Hellbound: Tools for Tomorrow's Tyrants offers some help for the Hellishly inclined.
While I like the feats and powers I have to wonder at giving us this sort of thing as useful as it could be. The Character Builder is so dominant as a means to play the game that I question the usability of anything like powers that can't be part of the DDI. I tend to think that most articles should instead focus on things that either the DDI does not do or it does only very marginally.
I mean I read them, I even like them but I won't use them because they are not in the Character Builder and doing so adds a pretty exceptional work load to what is normally a fairly easy process of creating a character. I'd have to make some home made cards and type them out on the word processor etc. Its a lot of work and one few 4E players are going to go through.
I mean if you gave me monster powers I'd have to work but at least I have a program for adding monsters. Alternativly building things that don't get into this area. I'm always looking for more traps and hazards for example. More ambitiously WotC has not released another AP after Scales of War. There is a whole in the market there, especially with Scales of War showing its age (or more accurately showing that is was made for the early parts) before 4E even released and mechanics and play balance are simply off a lot.
Stuff seen above
Jeremy hit the nail on that one. It may be really cool, but if it's not in the CB, I won't use it.
While I like the feats and powers I have to wonder at giving us this sort of thing as useful as it could be. The Character Builder is so dominant as a means to play the game that I question the usability of anything like powers that can't be part of the DDI. I tend to think that most articles should instead focus on things that either the DDI does not do or it does only very marginally.
I mean I read them, I even like them but I won't use them because they are not in the Character Builder and doing so adds a pretty exceptional work load to what is normally a fairly easy process of creating a character. I'd have to make some home made cards and type them out on the word processor etc. Its a lot of work and one few 4E players are going to go through.
I mean if you gave me monster powers I'd have to work but at least I have a program for adding monsters. Alternativly building things that don't get into this area. I'm always looking for more traps and hazards for example. More ambitiously WotC has not released another AP after Scales of War. There is a whole in the market there, especially with Scales of War showing its age (or more accurately showing that is was made for the early parts) before 4E even released and mechanics and play balance are simply off a lot.
Well OK,
It is good to see that you like them, it saddens me to see that you cannot use them.
I don't use the Character Builder myself and I am sort of wondering if my DM uses it or something similiar (is there something similiar?).
I'll give the rest of your points some thought and will respond to them at a later time.
I am guessing that most 3rd party products will fall in the above categories? Meaning that WotC has you locked into using the Character Builder or DDI?
Anyway, my thoughts!
-I like the feel of the powers overall. Some of them feel not quite balanced, but I'd still likely make use of them with a few changes:
-Domineering Gaze feels potentially a bit strong as a power, since it adds 2 stats. It is basically a higher-damage version of Hellish Rebuke, a striker power. I'd say remove the +Charisma damage from the initial hit, but keep it on the retributive power, and it would feel just right to me.
-Submit to Me: -2 to hit is a big deal, and +2 damage (and prone on a crit) doesn't quite justify it. Make it only -1 to hit, and make the damage bonus scale (+2/+4 at 11/+6 at 21) and now we're talking.
-Reign of Terror is pretty cool. I'd make it a free action instead of an immediate, though, so you can use it when you intimidate someone yourself.
Concerning domineering gaze: when I designed it, I compared it to hellish rebuke and reduced the damage die to 1d4 to compensate for the extra damage that the two abilities would generate + I also believed that the charisma damage would always be less than the wisdom damage so that it would even out eventually.
Submit to me: I have no problem with that. Why didn't I do that? Perhaps it was the wordcount ;>
Reign of terror: I chose immediate action so that you can only do it once per round. I'll check my books and get back to you on that.
Reign of terror: I chose immediate action so that you can only do it once per round. I'll check my books and get back to you on that.
Unless, WotC changed the use of immediate reactions I see no reason why you cannot intimidate someone and then in reaction to that spend a healing surge.
Well OK,It is good to see that you like them, it saddens me to see that you cannot use them.
I don't use the Character Builder myself and I am sort of wondering if my DM uses it or something similiar (is there something similiar?).
