Has anyone had players do this? I'm wanting to, now...
So, our party has finally made it to "Rivers Run Red", and we have been building up our cities.
We started out at the "suggested" starting area. Since our GM never read the entire rule set and encouraged us to expand mightily in all directions that, we bit off more than we could chew. When I got a hold of the kingdom building rules, I crunched the numbers, and found that we would be in complete anarchy after a couple turns. (Stability 8, DC 27...)
So, rather than rely on our GM who loves to use Deus Ex Machina to save us, which seems to happen a heck of a lot in our GM's games, I decided to be a little "preemptive". Since my arrogant Aasimar enchanter (who was appointed the ruler) refuses to be blamed for anything because his DIVINE blood means he can't be wrong, he claimed all the NPC rulers as Brevoyan spies trying to undermine the new colony and force it to be a puppet state of Brevoy. Yes, it was a clever way to annex the Stolen Lands! But not on Baron Hayriihsan Deadhater's watch! So, all the NPCs that graciously volunteered to be leaders after three seconds of meeting us PCs were executed (except Oleg and Svetlana). Hayrii then looted the treasury, razed the city, and fled with the other PCs to the Sootscale mines. There, he started a new city (as a form of a soft reboot so that we don't have to redo the whole adventure)...
With more careful planning and bookkeeping, and adopting our kobold allies into the power structure, the city grew quickly and weirdly sustainable. It helps when you keep having huge celebrities visit your crappy mining town (seriously, we had some amazing rolls this time around). I guess our kobold friends were so glad to have a city that they even built a castle in Hayrii's honor. The economy is huge, and the little guys are ready to tackle any horrible event that may happen. Their loyalty, too, is almost unquestionable...
So, with this bit of luck and clever building, we're about to take Oleg's old place, and make our way westward. So, I'm thinking, what about bringing in rogue Boggards? Build a big lizard-frog empire! Could I achieve this all IC and not totally mess up the Kingmaker adventure path too much? Should I up the promotional edicts that kind of "recruit" these guys?
How would you go about it?
There is lots of awesome in this. It will ruin much of the premise of book 3, but I can see ways of working arround it without disrupting much. The adventure parts can still be used, but the initial hook is already destroyed. The other books are not hard to rework to fit with this, and if your GM is willing to put in some legwork I can see this being awesome.
There is lots of awesome in this. It will ruin much of the premise of book 3, but I can see ways of working arround it without disrupting much. The adventure parts can still be used, but the initial hook is already destroyed. The other books are not hard to rework to fit with this, and if your GM is willing to put in some legwork I can see this being awesome.
Well, thankfully nothing was outright spoiled by the comments. But knowing this, I can easily take things back in a direction that would give our GM far less of a headache. As mentioned in the other reply, our GM apparently is very inexperienced. He's got his proverbial hands full with our group already. He's a savant when it comes to Battletech, but apparently he hasn't figured PFRPG out.
We've yet to do anything beyond just building up the Sootscale city. I was merely asking how feasible it would be to pursue such in this adventure path, or if I should be a better person and curtail the bad behavior, despite my character being Lawful Evil from the beginning.
I'm just sorry people read that I was too much of a "kick the door" in player. I honestly made this character to be a tyrant, but a smart one who uses words as much as magic to help keep things balanced. Part of his adventuring is to make himself look like a benevolent hero in the eyes of his people, and the prosperity only confirms that. Sure, a little lapse in judgement for the mass executions, but true redemptions can make for good character development.
I actually think you'll be okay. People are being a little too trapped by the modules as written for #3, IMHO. The DM can easily have some other NPC deliver the plot invite to that module. And you'll love the possibilities for your nonhuman empire in that module. For #4, the hook will have to be rewritten, but all the human antagonism towards a kobold nation is going to make the initial hook a breeze. The more involved quest? That'd be a bit harder.
As a player: It's a brilliant reboot.
Make the nymphs and dryads an important part of your leadership. Great PR, wonderful charisma stats and it broadens the alignment spectrum of your empire. It's going to be hard to claim you're evil and unite against you when you have beautiful good nature spirits front and center. Plus, there's the Real Myth fey connection between nature spirits and the kobolds.
