Please evaluate and critique.
Shapechanger
You may be the offspring of a doppleganger or infused with shadow essence. Whatever the cause, your form has become highly amorphous and you can take on new shapes as easily as putting on new clothes.
Class Skill: Linguistics
Bonus Spells: Beast Shape 1 (3rd), Elemental Body 1 (4th), Plant Shape 1 (5th), Form of the Dragon 1 (6th), Giant Form 1 (7th), Iron Body (8th), Shapechange (9th)
Bonus Feats
Toughness, Improved Disarm, Alertness, Deceitful, Extend Spell, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Disguise), Quickness
Bloodline Arcana
Any spell you cast on yourself and only yourself has it's duration extended by 100%.
Bloodline Powers:
1st Adaptation - You are treated as if having Endure Elements. At 7th level, you are treated as if having resistance to energy (it takes one full round action to change the energy you are resistant to).
3rd The stuff that dreams are made of - Each day, the Sorcerer can choose one of the five attributes (str, dex, int, wis, or con) and that one attribute is set for the day as equal to his charisma
9th Many Forms - For any spell which the Sorcerer casts to change his form (and no one else's), the spell level modifier for Quickness is reduced by 3. This includes spells like Ethereal Jaunt.
15th Occult Thoughts - Due to the Sorcerer's increasingly amorphous mind, divination spells and charms which attempt to influence or detect him become harder and harder to work. This works as a 5% chance per level of having the affect of a Mind Blank spell against any appropriate affect.
20th Plane Walker - The Sorcerer is perfectly at home on any plane. He is treated as having planar adaptation no matter what plane he is on. Further, he is treated as having the Tongues spell in permanent effect.
LilithsThrall wrote: 3rd The stuff that dreams are made of - Each day, the Sorcerer can choose one of the five attributes (str, dex, int, wis, or con) and that one attribute is set for the day as equal to his charisma I lol'd. :D
Hate to say it, but I don't really like it. But it is onlly minor things. For instance, the bloodline arcana covers a very wide berth of spells. Everything from mage armor to fly and fire shield. While some of these spells, like Enlarge Person, make sense, others do not. What I suggest is changing it to something like: A SOR can choose for any spell that effects him physicaly to have its duration extended by 100%. This allows him to use the polymorph spells, still get this bonus from spells like Mass Bull's Strength, and avoid extending spells like Baleful Polymorph.
Secondly, Adaptation needs a number affixed to it. In my mind, the resistance should also level up (slowly) with the character.
Just my two-cents, hope it was useful.
Sphen86 wrote: Hate to say it, but I don't really like it. But it is onlly minor things. For instance, the bloodline arcana covers a very wide berth of spells. Everything from mage armor to fly and fire shield. While some of these spells, like Enlarge Person, make sense, others do not. What I suggest is changing it to something like: A SOR can choose for any spell that effects him physicaly to have its duration extended by 100%. This allows him to use the polymorph spells, still get this bonus from spells like Mass Bull's Strength, and avoid extending spells like Baleful Polymorph.
Secondly, Adaptation needs a number affixed to it. In my mind, the resistance should also level up (slowly) with the character.
Just my two-cents, hope it was useful.
Well, the whole point of posting it was to get constructive feedback. For example, I hadn't considered that the bloodline arcana would apply to things like mage armor and fly. That's not what was intended.
As for the resistance, I was afraid the bloodline would be too powerful as is. But, if not, the resistance could be changed. Perhaps the resistance provides 10 points of resistance at 7th level and 1 more point per every other level?
Okay, how's this?
Shapechanger
You may be the offspring of a doppleganger or infused with shadow essence. Whatever the cause, your form has become highly amorphous and you can take on new shapes as easily as putting on new clothes.
Class Skill: Linguistics
Bonus Spells: Beast Shape 1 (3rd), Elemental Body 1 (4th), Plant Shape 1 (5th), Form of the Dragon 1 (6th), Giant Form 1 (7th), Iron Body (8th), Shapechange (9th)
Bonus Feats
Toughness, Improved Disarm, Alertness, Deceitful, Extend Spell, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Disguise), Quickness
Bloodline Arcana
You may choose to have any spell you cast on yourself and only yourself which changes your form and/or changes your attributes to have it's duration increased by 100%.
Bloodline Powers:
1st Adaptation - You are treated as if having Endure Elements. At 7th level, you are treated as if having resistance to energy (it takes one full round action to change the energy you are resistant to). Your resistance increases by +1/every two levels after 7th. Also, you are considered a natural shapeshifter for all applicable rules.
3rd The stuff that dreams are made of - Each day, the Sorcerer can choose one of the five attributes (str, dex, int, wis, or con) and that one attribute is set for the day as equal to his charisma
9th Many Forms - For any spell which the Sorcerer casts to change his form (and no one else's), the spell level modifier for Quickness is reduced by 3. This includes spells like Ethereal Jaunt.
15th Occult Thoughts - Due to the Sorcerer's increasingly amorphous mind, divination spells and charms which attempt to influence or detect him become harder and harder to work. This works as a 5% chance per level of having the affect of a Mind Blank spell against any appropriate affect.
20th Plane Walker - The Sorcerer is perfectly at home on any plane. He is treated as having planar adaptation no matter what plane he is on. Further, he is treated as having the Tongues spell in permanent effect.
This forum is terrible. Pure crap. So let me rewrite this.
LilithsThrall wrote:
Well, the whole point of posting it was to get constructive feedback. For example, I hadn't considered that the bloodline arcana would apply to things like mage armor and fly. That's not what was intended.
