So I finally got Essentials, and I'm torn.
Format I really like the rules compendium. The format is great for a book that will see much use, and while it is and looks cheaper than the old PHBs, this makes it easier for me to put in notes or stickers and other helpful stuff that will 'ruin' the book. I never did this for any of the old books; they are simply too beautiful and must be kept in perfect condition...and since there is the character builder and print-outs, that wasn't really a problem.
But this is also why I really don't like Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and why I cancelled my order for the second Heroes' book. It is NOT nice enough. Its ok to use, but doesn't have the DO WANT-factor of many the old books, and since I'll have all the options with DDI anyway, why bother.
I'm also a bit ... hesitant ... towards the monster vault and DM kit, but I did not cancel that order.
Content Meh. I like the new builds, and I like the old (PHB) builds. I don't really care about errata because of CB, and I don't really care about the rule changes. As a DM, I have never used the parcel system but given out optimal, personalized loot anyway, so...yeah.
I'm looking forward to play an essentials wizard for a short module or so, and I will allow all essentials stuff when I DM.
Summary So in my not-so-humble opinion, the rules compendium is essential, while the heroes book is clearly not.
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So I finally got Essentials, and I'm torn.
I'm one of those people that did not care for 4e as it was originally released and I personally like the Essentials products much better. Of course that is just my opinion.
I got the RC and HotFL books and have enjoyed reading them. You'll have to pry my Pathfinder books from my cold dead hands to make me stop playing, but at least now I am willing to play the occasional 4e game too. So I think that Essentials did what it was supposed to. It got some of us that turned away from 4e to give it a second chance, and I think the new books are much better for new players. So to me they are a success.
So I finally got Essentials, and I'm torn.I'm one of those people that did not care for 4e as it was originally released and I personally like the Essentials products much better. Of course that is just my opinion.
What exactly do you like better about HotFL than the 4E PHB1?
I got the RC and HotFL books and have enjoyed reading them. You'll have to pry my Pathfinder books from my cold dead hands to make me stop playing, but at least now I am willing to play the occasional 4e game too. So I think that Essentials did what it was supposed to. It got some of us that turned away from 4e to give it a second chance, and I think the new books are much better for new players. So to me they are a success.
That's good to hear.
I have to admit that while I do like and play PF, 3.5 and 4E, I actually prefer the 4E ruleset and battles to 3.5/PF. All the crazy stuff with the environment during battles, hordes of minions and the lack of auto-win by wizard just make many fights feel more interesting to me.
What exactly do you like better about HotFL than the 4E PHB1?
In a nutshell, I prefer the comprehensive breakdown of how ability scores affect other rolls and how other statistics are derived. I think this sort of gets lost in the PHB amid mountains of fluff.
On another note: The interesting thing to me about 4E, after reading Essentials, is that I really like how a lot of mechanics are simplified - but I still don't like the powers, which deviate sharply from traditional D&D flavor and are often confusing upon a first read. I actually stopped reading the Knight powers and skipped forward to Slayer because the way the defensive auras were described were so complex.
The system mod geek in me really wants to either gut the powers from 4E altogether or just start from scratch and design my own power system, but I'm afraid monsters would be way too powerful for PCs to face without extensive modifications as well.
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So I finally got Essentials, and I'm torn.I'm one of those people that did not care for 4e as it was originally released and I personally like the Essentials products much better. Of course that is just my opinion.
What exactly do you like better about HotFL than the 4E PHB1?
For me it just "feels" better. Maybe it is the return of the class tables, or the explainations about why each race would take up each class, or it could just be that the new format makes it easier to haul around with me. I can't really put my finger on it but there is just something I like about HotFL that I like better then the PHB 1.
On another note: The interesting thing to me about 4E, after reading Essentials, is that I really like how a lot of mechanics are simplified - but I still don't like the powers, which deviate sharply from traditional D&D flavor and are often confusing upon a first read. I actually stopped reading the Knight powers and skipped forward to Slayer because the way the defensive auras were described were so complex.The system mod geek in me really wants to either gut the powers from 4E altogether or just start from scratch and design my own power system, but I'm afraid monsters would be way too powerful for PCs to face without extensive modifications as well.