I'd suggest using a rhetoric of multi-culturalism, myself. Talk about your races living together in harmony! Play it like the Soviets bringing up segregation every chance they had in the UN if some of the human empires (read: US 1950s) get uppity.
The lawful side of Kobolds is going to make it a touch easier, but I agree that you're going to have to show your true lizard side rather soon to retain their trust. There's a certain prestige class that would help here, obviously, but disguise self and some good bluffs and intimidates could work wonders in the meantime: "When the king gets angry, he turns into the biggest kobold you ever saw! He's the best!"
You know what you need: a faerie dragon. That's what you need.
There is lots of awesome in this. It will ruin much of the premise of book 3, but I can see ways of working arround it without disrupting much. The adventure parts can still be used, but the initial hook is already destroyed. The other books are not hard to rework to fit with this, and if your GM is willing to put in some legwork I can see this being awesome.Well, thankfully nothing was outright spoiled by the comments. But knowing this, I can easily take things back in a direction that would give our GM far less of a headache. As mentioned in the other reply, our GM apparently is very inexperienced. He's got his proverbial hands full with our group already. He's a savant when it comes to Battletech, but apparently he hasn't figured PFRPG out.
We've yet to do anything beyond just building up the Sootscale city. I was merely asking how feasible it would be to pursue such in this adventure path, or if I should be a better person and curtail the bad behavior, despite my character being Lawful Evil from the beginning.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm just sorry people read that I was too much of a "kick the door" in player. I honestly made this character to be a tyrant, but a smart one who uses words as much as magic to help keep things balanced. Part of his adventuring is to make himself look like a benevolent hero in the eyes of his people, and the prosperity only confirms that. Sure, a little lapse in judgement for the mass executions, but true redemptions can make for good character development.
Unfortunately for your character Kingmaker is an AP written with a more benevolent sort in mind. Regardless of what your intentions were with this character appearence to the populace, you've fireballed them into oblivion: you're a mass murderer and a traitor in the eyes of your former people. Worse yet you've allied yourself with what the general population considers to be monsters and helped them to build the kingdom you promised to others.
tlc really hit the nail on the head with many of his points about the drawbacks of a kobold kingdom, but one that was missed is where are all the kobolds coming from? As I recall there are about a dozen kobolds in the cave. Are you bringing in kobold settlers like you would have done with humans and the other associated common intelligent races or do you have an army of super virile kobolds scoring round the clock? Do they breed in litters? And what's the gestation period on a kobold baby? And at what rate do they mature into something that can contribute to society? It just seems like you don't have the same labor base with kobolds that you do with the regular races.
All that being said, perhaps you can make a come back like certain historical monsters, for example the Chinese warlord Cao Cao. He did some pretty awful things and was at one point considered a traitor to the Empire, but by saving the right people at the right time he was able to get back in everyone's good graces and become Prime Minister (a position he abused to it's fullest extent). People had (and still have) strange notions about what constitutes good leadership, sometimes countries would actively seek out some noble to be their king because they didn't have one and it just didn't occur to anyone that someone besides a noble could rule. So if you can do something really amazing that convinces everyone that your days of being a mass murderung psychopath are behind (or at least turned to more positive ends) you could run a successful kingdom possibly integrating the regular races into your kobold set up.
Nawwwwwww. I'm doing just fine, it appears. Everyone, GM included, is having a blast. Very positive responses from them, and they've since called about how eager they are to start playing the next session. That's what matters! They've joined in on the propaganda campaign, and have helped usher in the Golden Age, obviously blessed by some powerful kobold entity (who deigned visit our humble village three times, as per a GM rolling a 99 three different times during a confirmed event roll that was made in front of all us players). The influx of people could have been kobolds, and have since decided to stay. All good things must come to an end, to be sure. It only takes a die roll to kill a PC, then it's on to the next!