I'll give the rest of your points some thought and will respond to them at a later time.
I am guessing that most 3rd party products will fall in the above categories? Meaning that WotC has you locked into using the Character Builder or DDI?
I'd definitely say that WotC has me locked into using the Character Builder. My suspicion is that its near universal with 4E players. I'm unaware of any hardcore 4E player that frequents these boards that does not use it - I'd be surprised to go to WotCs site and find that there was anything but a small minority there as well. In fact we talk to each other on the presumption that you have and use it...occasionally getting into slight mix ups with 4E dabblers who don't have and use it.
Its already pretty tough trying to get D&D players to look at a 3rd party product. Doing something that exists outside of the CB (but that would be part of the CB if WotC did it) just seems to add another level of difficulty. I'm simply suggesting you'll get better results by creating content in areas that WotC is either not doing or is not doing particularly comprehensibly, for example monster ecologies.
I am guessing that most 3rd party products will fall in the above categories? Meaning that WotC has you locked into using the Character Builder or DDI?
I'd definitely say that WotC has me locked into using the Character Builder. My suspicion is that its near universal with 4E players. I'm unaware of any hardcore 4E player that frequents these boards that does not use it - I'd be suprised to go to WotCs site and find that there was anything but a small minority there as well. In fact we talk to each other on the presumption that you have and use it...occasionally getting into slight mix ups with 4E dabblers who don't have and use it.
Its already pretty tough trying to get D&D players to look at a 3rd party product. Doing something that exists outside of the CB just seems to add another level of difficulty. I'm simply suggesting you'll get better results by creating content in areas that WotC is either not doing or is not doing particularly comprehensibly, for example monster ecologies.
That is interesting, I admit I dabble with 4e. I am going to re-check my last few copies of Kobold Quarterly to see if Wolfgang and company have also figured out the DDI / CB dominion - kind of guessing he has, because, well, this is his business, and it sort of explains why the article ended up on the internet and not in print ;> (besides ofcourse being about clerics of Hell - not exactly a big selling point)
Actually it was considered for the fall and winter issues, it got rejected and I couldn't get it in print elsewhere, so why not share it with the public? That the public can't be bothered to print something out and keep with their charactersheet is something else entirely.
Charactersheets, are they still being used? Or is everything now online, in the CB?
Charactersheets, are they still being used? Or is everything now online, in the CB?
Every level go to the CB, I click level up, I make a few choices depending on what I just picked up at this level and I print out a new character sheet. I happily toss my (by now stained and somewhat marked up) character sheet from last level into the recycling bin. I cut my powers out (they came with the character sheet print out) and I replace all my power cards with the new cards except in circumstances where absolutely nothing mechanical has changed and the old card is still looking pretty mint.
I'll use this character sheet until I level up again.
The unwillingness to use material not included in the Character Builder confounds me. If it's good material, who cares where it is? Really? Printing and carrying something with your sheet is that tough?
Personally, I'm all for using the CB, but if you really want to incorporate some 3PP material, Hero Lab is extensible where the CB is not. *shrug* There's just too much good material out there to ignore it, although I might be considered biased.
-Ben.
The unwillingness to use material not included in the Character Builder confounds me. If it's good material, who cares where it is? Really? Printing and carrying something with your sheet is that tough?
Personally, I'm all for using the CB, but if you really want to incorporate some 3PP material, Hero Lab is extensible where the CB is not. *shrug* There's just too much good material out there to ignore it, although I might be considered biased.
-Ben.
Of course with Hero Lab you don't get the Monster Builder, Dragon & Dungeon magazine and most important of all, the Compendium. I'm sure Hero Lab does a good job making 4E characters but it too much of an investment, for me, to spend money on.
The unwillingness to use material not included in the Character Builder confounds me. If it's good material, who cares where it is? Really? Printing and carrying something with your sheet is that tough?
