the theme.
Ninja Dodge: By spending 3 ki points as an imediate action the ninja can opt to dodge a single melee attack, ranged attacked, melee touch attack, ranged touch attack, or any spell that requires a reflex save completly, taking no damage from the attack. After dodging this attack the ninja may move up to 30 ft. and may use stealth to attampt to hide normally. He may not use this ability while any other ki power is active.
All in all, its a great first draft. One last thing. Most PF classes have some customization options, a la bonus feats, rogue talents, rage powers, spell schools, or an either/or option. Might be nice to see that represented in the class somewhere.
The idea is different clans. The different clans have different ki powers like the one i listen above. I'm also going to adapt the elemental ninjas from dragon mag... i think #351. It has fire, mist, and earth ninja alt abilites.
I feel there's no room for bonus feats or rogue talents. If you want rogue talents, multi-class into rogue. I see most people that have adapted the ninja class have just made it an almost alternate rogue and I really don't like that idea. If someone can show me where there might be room for bonus feats then i'll gladly put them in.
Other ideas we've had are super shuriken attacks, spider ninja (spider climb, web attacks, freedom of movement). More to come on that.
If this isn't enough customization, then perhaps instead of calling it alternate class abilites, I can make it like the cavalier and just call the class ability Clan Ability and it'll be just the same, except it'll give the illusion of greater customization similar to what paizo did in the APG.
| Sothas |
Ok, got some minor changes and one addition class feature. Here it is.
Clan (Su): At 1st level a ninja swears an oath to a specific clan. Once the ninja chooses a clan he continues down the path of that clan and may never change clans. Each clan trains the ninja in specific and unique ki powers that will aid the ninja it his duty. When the ninja reaches 2nd level he gains a clan ability that is unique to his clan. The ninja gains new clan abilities at 8th, 10th, 14th, 16th and 20th levels.
Whispering Wind Clan
Ghost Step (invisible): At 2nd level, a ninja can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to become invisible for 1 round. This ability functions as the invisibility spell.
Ghost Strike: At 8th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains ghost touch special quality to all his attacks.
Ghost Step (ethereal): At 10th level, when a ninja uses his Ghost Step ability he becomes ethereal instead. This ability functions like ethereal jaunt except that it only lasts one round.
Ghost Mind: At 14th level a ninja gains a spell resistance against any spell of the Divination (scrying) school equal to 11 + ninja level. Additionally, so strong is the ninja’s mind that if the spell resistance is overcome the ninja gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist the spell.
Ghost Sight: 16th level a ninja with at least 1 ki point remaining can see invisibility as the spell.
Ghost Walk: At 20th level a ninja can expend 2 ki points as a swift action to enter the Ethereal Plane. This ability functions as the ethereal jaunt spell with a caster level equal to his ninja level.
Stone Fortress Clan
Stone Step: At 2nd level a ninja can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to meld to stone for 1 round. The ninja can see and hear out of the stone normally and may attack out of it. Any creature that is attacked by the ninja while melded is flat-footed. An attack will end the effect immediately. Otherwise, this ability functions like the spell.
Stone Strike: At 8th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, his attacks count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and the ninja may sneak attack inanimate stone objects.
Stone Slide: At 10th level whenever a ninja uses his stone step ability he gains a burrow speed equal to his speed. The tunnel created by this ability closes immediately after it is created and therefore the ninja cannot be followed through it. The ninja may only see and attack out of the earth if he is in the last 5 ft. of it. Additionally, if the ninja is shunted out of the stone for any reason he does not take the usual damage.
Stone Body: At 14th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains damage reduction 5/adamantine.
Stone Sight: At 16th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains tremor sense to a distance of 15 ft.
Stone Walk: At 20th level, a ninja can spend 2 ki points and meld to stone this ability lasts 1 round per ninja level. The ninja gains a burrow speed equal to his speed. The tunnel created by this ability closes immediately after it is created and therefore the ninja cannot be followed through it. The ninja may only see and attack out of the earth if he is in the last 5 ft. of it and any creature attacked is flat footed. Additionally, if the ninja is shunted out of the stone for any reason he does not take the usual damage.
| Sothas |
Crescent Moon Clan
Kuji-kiri (charm): At 2nd level a ninja can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to charm one person within 60 feet for 1 round. The targeted creature must make a Will save (DC = 10 + ½ ninja level + wis mod) or be charmed as per charm person.