In the meantime, Viva the Cold-Blood Kinships (a mercantile pact loosely based on The Hanseatic League)!!!
|
edit: There are a lot of romanticised ideas out there about how mediaeval rulers ran things - even the relatively decent ones - especially when welding together a brand new dominion (it might not be diplomatic to call it a kingdom just yet) from a borderland that's been in the hands of bandits and savage races throughout living memory, depending, of course, which living creatures you ask ... The Hundred Years' War and Norman conquest of Wales come to mind. Levelling the local power structure, pillaging and burning everything that you can't hold and relocating to an existing strongpoint whose people are willing to accept you as ruler all sounds entirely sensible. If the local humans don't like it, they should have formed themselves a civilised government earlier and stopped making their living by raiding and murdering Brevoy citizens.
I agree that finding a way to appear more kobold-y would be a good next move.
|
|
People had (and still have) strange notions about what constitutes good leadership, sometimes countries would actively seek out some noble to be their king because they didn't have one and it just didn't occur to anyone that someone besides a noble could rule.
Just so - also because the alternative was choosing one of the local faction (or, worse, clan) leaders, who would have immediately rampaged around settling old scores and oppressing all the other groups.
Interesting campaign. Certainly evil rulers, particularly ones with a big E such as your character's actions clearly demonstrated, will definitely prove to be a challenge for your inexperienced DM, who will need to alter some stuff on the fly to continue the adventure path as written. Hopefully, he'll rise to the challenge.
For you as a player, a few things to consider as you seek to extend your tyranny further into the Stolen Lands.
Watch your back. Your actions have labeled you and your group as very dangerous and unstable rulers, barely distinguishable from the Stag Lord. The Sword Lords didn't give you a charter to kill him with the intention of putting someone just as bad in place. Add to that the fact you have publicly used Brevoy as a scapegoat to explain the failure of your first kingdom. You've certainly won no friends up north. Don't be surprised if Brevoy puts a price on your head, and sends heroes or assassins after you.
Watch all your other sides, too. A kobold kingdom (or any kingdom dominated by evil humanoids) will certainly draw attention from all your neighbors and make them nervous. They may skip the heroes/assassins step and move direct to sending in armies to nip the problem you represent in the bud. Note that gnomes have a pathological hatred of kobolds, so any organized gnome communities anywhere in the world are going to be looking at you.
Kobolds get no respect. Among the less savory of your neighbors, the idea of kobolds holding on to anything of value is practically an invitation to come take it. Even goblins are pretty sure they can take kobolds. While you may be a bad-ass personally, your troops are 3 feet tall and cowardly. I know if I were a local orc chieftain (or substitute any other evil humanoid in the region) I'd see your community as an open invitation to come do a little bullying.
Kobolds ain't much for farming or any other type of productive work. Not to mention the fact that they don't routinely produce the skilled craftsmen needed to make a kingdom thrive. Your DM may handwave this, but if he doesn't, look to de-emphasize the "koboldness" of your kingdom as it expands.
I wish you lots of fun in this quirky campaign. I would say I wish you luck, but frankly I'm rooting for the relatives of the people you killed to come looking for you and kick your tyrannical butt. Nothing personal. :)
Interesting campaign. Certainly evil rulers, particularly ones with a big E such as your character's actions clearly demonstrated, will definitely prove to be a challenge for your inexperienced DM, who will need to alter some stuff on the fly to continue the adventure path as written. Hopefully, he'll rise to the challenge.
For you as a player, a few things to consider as you seek to extend your tyranny further into the Stolen Lands.
Watch your back. Your actions have labeled you and your group as very dangerous and unstable rulers, barely distinguishable from the Stag Lord. The Sword Lords didn't give you a charter to kill him with the intention of putting someone just as bad in place. Add to that the fact you have publicly used Brevoy as a scapegoat to explain the failure of your first kingdom. You've certainly won no friends up north. Don't be surprised if Brevoy puts a price on your head, and sends heroes or assassins after you.
Watch all your other sides, too. A kobold kingdom (or any kingdom dominated by evil humanoids) will certainly draw attention from all your neighbors and make them nervous. They may skip the heroes/assassins step and move direct to sending in armies to nip the problem you represent in the bud. Note that gnomes have a pathological hatred of kobolds, so any organized gnome communities anywhere in the world are going to be looking at you.