You should have been more specific, so let me fix it.
Quote: Bonus Feats
Toughness, Improved Disarm, Alertness, Deceitful, Extend Spell, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Disguise), Quickness
Improved Disarm and Alertness don't fit. Skill Focus (Diplomacy) should be Skill Focus (Bluff), and I don't even know what Quickness is.
Quote: Bloodline Arcana
Any spell you cast on yourself and only yourself has it's duration extended by 100%.
Better is "Any transmutation (polymorph) spell affecting you has its duration extended by 100%.
Quote: 1st Adaptation - You are treated as if having Endure Elements. And for how long?
Quote: At 7th level, you are treated as if having resistance to energy (it takes one full round action to change the energy you are resistant to). For how long and for how much?
Quote: 3rd The stuff that dreams are made of - Each day, the Sorcerer can choose one of the five attributes (str, dex, int, wis, or con) and that one attribute is set for the day as equal to his charisma This is crazy broken.
Instead it should be something like: For X rounds a day, you may choose to be affected by Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, or Eagle's Splendor. You must make this choice at the beginning of each day and cannot change it until the next day.
Quote: 9th Many Forms - For any spell which the Sorcerer casts to change his form (and no one else's), the spell level modifier for Quickness is reduced by 3. This includes spells like Ethereal Jaunt. What the hell is Quickness?
Quote: 15th Occult Thoughts - Due to the Sorcerer's increasingly amorphous mind, divination spells and charms which attempt to influence or detect him become harder and harder to work. This works as a 5% chance per level of having the affect of a Mind Blank spell against any appropriate affect. This does not fit the theme and doesn't make sense besides.
Quote: 20th Plane Walker - The Sorcerer is perfectly at home on any plane. He is treated as having planar adaptation no matter what plane he is on. Further, he is treated as having the Tongues spell in permanent effect. That is the Planar Shepard, not Master of Many Forms. You want something like: Shifting Form - you can use Alter Self at will as a Supernatural ability; you are not affected by any polymorph spell or effect you are not willing to accept; when affected by a transmutation (polymorph) spell, you can shift between forms for the duration of the spell similar to Shapechange but limited to creatures you can normally shift into using the spell you are affected by.
Thanks, Cartigan.
I agree with most (but not all) of your suggestions and am evaluating the next version based on what you said.
A quick couple of points
1.) My original version of "what dreams are made of" was very similar to your suggestion. But it seems too weak and the version I ended up with doesn't seem as powerful to me as it does at first thought. I'm still exploring the issue.
2.) "Quicken" is "Quicken spell"
Hm, if I'd thought that being such a jack___ was the best way to go about say things, oh the things I would be able to write. Cartigan, you're a jerk. These forums are not here for you to be rude to people, they're for those with more expierance to help those with less. If you think something is amiss, just say it instead of insulting.
Sphen86 wrote: Hm, if I'd thought that being such a jack___ was the best way to go about say things, oh the things I would be able to write. Cartigan, you're a jerk. These forums are not here for you to be rude to people, they're for those with more expierance to help those with less. If you think something is amiss, just say it instead of insulting. Cartigan can't help himself. I used to get upset by it, but now I think it's a learning disability - maybe aspergers.
Once again, thanks, Cartigan. I've taken your suggestions and applied them to the revision.
Some of your suggestions I don't agree with, though. For example, I'm just not convinced that "The stuff that dreams are made of" is as broken as it looks. Even if the sorcerer bumped up another stat, I'm not convinced that the sorcerer is in danger of stealing anyone else's thunder. The ability just gives him some boost in assuming another form (such as going into melee).
As for Plane Walker, I really don't care about the Planar Shepherd, it's a non concern. The Sorcerer doesn't need an always available Alter Self. At 20th level, considering he's already learned alter self as a 2nd level spell, he's kinda got that already. But planer adaptation reflects his ability to make physiological/mental changes which help him survive in alien environments.
As for "Occult Thoughts", I don't really understand your objection to it. Perhaps if you explained more.
Taking suggestions from Cartigan, here's the most recent version. Note that I'm looking for a replacement feat for Improved Disarm. Suggestions are welcome.
Shapechanger 
You may be the offspring of a doppleganger or infused with shadow essence. Whatever the cause, your form has become highly amorphous and you can take on new shapes as easily as putting on new clothes.
Class Skill: Linguistics
Bonus Spells: Beast Shape 1 (3rd), Elemental Body 1 (4th), Plant Shape 1 (5th), Form of the Dragon 1 (6th), Giant Form 1 (7th), Iron Body (8th), Shapechange (9th)
Bonus Feats 
Toughness, x, Alertness, Deceitful, Extend Spell, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Disguise), Quicken Spell
Bloodline Arcana 
You may choose to have any spell you cast on yourself and only yourself which changes your form and/or changes your attributes to have it's duration increased by 100%.
Bloodline Powers: 
1st Adaptation - You are treated as if having Endure Elements on at all times. At 7th level, you are treated as if having resistance to energy (it takes one full round action to change the energy you are resistant to) at all times. Your resistance increases by +1/every two levels after 7th. Also, you are considered a natural shapeshifter for all applicable rules.
3rd The stuff that dreams are made of - Each day, the Sorcerer can choose one of the five attributes (str, dex, int, wis, or con) and that one attribute is set for the day as equal to his charisma
9th Many Forms - For any spell which the Sorcerer casts to change his form (and no one else's), the spell level modifier for Quicken Spell is reduced by 3. This includes spells like Ethereal Jaunt.