I understand what you mean about reading the powers but its by no means necessary to do. Most powers are legalize for some kind of action move. most of the time they play a lot better then they read. I mean I'm a huge 4E fan and I've probably read less then 5% of all the powers in the game.
My cleric will hit 9th level in a few sessions, I know from the system that at uneven levels I get some kind of power but I have not even bothered to look up what kind of power that will be and I have no idea what any of them do. None of this is because I don't like my cleric - I adore playing my cleric - he worships a goddess of fate and death and is super cool...but it adds relatively little to know about future powers.
When I hit 9th I'll look over my options and I'll take one that I feel is both mechanically good and fits the theme of my fate and Death Goddess worshiping Cleric and strikes me as something useful based on the kinds of adventures we have been having recently.
My suggestion is, if you ever happen to get into a 4E game, run the powers more or less as is for that first campaign to try them out. The system is a lot of fun for a table top game because its very good at creating scenes straight out of something like the Lord of the Rings movies. Once or twice a session (if there happened to be combat) you'll get a sequence of events where the other players around the table will be going 'you did what? - that was awesome'!
I really liked how they handled the classes in Essentials. Instead of every class looking the same in mechanics (i.e. 2 at-wills, 1 encounter and 1 daily at level 1), they made them different. I really like how they set the martial classes (i.e. non-spellcasters) apart from the cleric and wizard. The systems of stances and tricks are slick. The changes to wizard make sense. I could really see applying the stance mechanic to replace the warlord's powers, while still giving him his healing mechanic and other class benefits. And the Sun Cleric can really dish out the heals and saves.
The races... eh, okay. The floating secondary stat buff adds a lot of flexibility to character creation. The change to the human works (and right now I prefer the racial encounter power to an additional at-will). Overall, it was not needed but it is nice.
I think the classes will hold their own when compared to the PHB1 classes. The PHB classes do get some perks the Essentials classes don't. (Ex. The PHB wizard class doesn't get magic missile as a bonus at-will power or a mage apprentice bonus ot his powers, but it does get an implmement bonus and free rituals.) I think the Essentials classes are simpler, perhaps easier to use, and are still as effective as the PHB1 classes.
Overall, I like what Essentials has to offer.
I too for the most part like what I see in the Essentials, now that I've picked up Heroes of the Forgotten Lands. I'm a little concerned about how some of the classes will balance. For instance, the fighter in the Essentials seems weaker than the fighter in PHB 1 and the Wizard in the Essentials seems possibly more powerful than the wizard in PHB 1. I won't really know until I play test them, but that is one concern I have.
My other issue is with 4E in general, and Essentials might alleviate it. I've started to find it increasingly frustrating to dm, as the characters have gone up in level. Combats have started to feel like more and more a slog of number crunching and book keeping, as opposed to being fast furious action. I didn't have this issue as much in the heroic tier of play, but I have noticing it far more now that we've hit paragon tier. Unfortunately, this was no better in 3E for me, as that system also become very difficult to dm after around 10th level. I had hoped that 4E would make higher level play a little more dm friendly, but this isn't proving to be my experience.
I had hoped that 4E would make higher level play a little more dm friendly, but this isn't proving to be my experience.
IMHO, 4E is a lot more DM friendly than 3.XE at higher levels in the sense that it's a lot easier/faster to throw together a level-appropriate encounter. In 3.X this is just a bear, especially for enemies with class levels.
(I'm not especially a 4E fan -- I just think this is one of the areas where it really shines.)
But, that being said, if you're running from prewritten material either way, I don't think there's that much difference in terms of DM ease.
The change to the human works (and right now I prefer the racial encounter power to an additional at-will). Overall, it was not needed but it is nice.
Does anyone happen to know if the change to the Human, errata or an additional human "build"? (I'm too lazy to dig around Wizards site right now....)
The change to the human works (and right now I prefer the racial encounter power to an additional at-will). Overall, it was not needed but it is nice.Does anyone happen to know if the chance to the Human, errata or an additional human "build"? (I'm too lazy to dig around Wizards site right now....)