Kobolds get no respect. Among the less savory of your neighbors, the idea of kobolds holding on to anything of value is practically an invitation to come take it. Even goblins are pretty sure they can take kobolds. While you may be a bad-ass personally, your troops are 3 feet tall and cowardly. I know if I were a local orc chieftain (or substitute any other evil humanoid in the region) I'd see your community as an open invitation to come do a little bullying.
Kobolds ain't much for farming or any other type of productive work. Not to mention the fact that they don't routinely produce the skilled craftsmen needed to make a...
You sir, have a very different view of kobolds than me. In my mind, kobolds are the most feared of the little races. Only idiots go to war with kobolds. Unlike goblins, they have superior intelligence and craftyness. They don't take s&&# from anyone, less that person find themselves on the wrong side of murder-holes. They take to new tasks like no other race. They do tend to be lazy, but a good leader is one who can harness the energies of their people in productive ways. Woe be to anyone who wages war on an expanding Kobold Kingdom.
I haven't felt the need to actually explain what all has transpired with my character. My original write-up was terrible, and didn't convey everything that went on. Every encounter has had him try to be diplomatic. Why were the kobolds our allies to begin with? Why was the Boggard even showing a friendly disposition? It was all part of the character's mindset that if one avenue doesn't work out, there's always others. As for burning the city down? Mercenaries who were then double-crossed by the character to "prove" his claim that Brevoy was meddling in the affairs of the people of the Stolen Lands. There's far more to it, but at this point, judgement's been passed on my character by outsiders, so hey, cool. Let's leave it at that. After all, the original post was asking if people have done the non-human empire before. It also asked how one would do it, and if it would totally ruin Kingmaker, making it completely impossible for the GM to run it. Every player in our group wants to do this, even saying they'll play kobold characters from "Triessenel" if their current characters die. The GM even vowed to start going through all the remaining modules and change plot points where necessary.
Now, we had a marathon session this past Sunday. As mentioned, the players are loving it, so we're running with it...
Here's the events that have happened before this Sunday's game that made us want to build this up:
1. We honestly had plans to not run with the kobolds on the whole, but we did the RP scene of bargaining with Chief Sootscale and showing the plans for the city to be built around the mines. We offered leadership integration and protection. That planted the seed.
2. First month (well, technically second month, as it takes a month to finish prepping a hill hex) Food Shortage. Relocating a population to a new area, especially one where "farming" isn't a skill among the residents. We had to deal with Oleg to import some food for everyone. Not an auspicious start to a unified community. However, to show our dedication to the unified city cause, a Monument was built, depicting a kneeling human (uh... aasimar) grasping hands with a kobold chieftain. (Food Shortage - double BP consumption next turn, Monument Built).
3. As we decided to focus on a more defensive nature starting out, we opted to build a garrison to help start training a rag-tag bunch of warriors, turning kobolds and humanoids alike into a decent city watch. Nothing really to note. However, there must have been someone around that didn't like having to share life with kobolds (or maybe a kobold who didn't like sharing with humans), and dead bodies started appearing. The new city guard, however, went right to work, found the person responsible, and hung him in front of the Tribunal. Racial tensions were momentarily calmed. Nearby hex with a cave system was claimed and the surrounding area was set up for farming, not to mention roads built to help transport goods. (Sensational Crime - Averted; Garrison built)
4. Learning our lesson, we felt it necessary to build a jail. Sure, not the best thing to build right off the bat, but we figured it might make an example if anyone wants to stir up more trouble with the kobolds, or the kobolds with the "normals". Seems people took the hint, and things were just fine. (No event; Jail built)
5. Things have settled down. Or so we thought. Someone decided, we guess, to be a copy-cat killer, but unlike the last one, managed to get away with it for well over a month. The people were furious! The leadership had decided to hold off adventuring for a bit to help calm things down. Nothing was built until we could catch the person responsible. Finally, after the next month, we did. Jailed him. Executed him. Chief Sootscale demanded some sign of faith that we were working on keeping the kobolds protected. For once, my character decided to be stubborn and start working where he could salvage this community. He had an herbalist's shop set up to act as a makeshift clinic. But apparently he didn't have to work very hard, as suddenly...