15th Occult Thoughts - Due to the Sorcerer's increasingly amorphous mind, divination spells and charms which attempt to influence or detect him become harder and harder to work. This works as a 5% chance per level of having the affect of a Mind Blank spell against any appropriate affect.
20th Plane Walker - The Sorcerer is perfectly at home on any plane. He is treated as having planar adaptation no matter what plane he is on. Further, he is treated as having the Tongues spell in permanent effect.
LilithsThrall wrote:
As for Plane Walker, I really don't care about the Planar Shepherd, it's a non concern. The Sorcerer doesn't need an always available Alter Self. At 20th level, considering he's already learned alter self as a 2nd level spell, he's kinda got that already. But planer adaptation reflects his ability to make physiological/mental changes which help him survive in alien environments.
That was my point. It doesn't fit. All the other bloodlines, the 20th level 'ability' is more of a change to the creature type without changing type. My applied changes were to give the Sorcerer the Shapechanger subtype without making it a Shapechanger.
Quote: As for "Occult Thoughts", I don't really understand your objection to it. Perhaps if you explained more. It doesn't fit the theme. I don't get it.
Cartigan wrote:
That was my point. It doesn't fit. All the other bloodlines, the 20th level 'ability' is more of a change to the creature type without changing type. My applied changes were to give the Sorcerer the Shapechanger subtype without making it a Shapechanger.
Quote:
It doesn't fit the theme. I don't get it.
The theme is all about removing the restrictions of form - becoming formless, amorphous, in all meanings of the word. The theme is not just about changing physical shape. The mind and spirit become every bit as formless and ephemeral as the body does. All manner of definition melt away and the character achieves formless form. Being bound to one plane is form. Being able to transcend that plane and live on all planes as a native is going beyond that form. Likewise, the character's thoughts become every bit as formless and trying to read that mind or control it is much like trying to shape void itself.
Why Linguistics as a class skill instead of Disguise?
I feel the theme better lends itself to Disguise.
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote: Why Linguistics as a class skill instead of Disguise?
I feel the theme better lends itself to Disguise.
In some sense, it was a coin toss. But a shape shifter is as likely to be found amongst a group of gnolls as at the king's court - the same shape shifter that is. A Master of Many Forms should be perfectly capable of walking into a Genie's palace or a Hill Giant's hovel and passing himself off as belonging there. Linguistics is necessary for that.
LilithsThrall wrote: Alexander Kilcoyne wrote: Why Linguistics as a class skill instead of Disguise?
I feel the theme better lends itself to Disguise.
In some sense, it was a coin toss. But a shape shifter is as likely to be found amongst a group of gnolls as at the king's court - the same shape shifter that is. A Master of Many Forms should be perfectly capable of walking into a Genie's palace or a Hill Giant's hovel and passing himself off as belonging there. Linguistics is necessary for that. But that use of the Skill doesn't really need it to be a class skill. You still have to put a point in it to learn a language. I'd agree with Disguise.
LilithsThrall wrote: Alexander Kilcoyne wrote: Why Linguistics as a class skill instead of Disguise?
I feel the theme better lends itself to Disguise.
In some sense, it was a coin toss. But a shape shifter is as likely to be found amongst a group of gnolls as at the king's court - the same shape shifter that is. A Master of Many Forms should be perfectly capable of walking into a Genie's palace or a Hill Giant's hovel and passing himself off as belonging there. Linguistics is necessary for that. Disguise is pretty much a shapeshifting classic though.
And while I concede your point, the shapeshifter isn't going to know more or less languages dependent on whether Linguistics is a class skill or not as its dependent on ranks.
Ninjaed!
I didn't realize that whether it's a class skill or not has no affect on learning languages.
Okay, disguise makes more sense.
The primary point of Linguistics as a class skill now is that it replaced Decipher Script.
Sorry, but The Stuff... is too powerful, no matter how you look at it. It is ten times better than the Transmuter Specialist Wizard power, as you can dump a stat and use this to offset that.
Let's say I made a sorcerer with this bloodline (20-point buy), with Cha 20 (with +2 human bonus) and put 7 in Str*, I could use this ability to get Str 20, while still getting 4 extra points to buy the other stats up.
I'd suggest giving them the Transmuter power, or perhaps a slightly beefed up version of it, instead.
* = Could be any of the five stats.
Kalev Lehola wrote: Sorry, but The Stuff... is too powerful, no matter how you look at it. It is ten times better than the Transmuter Specialist Wizard power, as you can dump a stat and use this to offset that.
Let's say I made a sorcerer with this bloodline (20-point buy), with Cha 20 (with +2 human bonus) and put 7 in Str*, I could use this ability to get Str 20, while still getting 4 extra points to buy the other stats up.
I'd suggest giving them the Transmuter power, or perhaps a slightly beefed up version of it, instead.
* = Could be any of the five stats.
If you do the dump stat thing, you are nerfing yourself as you lose the flexibility of being able to change what stat you boost with this ability. Because doing the nerd stat thing is actually suboptimal, I wouldn't worry about it. Or do you think the flexibility to change which stat you boost isn't so valuable?
Kalev Lehola wrote: Sorry, but The Stuff... is too powerful, no matter how you look at it. It is ten times better than the Transmuter Specialist Wizard power, as you can dump a stat and use this to offset that.
Let's say I made a sorcerer with this bloodline (20-point buy), with Cha 20 (with +2 human bonus) and put 7 in Str*, I could use this ability to get Str 20, while still getting 4 extra points to buy the other stats up.
I'd suggest giving them the Transmuter power, or perhaps a slightly beefed up version of it, instead.
* = Could be any of the five stats.