Distracting Strike: At 8th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, his attacks cause the creature to become distracted. Any creature struck by the ninja’s sneak attack takes a -2 to all attacks, damage rolls, and skill checks for 1d4 rounds. Also, the ninja may spend 1 ki point a make an immediate hide check vs. the target of his sneak attack as if he wasn’t being observed. This hide check only lasts for 1 round. The ninja must have cover or concealment within 10 feet. If the ninja moves into cover or is concealed he may continue to hide normally.
Kuji-kiri (dominate): At 10th level whenever a ninja uses his Kuji-kiri ability he may choice to dominate the person instead for 1 round. This ability functions like dominate person. Also his charm ability works as charm monster.
Slippery Mind: At 14th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains the Slippery mind advanced rogue talent. Additionally he gains a +4 on saves vs. enchantments.
Enchanting Sight: At 16th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains the ability to detect enchantments. This ability functions like detect magic except he can only see enchantment spells. He can determine if a person is under the effects of an enchantment spell and with a Perception check DC: 25 he can tell who has control of the enchanted creature. Additionally he gains a +10 to all cha based skill checks.
Kuji-Kiri (dominate monster): At 20th level, a ninja can spend 2 ki points so his kuji-kiri ability will last a number of rounds equal to his ninja level and will work as dominate monster.
| Sothas |
Shadow Brother Clan
Shadow Brother (mirror image): At 2nd level a ninja can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to create a mirror copy of him. This functions as mirror image.
Shadow Strike: At 8th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, his shadow brother allows him to flank his target. Furthermore, as long as his more powerful shadow brothers threaten the same target the ninja threatens then he may flank that target.
Shadow Brother (project image): At 10th level whenever a ninja uses his mirror image ability he can instead create a single perfect image of himself. This ability functions as project image.
Shadow Body: At 14th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains a +10 to stealth checks.
Shadow Sight: At 16th level, as long as the ninja has 1 ki point in his pool, he gains darkvision up to 60’.
Shadow Brother (simulacram): At 20th level, a ninja can create a shadow brother that mimics the simulacram spell. The function of this spell is identical except that the double can only be of the ninja using the ability and it is made of shadow. All shadow brother abilities lasts a number of rounds equal to his ninja level when spending 2 ki points.
| SanguineRooster |
IT is very similar to the rogue, but I'm really enjoying playing this ninja: http://www.dorkistan.com/PFRPG/classes/ninja.htm
I would say yours just seems a little on the high powered side when compared to classes that it should have similarities with (Monk or Rogue)
| Sothas |
It's supose to be a rogue/monk combo, not an alt rogue.
What about it is high powered?
Just from number crunching a monk would have a decent chance at killing my ninja with it's stupid high AC, attack, and CMD. Granted, the ninja would have roughly the same AC, but lower attacks and a rogue would win outright, especially with a ghost touch weapon and the feat that ignores concealment.
So I truely want to know specifically what you think is overpowered. Please tell.
I've begun play testing in a campaign with the original ki powers (Whispering Wind Clan) and the guy playing the ninja is keeping up with my rogue almost perfectly in damage output. My rogue is more cutpurse and the ninja has more avoidance, but we're neck to neck.
but I'm really enjoying playing this ninja: http://www.dorkistan.com/PFRPG/classes/ninja.htm
There are several things about this class i like and several i really don't.
I love ninja flight, the new ki dodge, and ghost dash.
I really don't like the fact that they get rogue talents every other level, and several of the rogue talents they get are redunant. This class should be unique, not a rogue variant. While i like ghost dash, the combat effectiveness of it is redundance with ghost step (what dorkistan calls vanish). Defensive roll is redundant with ki dodge. Defensive roll is a little better, but it is the same concept. Also with the way the ki powers are set up with he dorkistan class, at level 10 i could use up every ki point in 4 rounds.... that's bad.
And just to point out, the capstone is grossly overpowered. Ether walk let's you use ethereal jaunt for 2 ki points, but it also lets you use vanish with out using any ki, which means you can perma-ethereal. So why use 2 ki for the spell? In addition they can take rogue death attack ALSO, which is the only thing rogues get. That sir, is totally OP.
Anyway, i genuinely want to know what you think is OP so i can take a look at it and iron things out. Thanks for the feed back.
And for future posters, please respond constructively and with details. The first post was a good example.