Need help on a Paladin issue

[Gunny]

Hi all,

I need some help adjudicating the following issue. The party I DM has a paladin of Erastil.

Spoiler:

They recently rescued the kobold prisoner being held by the mites beneath the sycamore tree. The party members took a liking to the the little bugger and agreed to help him recover his tribes' stolen holy statue. The paladin detected evil on the kobold (which came up positive) and now is faced with a dilemma. He thinks that as an evil creature he should slay the kobold and eradicate the sootscale tribe. The other party members think that an alliance is better. Can a LG paladin of Erastil make such an alliance, considering the fact that kobolds are evil by nature? As an asuide - the paladin is tasked by his order to help secure the lands and establish a stronghold that will act as a buffer against the bandits and orcs to the south and west

[KenderKin]

The first thing is are all the kobolds evil. If they are ruled by a N or Good leader then possibly something can be done.....

I think roleplaying the kobold is an option (aka jar-jar binks him)
What you mean right or wrong...oh tell me about right.....

Starry-eyed hero worship is really fun for Paladins!

This goes toward the redemption mission of Paladins.......

I have added many colors to the kobolds and a few dragonbreath kobolds, see the classics monsters re-visited for more info....

[RuyanVe]

Greetings, fellow travellers.

Well, actually by RAW the paladin should not have been able to detect evil - creatures under 5 HD do not emit an evil aura.

I think bringing evil beings around to see the rewards of "good" and helping them following the path to enlightenment is much more worthy of a paladin than just killing - that is done by everyone.

What is more, the kobold has not committed an evil act, so I would actually have Erastil intervene if he outright kills him.

Ruyan.

[Alexander Kilcoyne]

Yup, detect evil wouldn't show an aura so thats wrong to start with.

If the Paladin genuinelly believes the kobold is irredeemable then he is probably left with no choice but to slay it. If he thinks the kobolds are redeemable and works to redeem the kobold and by extension the tribe, thats also playing within his alignment.

[Gunny]

RuyanVe wrote:

Greetings, fellow travellers.

Well, actually by RAW the paladin should not have been able to detect evil - creatures under 5 HD do not emit an evil aura.

I think bringing evil beings around to see the rewards of "good" and helping them following the path to enlightenment is much more worthy of a paladin than just killing - that is done by everyone.

What is more, the kobold has not committed an evil act, so I would actually have Erastil intervene if he outright kills him.

Ruyan.

Well color me blue and call me a mite! I totally forgot that detect evil does not work on creatures under 5hd. That being said - I know the player well and he will not slay a creture if he cannot detect evil and/or catch it commiting an evil act. The party would argue with the paladin that the kobolds are redeemable regardless of what pre-conceived notion the palaldin has of them.

Thanks all!

[cibet44]

Gunny wrote:

Hi all,

He thinks that as an evil creature he should slay the *** and eradicate the ***.

Remember that alignment has TWO parts in this case: "Lawful" AND "Good". Do the local laws and treaties allow murder without a trial or at least a judgment from some authority? The Paladin is LAWFUL so he is bound to the laws of the current land he is in. Paladins don't go around slaying things when the local laws have things like sheriffs and jails.

Arresting the evil creature would be OK (assuming it broke a LAW) but just slaying it unprovoked is murder regardless of its alignment. Lawful is a knife that should cut both ways.

[wraithstrike]

Gunny wrote:

Hi all,

I need some help adjudicating the following issue. The party I DM has a paladin of Erastil.

** spoiler omitted **

If the alliance from the party's PoV is better in the long run he should go with it. Having an alliance is better than having enemies. One thing he will learn as a paladin is that sometimes the morally right option is not available, and he will have to choose the lesser of two evils. In such cases he should choose the lesser evil, and then seek atonement.

[Dire Mongoose]

cibet44 wrote:

Arresting the evil creature would be OK (assuming it broke a LAW) but just slaying it unprovoked is murder regardless of its alignment. Lawful is a knife that should cut both ways.

The start of Kingmaker's kind of an odd duck in that respect in that the PCs are essentially playing sheriff to some degree and have vested in them the authority to dispense low and high justice.