Which is why I made the suggestion of mimicing one of the enhancement spells for X rounds a day. It's not mimicing the Transmuter ability and fits better and isn't overpowered.
LilithsThrall wrote: Kalev Lehola wrote: Sorry, but The Stuff... is too powerful, no matter how you look at it. It is ten times better than the Transmuter Specialist Wizard power, as you can dump a stat and use this to offset that.
Let's say I made a sorcerer with this bloodline (20-point buy), with Cha 20 (with +2 human bonus) and put 7 in Str*, I could use this ability to get Str 20, while still getting 4 extra points to buy the other stats up.
I'd suggest giving them the Transmuter power, or perhaps a slightly beefed up version of it, instead.
* = Could be any of the five stats.
If you do the dump stat thing, you are nerfing yourself as you lose the flexibility of being able to change what stat you boost with this ability. Because doing the nerd stat thing is actually suboptimal, I wouldn't worry about it. Or do you think the flexibility to change which stat you boost isn't so valuable? Sorry, that should have read, "Because doing the dump stat thing is actually suboptimal.." I actually wrote "nerf stat" (which was wrong) and my IPhone's auto-correct changed it to "nerd stat" (which is funny).
Given that dump stats aren't actually an issue with this power (unless you prefer sub-optimal builds) and that's the thing I saw you base your criticism on, I still don't understand what the power's perceived problem is.
Can someone explain further?
Let's say that the character is 5th level and changes into a bear using Beast Shape. I think it's fair to assume that the character is planning to go into melee.* Without this power, can he actually survive melee? I mean, the whole point of being able to change into a bear is to be able to enter melee, so, can he pull it off?
Actually, no. He uses Beast Shape and he gets only +2 to Str and +2 to AC. Consider, as a Sorcerer, his hit points, his strength, and his BAB are subpar for a melee-er. The bonuses provided by the Beast Shape spell are simply not enough to have him survive melee. So, the whole classic trope of the shapechanger changing into a beast to enter melee simply -isn't- going to work.
Will it work if, instead, he gets a +4 to strength? No, the bonus still isn't enough. What if he can set his strength equal to his charisma? Then, he likely has the same strength as the Fighter. Is it enough? Well, the Fighter is going to have more hit points certainly and the Fighter is going to do more damage almost certainly, and the Fighter might even have a better AC, and, of course, the Fighter has those combat feats, but can the shapechanger actually maintain himself in melee? The shapechanger certainly isn't going to be stealing the Fighter's thunder, but he can (arguably) maintain himself in melee.
*Also, note that almost all of his bloodline spells prohibit spell casting (e.g. you can't cast when you are in bear shape - sorcerers can't get natural spell and it'd be against concept if they could, so I'm not giving it to them - that leaves non-spell combat as the typical option).
LilithsThrall wrote:
Sorry, that should have read, "Because doing the dump stat thing is actually suboptimal.."
Not if you can replace it for 24 hours every day with your high powered Cha stat.
Cartigan wrote: LilithsThrall wrote:
Sorry, that should have read, "Because doing the dump stat thing is actually suboptimal.."
Not if you can replace it for 24 hours every day with your high powered Cha stat. On the one hand, you've got "choose any of these five stats". On the other hand, you've got "choose any of this one stat" (the dump stat). The first choice seems superior to me (because it allows any of the five stats as opposed to only the one). How is losing this flexibility a superior option?
LilithsThrall wrote: Cartigan wrote: LilithsThrall wrote:
Sorry, that should have read, "Because doing the dump stat thing is actually suboptimal.."
Not if you can replace it for 24 hours every day with your high powered Cha stat. On the one hand, you've got "choose any of these five stats". On the other hand, you've got "choose any of this one stat" (the dump stat). The first choice seems superior to me (because it allows any of the five stats as opposed to only the one). How is losing this flexibility a superior option? Because you have an automatic 20+ in two stats while only having to enhance one. How is that NOT a superior option?
Cartigan wrote: LilithsThrall wrote: Cartigan wrote: LilithsThrall wrote:
Sorry, that should have read, "Because doing the dump stat thing is actually suboptimal.."
Not if you can replace it for 24 hours every day with your high powered Cha stat. On the one hand, you've got "choose any of these five stats". On the other hand, you've got "choose any of this one stat" (the dump stat). The first choice seems superior to me (because it allows any of the five stats as opposed to only the one). How is losing this flexibility a superior option? Because you have an automatic 20+ in two stats while only having to enhance one. How is that NOT a superior option? Say you've got a 20+ in charisma. You choose to have a dump stat in strength. Now, using your method, you've got a 20+ in both charisma and strength.
Now, you're asked to infiltrate the king's court and pass yourself off as a sage. Oh, but your int is only 12. So, you move your 20+ to int and expose your dump stat in strength.
If you hadn't taken the dump stat, you could have been an effective sage and not nerf yourself in combat if and when it becomes necessary.
LilithsThrall wrote: Cartigan wrote: LilithsThrall wrote: Cartigan wrote: LilithsThrall wrote:
Sorry, that should have read, "Because doing the dump stat thing is actually suboptimal.."
Not if you can replace it for 24 hours every day with your high powered Cha stat. On the one hand, you've got "choose any of these five stats". On the other hand, you've got "choose any of this one stat" (the dump stat). The first choice seems superior to me (because it allows any of the five stats as opposed to only the one). How is losing this flexibility a superior option? Because you have an automatic 20+ in two stats while only having to enhance one. How is that NOT a superior option? Say you've got a 20+ in charisma. You choose to have a dump stat in strength. Now, using your method, you've got a 20+ in both charisma and strength.