Its not a completely simple issue in most cases. First your going to have to use some kind of 'holding power' in the character builder meaning your creating a character sheet that is actually wrong and then jury rigging it to get it back to legal. Next your not talking about printing something out and then just holding on to it for the rest of the campaign. Your going to have to update your third party power every level or two just like you do with the rest of your powers but because its not automated your going to have to do it via arts and crafts and personal calculation of the numbers. You'll actually spend more time with your 3PP power then with the rest of your character combined.
Then we get to the DM. Not sure about your campaign but many DMs like to look over their players sheets...super easy with the character builder - your players email you their builds and its done...unless there are 3PP powers in their - then the players character on the CB and his 'real' character is different and if the DM is to understand it he'll have to do everything manually and will need the player to clearly outline what powers and such are 'fake' they are place holders for the 'real' powers. So your using 3PP stuff makes life a chore for your DM - hardly a good place to start in winning hearts and minds.
Next up your DM needs to really trust all his players to allow any of them to use this stuff (unless showing favoritism is not an issue). With players working everything out by hand - so the DM needs to be sure that all the players are good at calculating this sort of thing.
Finally the DM just gave up one of the big selling points of 4E for DMs - the anal retentive way WotC tries to preserve play balance. While its not perfect its pretty impressive and there is no feeling that any 3PP source is going to be going back to its articles in a years time and correcting them for play balance.
All and all its a fair bit of work. Most people are unwilling to spend and extra 50 minutes for a single power every time they update their character sheet - its just not worth it to them even if the DM allows it.
Herolab is good but keep in mind that if you want to keep it updated you still need to subscribe to the DDI. You just need Herolab on top of that. Furthermore the downloading process to update Herolab is purported to be really, really, long....I mean like 8-12 hours long.
It makes its downloads by copying the entire WotC database off their site but needs to do so very slowly because if it just sucked the compendium dry it'd nearly shut WotCs server down for 3 minutes...needless to say WotC admins would go 'WTF?' find out who just spiked their system and block the IP address . So Herolab goes in and grabs a piece of data...and then waits for 20 seconds before grabbing the next piece so that WotC never sees a surge and never bothers blocking the IP address. Once Herolab has the whole compendium it basically looks through it for changes and implements those changes.
Finally the DM just gave up one of the big selling points of 4E for DMs - the anal retentive way WotC tries to preserve play balance. While its not perfect its pretty impressive and there is no feeling that any 3PP source is going to be going back to its articles in a years time and correcting them for play balance.
All and all its a fair bit of work. Most people are unwilling to spend and extra 50 minutes for a single power every time they update their character sheet - its just not worth it to them even if the DM allows it.
Herolab is good but keep in mind that if you want to keep it updated you still need to subscribe to the DDI. You just need Herolab on top of that. Furthermore the downloading process to update Herolab is purported to be really, really, long....I mean like 8-12 hours long.
Actually, no, it doesn't take that long. I did a review of Hero Lab for KQ, and looked at 4E options. It was not a crazy long process to download, but I did need an account to pull things from the Compendium-- and it does have its weaknesses, the skill tricks don't make it over, because they're in the Compendium and not the CB. It can hang, you just restart. I think it took perhaps 15 minutes.
And we're talking about a game where there's a lot of math involved...I... I guess I don't know what to say. At my tables, it's usually been something along the lines of:
Player: "I want to try X, Y, and Z? Cool?"
GM: "Let me take a look." *barring anything really weird* "Ok, sure, let's try it. But if it seems unbalanced, we're going to modify it."
Player: "Cool, works for me."
GM: "Great! Everyone ready? And. Away. We. Go."
But really, this is not about Hero Lab. It's about 3PP material. I freely admit my bias-- I do occasional freelance work over at Kobold Quarterly and hop the fence between the 4E and Pathfinder stuff quite a bit. I think 3PP stuff can be just as good (I know we did a *lot* of playtesting for the _Iron Gazetteer_), presuming folks are willing to step away from the CB and spin up a character by hand. I don't see the 50 minutes of recalculation you do when updating my character, but that may just be me.
-Ben.