There's no jail to speak of, and the person they'd turn a criminal over to is themselves.

[Caineach]

There are plenty of other groups on here that have allied themselves with the sootscales. A couple have even converted them to new faiths. I would support a Paladin choosing any path here, but if the player wants to go along with the other player's plan but thinks it is not the Paladin thing to do, I would just point out to him that redeming evil is a greater good than slaying it, and let him take it from there.

And the pathfinder version of the Paladin code has been loosened in this regard. The new wording is not as strict with who he keeps as allies, and does not prevent him from making short term alliances and working with known evils for what he believes is a greater good.

[thenovalord]

I do think this is the one issue I have with the KM AP, which is otherwise, fab.

1. Everyone in Brevoy is pretty much CN
2. They want to go forth and forge a new kingdom...which doesnt sound chaotic really
3. the main God of the Mods is LG, and also into rural / cottage industries...not vast development and expansion.
4. Their is Potential to make LE to CG/CN allies

i think if they had made Brevoy LN by default, and therefore able to do business with everyone who wishes to forge a kingdom , it would be better

[Turin the Mad]

thenovalord wrote:

I do think this is the one issue I have with the KM AP, which is otherwise, fab.

1. Everyone in Brevoy is pretty much CN
2. They want to go forth and forge a new kingdom...which doesnt sound chaotic really
3. the main God of the Mods is LG, and also into rural / cottage industries...not vast development and expansion.
4. Their is Potential to make LE to CG/CN allies

i think if they had made Brevoy LN by default, and therefore able to do business with everyone who wishes to forge a kingdom , it would be better

Brevoy has three primary faiths:

Abadar - the nobles and higher social strata population

Pharasma - everyone else urban and suburban, especially the impoverished

Erastil - rural

[thenovalord]

Turin the Mad wrote:

Brevoy has three primary faiths:

Abadar - the nobles and higher social strata population

Pharasma - everyone else urban and suburban, especially the impoverished

Erastil - rural

yep but Erastil is a main thrust.

He is LG

no one else is, except the other odd clerics of Erastil!

[Grendel Todd]

Turin the Mad wrote:

thenovalord wrote:

I do think this is the one issue I have with the KM AP, which is otherwise, fab.

1. Everyone in Brevoy is pretty much CN
2. They want to go forth and forge a new kingdom...which doesnt sound chaotic really
3. the main God of the Mods is LG, and also into rural / cottage industries...not vast development and expansion.
4. Their is Potential to make LE to CG/CN allies

i think if they had made Brevoy LN by default, and therefore able to do business with everyone who wishes to forge a kingdom , it would be better

Brevoy has three primary faiths:

Abadar - the nobles and higher social strata population

Pharasma - everyone else urban and suburban, especially the impoverished

Erastil - rural

Actually, the three primary faiths in Brevoy are Gorum (as patron to nobles & warfare), Abadar (patron for the middle/merchant classes), and Pharasma (patron for the commoners/serfs, because life is suffering and then you die). Erastil & Lamashtu are notable as rare exceptions - Erastil as popular for provincial border settlements, and Lamashtu for being outlawed.

It has however been pointed out several times in the forums that the PCs can promote what ever faith they like, especially given though the charter for the colony may come from Brevoy, the PCs might not. The AP seems to favor Erastil, especially early on, because of the host of Erastil-related ruins that crop up (not to mention a notable npc or two, there to promote excavation of said ruins), as well as nice article covering the Horned One. Gorum also gets some love later on, while Gyrrona seems set up to be a reoccurring source of antagonism.

My impression of Brevoy's being CN has always been that it is a land in political turmoil, on the threshold of revolution/revolt, rather than that everyone there is CN. Many are good, many are bad, many are law-abiding, many are taking advantage of law falling apart.

Spoiler:

Remember, it's the Swordlords of Restov (NOT the current King of Brevoy) making a play for political advantage that gets the heroes going at the start of this, and it's only because of difficulties back home between the rival factions that the PCs get as much leeway in developing their kingdom as they do.

[Turin the Mad]

D'oh! *facepalms* I mis-remembered the important parts. Must be transplanting home game stuff into "canon".