Now, you're asked to infiltrate the king's court and pass yourself off as a sage. Oh, but your int is only 12. So, you move your 20+ to int and expose your dump stat in strength.
If you hadn't taken the dump stat, you could have been an effective sage and not nerf yourself in combat if and when it becomes necessary. So? The ability gives the class -1 dump stats and two max stats.
Your trying to create the abilities solely from a "How I would play this in an RP" stand point instead of a "How other people would play it in the game" stand point.
For those of us that roll our stats, this seems like not such a big thing. But I can see it from a point-buy system. There is, however, one thing I wish people would really get. If someone is fixed on a point from their own creation, then just let it go. If you don't like it, don't allow it in your game. Heck, talk about them "behind their back" if you want, but Thrall is obviously not giving up on this.
One suggestion I do have though, is to give it some sort of minor balance. If/when you switch stats, you suffer a -1d2 to the stat switched from for the next 24 hours. This cannot be fixed with restoration.
The Stuff is crazy broken. Far, far, far better than any ability given by any bloodline feature on any level.
Sphen86 wrote: For those of us that roll our stats, this seems like not such a big thing. But I can see it from a point-buy system. There is, however, one thing I wish people would really get. If someone is fixed on a point from their own creation, then just let it go. If you don't like it, don't allow it in your game. Heck, talk about them "behind their back" if you want, but Thrall is obviously not giving up on this.
One suggestion I do have though, is to give it some sort of minor balance. If/when you switch stats, you suffer a -1d2 to the stat switched from for the next 24 hours. This cannot be fixed with restoration.
It's not that I'm obstinately holding on to it. Rather, I'm trying to see the problem with it. Once I see the problem with it, I'll know how to fix it.
There are a couple of things I know, though.
One, this is not the Transmuter. This is not other bloodlines. This bloodline will be spending most of it's time in combat unable to cast spells (and relying on it's abilities in melee - something the Sorcerer class isn't well designed for). So, what the Transmuter and other bloodlines get is irrelevant.
Two, a +4 to an appropriate stat just isn't enough (for reasons I gave earlier).
Sphen86 wrote: For those of us that roll our stats, this seems like not such a big thing. But I can see it from a point-buy system. There is, however, one thing I wish people would really get. If someone is fixed on a point from their own creation, then just let it go. If you don't like it, don't allow it in your game. Heck, talk about them "behind their back" if you want, but Thrall is obviously not giving up on this. Then this is an entirely useless bloodline option except just for LT, even if everything but that gets fixed.
LillithsThrall wrote: It's not that I'm obstinately holding on to it. Rather, I'm trying to see the problem with it. Once I see the problem with it, I'll know how to fix it. If you don't understand "people will abuse it because it gives you automatic two max stats where you only need to increases one," then you aren't going to understand it because that is as a simple as it can be made.
Quote: Two, a +4 to an appropriate stat just isn't enough (for reasons I gave earlier). It is enough because Druid.
LillithsThrall wrote:
If you don't understand "people will abuse it because it gives you automatic two max stats where you only need to increases one," then you aren't going to understand it because that is as a simple as it can be made.
The question is whether what you perceive as abuse will really cause problems. Is it going to lead to a character which is going to steal anyone else's thunder? That's what I'm still trying to work out in my head.
I'm already reasonably certain that, over the long span of a campaign, given that the GM gives a variety of encounter types (such that the Sorcerer has to keep changing the target stat from encounter to encounter) rather than just spamming the same encounter type over and over again, taking advantage of this power with dump stats isn't likely.
If the GM does just spam the same encounter type over and over again (such as a pure "kick in the door, kill stuff, loot the bodies" game), then I can see how this power enables the Sorcerer to have a dump stat.
Quote: It is enough because Druid. I'm sorry. What does the Druid have to do with it? Are you starting from the premise that what is good enough to make the Druid work in melee is good enough to get the Sorcerer good in melee? Because, if that's the case, your premise is flawed. The Sorcerer has a weaker BAB, fewer hit points, doesn't have natural spell, doesn't have an animal ally (to soak some of the damage off of the character), doesn't have the extensive spell list (ie. is more locked into relying on shape changing as a combat option), etc. compared to the Druid. To get the Sorcerer to the same place, the Sorcerer needs a bigger bonus. The Druid and the Sorcerer aren't comparable.
Let me add that I'm not entirely happy with "what dreams are made of" and am looking for an alternative.
Using my version, even if the Sorcerer targets to raise his strength, he's still hurting on hit points for a melee-er.
So, I am looking for an alternate way to do this power. I just haven't figured it out yet.
One option I'm debating is giving the Sorcerer the ability to double the stat and AC bonuses from a new form. So, if he turns into a bear using Beast Shape I, he gets +4 to strength and +4 to AC.
If he turns into a Mastadon at level 10 using Beast Shape III, he gets +12 to Strength, -4 to Dex, and +12 to AC. If he uses Giant Form II at level 16, he gets +16 to strength, -2 to Dex, +12 to Con, +12 to AC, and +10 to foot enhancement from speed.
The downside to this approach is that it doesn't ever give bonuses to Wis or Int (because there are no spells which add to Wis or Int when you take a new form).
LilithsThrall wrote: Let me add that I'm not entirely happy with "what dreams are made of" and am looking for an alternative.
Using my version, even if the Sorcerer targets to raise his strength, he's still hurting on hit points for a melee-er.
So, I am looking for an alternate way to do this power. I just haven't figured it out yet.