VISITING CELEBRITY #1! We have no idea who this mysterious stranger was, but he brought quite a bit of loot with him. Also seemed to have a small cadre of kobolds with him (or her?), and the little guys decided to stick around. Things suddenly got... better. Chief Sootscale suddenly seemed more keen on our community working, and... well... things got much, much better from there.
6. As we now were running with a huge surplus, we spent a bit expanding the farmlands, focusing more on livestock for our carnivorous, cold-blooded comrades. Some managed to take to the task, though others ate their livestock before they realized what "husbandry" was. But soon, a few kobold pilgrims managed to learn the art, and...
VISITING CELEBRITY #2! This one brought even MORE money into the treasury. Like, almost as much as what Brevoy had originally given us. Another short influx of kobolds must have followed behind this stranger. Okay... we should totally suspicious of what's going on, but... well... we had more than enough to build a castle with what we got, and so we did.
And even from there, things only got better (all thanks to some crazy-lucky dice rolls). THAT is why we decided to run with the kobolds. Shortly thereafter, our characters are now seeking an "apotheosis" to become more in tune with the new reptilian populace.
A brief moment of very bitter racial tensions came when...
We've since reclaimed the old city and now have it as an "economic" capital where our merchant guilds can do buisiness with others without having others panic from seeing so many civilized lizards.
My character is using Alter Self a lot, and is seeking a more "permanent" solution to his scaleyness. After all, if his community has been so blessed by strange kobold-y happenings, it might be best to actually become one of them. Promotional edicts have been passed, and new festivals have been granted because we can totally afford it, AND it totally fits in with the IC happenings of marriages among the PCs (Hayrii remains a bachelor).
Again, there's much, much more to all this, but that's a summary of what's been going on.
Oh yeah, and there was an "Outstanding Success", too.
So, because of the sheer insane luck the dice have been granting us with this little experiment, well...
...Interesting campaign. Certainly evil rulers, particularly ones with a big E such as your character's actions clearly demonstrated, will definitely prove to be a challenge for your inexperienced DM, who will need to alter some stuff on the fly to continue the adventure path as written. Hopefully, he'll rise to the challenge.
For you as a player, a few things to consider as you seek to extend your tyranny further into the Stolen Lands.
Watch your back. Your actions have labeled you and your group as very dangerous and unstable rulers, barely distinguishable from the Stag Lord. The Sword Lords didn't give you a charter to kill him with the intention of putting someone just as bad in place. Add to that the fact you have publicly used Brevoy as a scapegoat to explain the failure of your first kingdom. You've certainly won no friends up north. Don't be surprised if Brevoy puts a price on your head, and sends heroes or assassins after you.
Watch all your other sides, too. A kobold kingdom (or any kingdom dominated by evil humanoids) will certainly draw attention from all your neighbors and make them nervous. They may skip the heroes/assassins step and move direct to sending in armies to nip the problem you represent in the bud. Note that gnomes have a pathological hatred of kobolds, so any organized gnome communities anywhere in the world are going to be looking at you.
Kobolds get no respect. Among the less savory of your neighbors, the idea of kobolds holding on to anything of value is practically an invitation to come take it. Even goblins are pretty sure they can take kobolds. While you may be a bad-ass personally, your troops are 3 feet tall and cowardly. I know if I were a local orc chieftain (or substitute any other evil humanoid in the region) I'd see your community as an open invitation to come do a little bullying.
Kobolds ain't much for farming or any other type of productive work. Not to mention the fact that they don't routinely produce the skilled
I like your kobolds! Sadly, in our campaign world they are sorely abused little losers that look like lizards, bark like dogs, have pretensions of being related to dragons, and are generally thought to be at the very low end of the food chain of monstrous humanoids.
Not that there haven't been attempts to revive the poor kobold in the past. I still feel bitter about the grenade throwing kobolds in Dragon Mountain, and lost more than one character to the damned magic arrow shooting kobold commandos in Baldur's Gate. Sounds like yours are more like that variety.