Come again? I'm not understanding this.
Come again? I'm not understanding this.The change to the human works (and right now I prefer the racial encounter power to an additional at-will). Overall, it was not needed but it is nice.Does anyone happen to know if the chance to the Human, errata or an additional human "build"? (I'm too lazy to dig around Wizards site right now....)
I believe the question is, "Is the human ability presented in essentials a new option (like the new fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard builds are new options) or will there be a rules update replacing the PHB human with the Essentials human (like how magic missile was represented.
I believe it is the former. Although the "at-will" option is not presented in Essentials, I recall seeing a pdf on the Wizards of the Coast site saying that both options are available to human characters.
Come again? I'm not understanding this.The change to the human works (and right now I prefer the racial encounter power to an additional at-will). Overall, it was not needed but it is nice.Does anyone happen to know if the chance to the Human, errata or an additional human "build"? (I'm too lazy to dig around Wizards site right now....)
Sorry, I had a typo and I guess I wasn't very clear to begin with.
I mean the Human race in Heroes of the Fallen Lands doesn't get an extra At-Will, but instead gets an encounter power.I was just curious if the HotFL Human replaces the PH human, or if they are each different "builds" (meaning I can choose to either play the Human that gives me the extra At-Will, or play the Human with the encounter power)
I believe the question is, "Is the human ability presented in essentials a new option (like the new fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard builds are new options) or will there be a rules update replacing the PHB human with the Essentials human (like how magic missile was represented.
I believe it is the former. Although the "at-will" option is not presented in Essentials, I recall seeing a pdf on the Wizards of the Coast site saying that both options are available to human characters.
That's exactly what I meant. Thanks for mucking through my horrible post and answering that!
The extra at-will would be kind of useless in essentials since the "every character gets 2 at will powers" structure has been changed.
I think you are right about this. It's the actual combat during the sessions that I'm starting to find frustrating (too much number crunching and book keeping due to status effects).
I had hoped that 4E would make higher level play a little more dm friendly, but this isn't proving to be my experience.IMHO, 4E is a lot more DM friendly than 3.XE at higher levels in the sense that it's a lot easier/faster to throw together a level-appropriate encounter. In 3.X this is just a bear, especially for enemies with class levels.
(I'm not especially a 4E fan -- I just think this is one of the areas where it really shines.)
But, that being said, if you're running from prewritten material either way, I don't think there's that much difference in terms of DM ease.
Honestly, the third at will is awesomely useful for some classes. Choosing between it or the actual ability actually does make for a payoff.
The extra at-will would be kind of useless in essentials since the "every character gets 2 at will powers" structure has been changed.
Well, Essential wizards could get some use of it (I believe), but I was more concerned about making Human non-Essential classes.
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What exactly do you like better about HotFL than the 4E PHB1?
Everyone else did a pretty fine job of explaining this for me. Essentials "feels" better. The builds seem "friendlier" and overall I just found Essentials to be better organized, easier and more enjoyable to read.
To me the classes in the original 4e seemed to be all the same. I know they weren't but they seemed that way. In essentials they actually feel different.To me Essentials doesn't feel as sterile and bland as the original 4e core books.
That's good to hear.
I have to admit that while I do like and play PF, 3.5 and 4E, I actually prefer the 4E ruleset and battles to 3.5/PF. All the crazy stuff with the environment during battles, hordes of minions and the lack of auto-win by wizard just make many fights feel more interesting to me.
I still prefer my Pathfinder, but using Essentials has made 4e more enjoyable for me. As it was before I didn't care if I ever played the game again. While I will likely never open my original 4e PHB or DMG again, I am kind of looking forward to running another Essentials game. The RC, HotFL, HotFK & MM3 are probably all I'll every use when playing 4e. Though my I might pick up Heroes of Shadow next year.
You know I've often wondered if it was the formating that that created a lot of the initial bad reactions to 4e.
I know it was very jarring for me at first, you just got so used to those class charts etc. from 3.x. I didn't have anything else to read, as i was stuck in the desert, so i powered through and it grew on me as i adjusted. I was always curious how many people just got fed up and never made the jump becuase they had other options.