One option I'm debating is giving the Sorcerer the ability to double the stat and AC bonuses from a new form. So, if he turns into a bear using Beast Shape I, he gets +4 to strength and +4 to AC.
If he turns into a Mastadon at level 10 using Beast Shape III, he gets +12 to Strength, -4 to Dex, and +12 to AC. If he uses Giant Form II at level 16, he gets +16 to strength, -2 to Dex, +12 to Con, +12 to AC, and +10 to foot enhancement from speed.
The downside to this approach is that it doesn't ever give bonuses to Wis or Int (because there are no spells which add to Wis or Int when you take a new form).
I like the doubling of a spell's effect option. Another idea: start it out as a +4, like Bull's Strength, Fox's Cunning, and so on. Then at a later level make it a +6, eventually maxing out at +8. That way it'll scale with level, help the Sorcerer survive melee more effectively, and you don't run into the issues that come with using your Cha directly. Hey, maybe you can even split the +8 into two +4s or something - not sure if that would be overpowering or not.
LilithsThrall wrote:
Quote: It is enough because Druid. I'm sorry. What does the Druid have to do with it? Are you starting from the premise that what is good enough to make the Druid work in melee is good enough to get the Sorcerer good in melee? Because, if that's the case, your premise is flawed. The Sorcerer has a weaker BAB, fewer hit points, doesn't have natural spell, doesn't have an animal ally (to soak some of the damage off of the character), doesn't have the extensive spell list (ie. is more locked into relying on shape changing as a combat option), etc. compared to the Druid. To get the Sorcerer to the same place, the Sorcerer needs a bigger bonus. The Druid and the Sorcerer aren't comparable.
I'll translate. Hes refering to the PF changes to the Druid. Physical stats became meaningless at and beyond certain levels because the Druid took the physical stats of the creature they wild shaped into and could stay in wild shape as long as necessary. It was a problem as early as level 5.
You have the same thing here. Expect to see lots of 5 Con Gnomes with 20 Charisma, because in fact the bloodline feature makes an entire ability score almost totally redundant.
Ability substitution is ridiculously powerful, and only existed in core 3.5 with the Druid and Polymorph- both were fixed for PF.
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote: Expect to see lots of 5 Con Gnomes with 20 Charisma, because in fact the bloodline feature makes an entire ability score almost totally redundant.
If they sacrifice the opportunity to have strength, int, wis, or dex be bumped up to be equal to their highest stat.
I still think sacrificing that opportunity is a giant nerfing of your character unless you're in a game where the GM just spams the same type of encounter ad nauseum.
However, Cartigan, Tim448, and myself all offered alternatives to that rule. Which of those alternatives do you prefer most? Or would you prefer a fourth alternative of some sort?
(Incidentally, the whole new druid stat modifier in PF is one of the two things about Pathfinder which I like to think I contributed to. I was speaking to one of the game designers on these boards back when the game was being originally designed and this was one of the things I suggested. The way they ended up doing druid shape change is exactly like what I suggested. The other thing I like to think I contributed is giving the Sorcerer UMD. Maybe these weren't just my contributions. But the point is, I'm aware of the problems with druid stat replacement. I don't think my original version of "what dreams are made of" has the same problem. Having said that, I know there are problems with "what dreams..".)
LilithsThrall wrote:
The question is whether what you perceive as abuse will really cause problems. Is it going to lead to a character which is going to steal anyone else's thunder? That's what I'm still trying to work out in my head.
It doesn't need to steal anyone's thunder, it is inherently broken.
Quote: I'm sorry. What does the Druid have to do with it? Are you starting from the premise that what is good enough to make the Druid work in melee is good enough to get the Sorcerer good in melee? Your argument for it didn't even have anything to do with melee. The point was, there is a reason the Druid, and other polymorph spells, no longer completely replace physical stats with those of the creature.
Thats not a sacrifice, thats a choice. They are losing nothing by making their lowest stat their highest and having a massive gain. It is more powerful than any class feature I can think of, any feat, and any bloodline. That one ability lets me make a better Sorceror than any other could be.
Sorry, i've only glossed over the thread and have limited time so haven't seen the alternatives. I don't mean to simply be a naysayer.
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote: Thats not a sacrifice, thats a choice. They are losing nothing by making their lowest stat their highest and having a massive gain. It is more powerful than any class feature I can think of, any feat, and any bloodline. That one ability lets me make a better Sorceror than any other could be.
Every choice, once the decision is made, sacrifices the alternative. If you give up the ability to constantly remake the choice, that's a sacrifice. The freedom to choose is HUGE.
Regardless, other alternatives have been put on the table. Let's examine those.
Cartigan wrote: It doesn't need to steal anyone's thunder, it is inherently broken. What do you mean by that word, exactly? That, over the long term, given the expected variety of encounter types, this rule would require the GM to readjust the CR encounter tables?
Quote:
Your argument for it didn't even have anything to do with melee. The point was, there is a reason the Druid, and other polymorph spells, no longer completely replace physical stats with those of the creature.
And the original "what dreams.." is nothing like the druid stat substitution.
Regardless, other alternatives have been put on the table, let's discuss those.
LilithsThrall wrote: Alexander Kilcoyne wrote: Thats not a sacrifice, thats a choice. They are losing nothing by making their lowest stat their highest and having a massive gain. It is more powerful than any class feature I can think of, any feat, and any bloodline. That one ability lets me make a better Sorceror than any other could be.
Every choice, once the decision is made, sacrifices the alternative. If you give up the ability to constantly remake the choice, that's a sacrifice. The freedom to choose is HUGE.