It makes its downloads by copying the entire WotC database off their site but needs to do so very slowly because if it just sucked the compendium dry it'd nearly shut WotCs server down for 3 minutes...needless to say WotC admins would go 'WTF?' find out who just spiked their system and block the IP address . So Herolab goes in and grabs a piece of data...and then waits for 20 seconds before grabbing the next piece so that WotC never sees a surge and never bothers blocking the IP address. Once Herolab has the whole compendium it basically looks through it for changes and implements those changes.
wow. That sounds vaguely illegal. Shouldn't the devs of Hero Lab be paying WotC for doing this? Guess if they can get away with it its A-Ok right?
Ben, so we are clear, I have no issues with 3PP in general, I was a big fan of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. I also just want to use the CB for charater creation because from a DM's point of view, I feel there is already enough options in the CB already to not want to bother with 3PP character options. If a player came to me and really wanted to try this option, I'd give it a quick once over and let them try it, but I do not seek out this kind of work. Of my gaming group and the 13 or so players who have played in it, none of them have been interested in 3PP products. I am more interested in other products from 3PP like adventures and new and iteresting parts of them like monsters, skill challenges, and traps/hazards.
Of my gaming group and the 13 or so players who have played in it, none of them have been interested in 3PP products. I am more interested in other products from 3PP like adventures and new and iteresting parts of them like monsters, skill challenges, and traps/hazards.
13! That's fantastic! :) I'm fairly jealous, it's been forever since I could muster up a group like that.
But you also bring up a good point-- has anyone here checked out 3PP adventures for 4E? I know there's the stuff we've done over at Open Design, there was a pretty cool kickstarter project for a conquistador adventure path, but who else is putting out 4E adventures? How are the Goodman games offerings? (I thought that was going to be where they were going?)
-Ben.
But you also bring up a good point-- has anyone here checked out 3PP adventures for 4E? I know there's the stuff we've done over at Open Design, there was a pretty cool kickstarter project for a conquistador adventure path, but who else is putting out 4E adventures? How are the Goodman games offerings? (I thought that was going to be where they were going?)
Actually, you don't even need 3pp adventures specifically for 4E. Monster 'conversion' is so simply it can be done on the fly, or with such minimal preparation it doesn't really matter next to time required to read the adventure.
13! That's fantastic! :) I'm fairly jealous, it's been forever since I could muster up a group like that.
Well, I'd best clarify that, I have had 13 different players in the life of my current campaign. I currently have 5 players, only 1 of whom has been there throughtout the entire game, from 1st to 14th.
As for 3PP Goodman does them. I did use "Mists of Madness", with a bit of modification to fit my homebrew.
The Open Design project is a great idea and one I would certainly patron, if I had more free time to participate (family life, work, online gaming addiction, etc).
wow. That sounds vaguely illegal. Shouldn't the devs of Hero Lab be paying WotC for doing this? Guess if they can get away with it its A-Ok right?It makes its downloads by copying the entire WotC database off their site but needs to do so very slowly because if it just sucked the compendium dry it'd nearly shut WotCs server down for 3 minutes...needless to say WotC admins would go 'WTF?' find out who just spiked their system and block the IP address . So Herolab goes in and grabs a piece of data...and then waits for 20 seconds before grabbing the next piece so that WotC never sees a surge and never bothers blocking the IP address. Once Herolab has the whole compendium it basically looks through it for changes and implements those changes.
The user has paid for a subscription fee, Hero labs just provides a way for people to use data from some RPG of their choice - same as your word processor. I'm pretty sure there is nothing inherently illegal about this. Even sucking the server dry for three minutes would probably not be illegal in and of itself it'd just piss off WotC who would invoke the part of the contract that you agreed to when you signed up for the DDI that says they can cut you off for any reason or no reason at all.
In any case Terraleon is saying he did not see that so it may have been improved. I just know of it from forums when I was considering Herolab some time back and the forums basically reported this as the case and explained why it was so. The gist being Herolab does not have WotCs code so it needs the whole data set and does updates by implementing the differences.