I'm guessing wizards figured this out after a few focus groups and -bam- we have essentials.
The extra at-will would be kind of useless in essentials since the "every character gets 2 at will powers" structure has been changed.Well, Essential wizards could get some use of it (I believe), but I was more concerned about making Human non-Essential classes.
I think it will be an option with the human. If it is my cleric will pick it up for sure. I agree that wizards often like the extra at will but that power is really good and my cleric certainly does not need a third at will.
I think it will be an option with the human. If it is my cleric will pick it up for sure. I agree that wizards often like the extra at will but that power is really good and my cleric certainly does not need a third at will.
Just in case anyone cares it looks like humans are given the choice between the Encounter power and the extra At-Will: Essential changes to previous books
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You know I've often wondered if it was the formating that that created a lot of the initial bad reactions to 4e.
A lot of the initial bad reactions were likely more focused on WotC, the company itself, than towards 4e.
Although I did buy the corebooks when they were released and even stuck around and got the Forgotten Realms books. My group and I just did not like the game. Rituals(we all disliked messing with them) & everybody having superpowers, it just didn't feel right to us. We've only played with a few builds in Essentials, but so far the classes in those books don't feel like fantasy superheroes. It feels more like D&D.We still aren't fans of all the powers, but they seemed to be more stripped down and tolerable in Essentials. At least so far.
I know it was very jarring for me at first, you just got so used to those class charts etc. from 3.x. I didn't have anything else to read, as i was stuck in the desert, so i powered through and it grew on me as i adjusted. I was always curious how many people just got fed up and never made the jump becuase they had other options.
I'm guessing wizards figured this out after a few focus groups and -bam- we have essentials.
My group tried to make the move to 4e, but as it was originally released it just didn't work for us. So we went back to 3.5 and then snatched up Pathfinder as soon as it was released.
4e Essentials isn't exactly what we want, but it is a little closer than standard 4e.Plus the digest-sized books and the improved organization are fantastic. I buy pocket editions every chance I get, but WotC out did every pocket guide I've ever bought. I wish every company would put these out.
I would love to have a well organized, digest-sized Pathfinder Rules Cyclopeida with just the essential rules(combat, magic, character creation cheat sheet), a short GM section(magic items, Traps, encounter building, treasure rules, just basic GM rules & tables) and stats for about 100 monsters.
Then release the digest-sized Player's Handbook with combat rules, all necessary character creation rules/info, basic equipment and a variety of races & classes. You could have the basic Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer, Theif and Ranger. But you could also add a class or two from the AdvPG and/or from any other PFRPG product(Companion, Campaign Setting, etc). Since we aren't going to get away from the core races, it would still be nice to have a non-core race (Drow, Minotaur, Tengu) added to the mix.
These books don't have to go into the level of detail the standard books do, but it would be nice to have smaller books for reference/use when gaming away from home. I tend to carry an RPG book with me everywhere I go. Right now Essentials and DC Adventures hold that position because they are easier to carry than the Pathfinder Core book.
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Drow are going to be in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. Unless you are playing in Encounters you can also use the other races you mentioned straight out of the Monster Manuals or PHB 3 for the minotaur.
I've been hearing that PHB3 is very close to Essentials so I may end up picking that up too.
There isn't a shop within 50 miles of me running Encounters, so "legal" build are not something I need to worry about. Heck, I'm lucky to find another gamer within 50 miles of where I live and it is a miracle if I can find one that has actually read a rulebook after 2e.
Drow are going to be in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. Unless you are playing in Encounters you can also use the other races you mentioned straight out of the Monster Manuals or PHB 3 for the minotaur.I've been hearing that PHB3 is very close to Essentials so I may end up picking that up too.
There isn't a shop within 50 miles of me running Encounters, so "legal" build are not something I need to worry about. Heck, I'm lucky to find another gamer within 50 miles of where I live and it is a miracle if I can find one that has actually read a rulebook after 2e.
Take a good look at PHB3 before buying. Its 'like essentials' in that it deviates from the more standard character format but it does so with some pretty unusual races and with psionic classes and such. Outlier classes from a normal D&D perspective.