Regardless, other alternatives have been put on the table. Let's examine those. Freedom of choice is automatically trumped by increasing two stats while only having to focus on one.
The Hunter was the most crazy powerful class in Ragnarok Online. Why? Because it only needed one stat for everything: Dex provided their Dodge, their To Hit, RoF, and their damage.
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Sorry, i've only glossed over the thread and have limited time so haven't seen the alternatives. I don't mean to simply be a naysayer.
I'm sure you've got some very valid and worthwhile points to make, but you aren't going to be making them if you don't know what's being discussed in the thread. When you've got some time, read up on the thread. I'd like to hear your informed input.
Cartigan wrote: LilithsThrall wrote: Alexander Kilcoyne wrote: Thats not a sacrifice, thats a choice. They are losing nothing by making their lowest stat their highest and having a massive gain. It is more powerful than any class feature I can think of, any feat, and any bloodline. That one ability lets me make a better Sorceror than any other could be.
Every choice, once the decision is made, sacrifices the alternative. If you give up the ability to constantly remake the choice, that's a sacrifice. The freedom to choose is HUGE.
Regardless, other alternatives have been put on the table. Let's examine those. Freedom of choice is automatically trumped by increasing two stats while only having to focus on one.
The Hunter was the most crazy powerful class in Ragnarok Online. Why? Because it only needed one stat for everything: Dex provided their Dodge, their To Hit, RoF, and their damage. Again, other alternatives for that rule have been posted. I'd like to keep this thread focused on the bloodline. If you'd like a more in-depth discussion of stat substitution, we can do it in another thread.
Which of the alternatives do you prefer most and why?
Here is the most recent version of the shape shifter bloodline
Shapechanger
You may be the offspring of a doppleganger or infused with shadow essence. Whatever the cause, your form (mind, body, and spirit) has become highly amorphous and you can take on new shapes as easily as putting on new clothes.
Class Skill: Disguise
Bonus Spells: Beast Shape 1 (3rd), Elemental Body 1 (4th), Plant Shape 1 (5th), Form of the Dragon 1 (6th), Giant Form 1 (7th), Iron Body (8th), Shapechange (9th)
Bonus Feats
Toughness, Combat Casting, Alertness, Deceitful, Extend Spell, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Disguise), Quicken Spell
Bloodline Arcana
You may choose to have any spell you cast on yourself and only yourself which changes your form and/or changes your attributes to have it's duration increased by 100%.
Bloodline Powers:
1st Adaptation - You are treated as if having Endure Elements on at all times. At 7th level, you are treated as if having resistance to energy 10 (it takes one full round action to change the energy you are resistant to) at all times. Your resistance increases by +1/every two levels after 7th. Also, you are considered a natural shapeshifter for all applicable rules.
3rd Many Forms 1 - The Sorcerer doubles all stat and AC bonuses from spells which change his form. Also, the Sorcerer is treated as always under the effect of a Misdirection spell. It requires one full round action to change the target he is mimicking via the misdirection.
9th Many Forms 2 - For any spell which the Sorcerer casts to change his form (and no one else's), the spell level modifier for Quicken Spell is reduced by 3. This includes spells like Ethereal Jaunt.
15th Occult Thoughts - Due to the Sorcerer's increasingly amorphous mind, divination spells and charms which attempt to influence or detect him become harder and harder to work. This works as a 5% chance per level of having the affect of a Mind Blank spell against any appropriate affect.
20th Plane Walker - The Sorcerer is perfectly at home on any plane. He is treated as having planar adaptation no matter what plane he is on. Further, he is treated as having the Tongues spell in permanent effect.
NOTE that I've changed the 3rd level power to be the same as my alternative. However, I'm still open to discussion on this.
LilithsThrall wrote: Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Sorry, i've only glossed over the thread and have limited time so haven't seen the alternatives. I don't mean to simply be a naysayer.
I'm sure you've got some very valid and worthwhile points to make, but you aren't going to be making them if you don't know what's being discussed in the thread. When you've got some time, read up on the thread. I'd like to hear your informed input.
I didn't need to be informed other than a skim-read to see that 'The Stuff' etc. is completely and utterly overpowered, hence why I only commented on that and the class skill, both things that stuck out at a
glance.
Balancing the ability to completely replace a stat against the feeble counter-argument of 'but you have to choose!' is not a way to measure the power level of this ability.
I'm not so sure about the alternative you currently have going- doubling is very powerful. I noticed earlier you also had something doubling by it being scaled by 100%. I would caution against doubling and use +etc. instead when you've worked out what seems balanced.
No offence is meant by this statement and i'm all too aware of how I may across with the written word, but have you been looking at the other bloodlines when designing yours? I mean really looked, and weighed up one of your options with the others for that level? I don't see how you could have done that and still thought 'The Stuff' was even close to balanced alongside them.
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
No offence is meant by this statement and i'm all too aware of how I may across with the written word, but have you been looking at the other bloodlines when designing yours? I mean really looked, and weighed up one of your options with the others for that level? I don't see how you could have done that and still thought 'The Stuff' was even close to balanced alongside them.
Yes, we already talked about comparisons to other bloodlines and I gave my comments on that. Why don't you scroll back and read them so we don't have to go over the same material again?
Ok, let us try to stat up a character here with 20 point-buy, using your version of The Stuff Dreams...
Human, Sorcerer 4
Stats bought
Str 7 (costs -4)
Dex 14 (costs 5)
Con 14 (costs 5)
Int 10 (costs 0)
Wis 11 (costs 1)
Cha 17 (costs 13)
Actual stats
Str 20 (using The Stuff Dreams...)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 20 (+2 Human, +1 at 4th level)
Never mind the fact you can't buy a 20 in a stat, this person has the equivalent of 26 points extra in stats). Considering that everyone else in the game is built on 20 points, how is 46 points not a problem?