Well, our little Kobold experiment is still working out amazingly well, though we have built up the old Stag Lord's place to be a trading outpost where there's a greater human presence, so as not to sour any trading deals.
I went out and got "Classic Monsters Revisited" the other day, and read through the kobold section. Apparently, it's quite possible to do exactly what we're doing. Granted, it's my gaming group's interpretation of the information in that book, but still, it does give us greater hope of accomplishing our task. According to that book:
2. While not farmers in their own right, kobolds do practice animal husbandry. They breed dire weasels and dire boars, and are quite familiar in maintaining herds. Putting them to work as, say, goat and swine herders will take care of their carnivorous ways, though kobolds are omnivores, liking berries quite a bit, also. Again, since agronomy is currently beyond their means, they'll stick with nocturnal herding. Tradesmen (Butchers) would be the ideal structures to keep the tiny lizards happy in that respect. Oh yeah, and they prove excellent makers of clockwork apparatuses, as their tiny fingers are good at manipulating the various pieces required in construction.
3. The Sootscales are but one tiny fraction of the kobolds of the River Kingdoms. All places in the River Kingdoms have burrows on the riverbeds. These scaly folk are called, surprise, River Kobolds, and are quite numerous. The tricky part is extending the invitation for them to relocate to Triessenel. We've been extending diplomatic ties to the various River Kingdoms, and have sent representation to the Outlaw Council. We've been using the River Freedoms to roam about, extending invitations to the kobolds we meet, or convincing friendlier governments to "deport" kobolds to the new kingdom. It's certainly a double-edged sword. On the one hand, we're now "out of the closet" so there will be those viewing us as a threat. On the other hand, because of our industry and rather liberal trading policies, few have seen fit to complain so long as the goods are flowing. Also, it's nice to know where they are, rather than worrying about them resorting to banditry in your own land. Plus, they've become the responsibility of the damned fool who thought he could make a nation out of them.
However, having a few "Visiting Celebrity" and "New Vassals" events are helping tremendously in that regard.
4. Yes, we've definitely had to flex our muscle with the runts, because they NEED authority figures. My character doesn't make public announcements unless he's used Alter Self. Most of the time he has his face concealed under his robes, but he has had scaly tattoos made on his face. Not the best disguise, but when you're over twice the size of the people you're ruling, they don't really get a good look. On top of that, we've built a Cathedral dedicated to a "cause" (The Revelation of the Cold-Blooded Unity). This cause is dedicated to uniting kobold and lizard-kind into a new form of civilization dedicated to protection and family, as, it turns out, the defense of the young is of the utmost important among the reptilian humanoids. Our new High Priest and clergy perform divine healings and the like. Someone... actually cares for their well-being? Gasp! On top of that, we've been taking the time to make "heroes" for the population. Taking kobolds and lizardfolk, training them up, having them join our adventures and propagandizing their exploits will give people a sense of connection, too.
5. What probably is the most fun about this campaign is how most every event that happens could be a catalyst for a war between the warm-bloods and cold-bloods. The amusing challenge is how our characters will have to defuse said problems.
Our nation is at a point where we happily eat consumption each turn in the form of Edicts (propaganda, defense) and Festivals, to keep things calm and stable. It's a balancing act, to be sure, but it's proving to be quite fun for everyone at our table. And, judging from our interpretations, kobolds are absolutely a viable option for nation-building. However, our stats would be more like Human 45%, Kobold 45%, Lizardfolk 2%, Other 8% (Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halflings, Dwarves) Gnomes 0% (Geeeeeee....).
That is awesome!! i totally want to play kingmaker now lol, well done sir ;)
In my own game, the kobolds have been mostly kept at an arm's length, but the local leaders have good ties with the Sootscale Tribe. Chief Sootscale himself was recently upset with the heroes due to a troll attacking his people while they were adventuring, but he's planning his revenge on the trolls to both prove that he's worth keeping around and also to boast about his own skills as a chieftain. He might even demand a larger share of the land after such a daring trick, which will be interesting to see.