(Note: I wouldn't necessarily make a character like this, because I don't like playing something so obscenely broken, but somebody certainly would...)
LilithsThrall wrote: Here is the most recent version of the shape shifter bloodline let me try, too.
Aside: A stuff dreams are made of _IS_ broken. If you want that, you should rather make it that for "Sorcerer Level/2 rounds per day, the Shapechanger can exchange his Charisma Score with any other score he has." Still very powerful(you get that high int/dex for exactly the skill roll you need), but limited in time(rounds) and his charisma becomes a weak stat while active.
Shapechanger
You may be the offspring of a doppleganger or infused with shadow essence. Whatever the cause, your form (mind, body, and spirit) has become highly amorphous and you can take on new shapes as easily as putting on new clothes.
Class Skill: Disguise
Bonus Spells: Beast Shape 1 (3rd), Elemental Body 1 (4th), Plant Shape 1 (5th), Form of the Dragon 1 (6th), Giant Form 1 (7th), Iron Body (8th), Shapechange (9th)
Bonus Feats
Toughness, Combat Casting, Lunge, Combat Expertise, Extend Spell, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Disguise), Defensive Combat Training
*** There has to be "dump" feats there, if you check...there are many sub-optimal choices for a reason. Power attack, anybody? ***
Bloodline Arcana
Any spell of the Transmutation school you cast and that targets you is automatically affected by the extend spell feat without increasing casting time or spell level.
*** First, that prevents the increased duration stacking with extend spell, secondly, it limits the spells to one school ***
Bloodline Powers:
1st Level
Variable Anatomy(Ex) - Your form is shifting, and in a natural reaction prevents precise or powerful blows from striking vital parts of your physiology. There is a 25% chance extra damage from critical hits or sneak attacks is ignored. This chance raises to 50% at 5th level and 75% at 13th Level.
*** Yep, there is something similar, but it does make more sense for a shapeshifter than being more less immune to elemental damage...in my eyes... ***
3th Level
Contingency(supernatural) - The Shapeshifter may cast one spell of the Transmutation School up to 3rd Level on himself, with the spell staying dormant(and it's duration not passing) until later activated as an immediate action.
At 7th Level, he may have 2 spells of the Transmutation school, or one spell of another school dormant. At Level 15, the maximum Spell Level that may be cast as dormant spell raises to 5th level.
The dormant spells are normally detectable and affected by dispel magic.
*** Now there's a classic. Contingency Spells were always great, and nice to have. This guy gets it as class ability. Cast a fly now, and set it off when needed. It's especially "useful" because you don't need to set a contingency, but you set them off when you deem it necessary. ***
9th Level
Blending in(Spelllike-Ability) - The shapeshifter may cast alter self as a swift action 3+Cha modifier times per day. Using this ability while in a crowd allows her to Hide in Plain Sight.
*** He is a shapeshifter, and it only makes sense he'd make use of this, or that the blood somehow manifests that ability in him. ***
15th Level
Morphable Mind(supernatural ability) - The sorcerer gains SR equal to 11+his sorcerer Level against charm/compulsion effects and divinations that target him. If his Spell Resistance would stop such a spell, he is inmediately aware of the attempt and can decide to morph into another form.
If the spell targeting him is a divination spell, he takes the form of a person known to him, and can redirect the spell there with an opposed caster level check, making the remote person seem to be him in regards to the divination.
If the spell targeting him is a charm/compulsion effect, he can change into a creature immune to the spell as an inmediate action(e.g. if affected by a charm person, he could turn into an animal).
If that is not possible(because he has no approbiate spell slots left or has no forms immune to the spell) or the Sorcerer decides not to change form, he is affected by the spell normally.
*** Now, thats a complicated one. I actually like your idea, but getting a free mind blank? Nay. Rather like this...he'll know if he's targeted and can act on that to stop it...if he can... ***
20th Formless(Extraordinary) - The Shapechanger can assume a form of his choice in a ritual taking 10 minutes and culminating in a alter-self-like effect(without bonuses) that permanently changes the shapechangers natural form(meaning it can't be dispelled). This new form then "exists". He can take 20 in regards to disguise and bluff checks to keep his identity, and every person asked about him and doesn't succeed on a Will Save again 10+Sorcerer Level/2+Cha Modifier, vows that the person always existed and was always around, giving knowledge about the person as if he was just that.
*** e.g. the Shapechanger could assume the form of the local lords eldest son. After the ritual takes place, he is treated as the local lords oldest son by everybody not succeeding on the check. The lord sees him as son, the proper son sees him as elder brother, the villagers know about him and remember him being a rascal in the streets when he was a boy, etc...quite a powerful ability, not a combat capstone, but incredibly useful otherwise...for PC's and NPC's alike...
note that in the example above, he actually creates a new son that did not exist before.
Of course, a more reckless person could also kill someone and then replace them...meaning it gets TRULY hard to find out there is something amiss...
Honestly, Bruno et al, there are three alternatives to "what dreams.." which have been posted, including one by me.
The most recent version of the bloodline which I posted doesn't have the original "what dreams.." rule.
Can we move on?
What do you think of the most recent version of the bloodline I posted?
What do you think of the other two alternative rules for "what dreams.." that were posted?
Alternatives certainly look better.
The reason I posted it is, that if you can't see the problem with the old ability, there's not much point in asking for more suggestions about the rest of the class, respectfully.
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