I guess some people didn't want to post on my thread because they didn't want to mess up its organization. Here's a thread you can use to comment.
Thanks for the journal. I will be following what you have to share, as i too may be converting the Age of Worms in the near future.
From the session where the players first enter the Whispering Cairn
The next day, the PCs traveled to see Allustan. From him, they learned the location of the Whispering Cairn. Allustan told them that he would be unable to join them in exploring the cairn (I told them Allustan's brother, the governor-mayor Lanod, was in a jam and that Allustan needed to stay in town to help him), but that he would be willing to pay the PCs 100 gp each to explore the Whispering Cairn for him. Note: I'm still trying to figure out exactly how much money and treasure I should give to the PCs. The treasure parcels help a little, but like 3.5, I think it will be a while before I get a feel for how much is too little or too much.
I usually just give out a parcel for this sort of thing. The extra change I just add to another parcel they should get this level.
It might just be that I'm running a game for a bunch of players who have never played 4E before, and who only played in a few 3.5 games. However, combats in this edition seem a lot more challenging than in 3.5. Nobody in my group has died yet, but in each encounter, at least one PC gets knocked unconscious, and a couple take some serious damage before they finally defeat the monsters. I'm actually quite pleased with this, because I think it makes each encounter feel like a life or death situation, even if ultimately, the PCs triumph every time.
Looking at your encounters I see that the wolf encounter includes a 5th level wolf and the dark creepers are 4th level. I think this and the fact that your players are 1st is the real major explanation for why the combats are so challenging. A few monsters of much higher level then the PCs can be difficult going. Their bonus to hit means they rarely miss and their own defences are going to be hard for your players to hit. Your players low level means they don't have some way of getting around this difficulty - higher level characters might have reroll abilities or reliable powers that only go off when they hit - meaning eventually they'll lay into the baddies or some other trick.
I'd think you'd get a different effect if you had instead chosen 5 kobolds. I'm somewhat concerned because I don't feel that this view of an encounter (every battle a fight to the death) is really much of a hallmark of 4E. Thats actually something I'd say was more true of 3.5. My feeling is that, in 3.5, there is no real attrition - the resource being tracked is the spell casters spells. The adventuring day is over when that resource is considered inadequate to continue. Hence, once the CLW wands are in play all fights are with full strength parties so each fight is very tough to keep up the challenge.
4E reminds me of 2nd (and earlier) editions where adventures are wars of attrition. Most encounters are not life threatening but each takes a bit out of you until your whittled down just as the really tough end boss type fights kick off.
In 2nd you'd just run out of ways to heal and 4E you, eventually, just run out of healing surges. Of course that view gets a bit scewed for us AoW converters because we are converting an AP originally designed to be hard under 3.5 paradigms - so fewer harder fights is more our norm.
Back to the higher level monsters (i.e the 5th level wolf). I suspect you would get the same type of effect when you make some the of the enemies of roughly the characters level but elite. Though I'm sure that the actual stat layout is different. An interesting experiment might to be to compare and contrast using standard bad guys of 4 or 5 levels above the party with the same monster simply made into elite. The difference in how the stats turn out could add another tool to the DMs toolbox. I'm guessing that higher level standards are more 'glass cannon' while the elites are made out of hps but I've not yet actually done this comparison with the monster builder to see.
Looking at your encounters I see that the wolf encounter includes a 5th level wolf and the dark creepers are 4th level. I think this and the fact that your players are 1st is the real major explanation for why the combats are so challenging. A few monsters of much higher level then the PCs can be difficult going. Their bonus to hit means they rarely miss and their own defences are going to be hard for your players to hit. Your players low level means they don't have some way of getting around this difficulty - higher level characters might have reroll abilities...
Okay. I'll have to think on that one for a bit. The main reason I didn't feel all that concerned about adding monsters of that level is because the DMG says you can use monsters that are less than 8 levels higher than the party. I hear what you're saying, though. I'll take a look at the rest of my encounters and see if maybe I shouldn't make some adjustments.
Looking at your encounters I see that the wolf encounter includes a 5th level wolf and the dark creepers are 4th level. I think this and the fact that your players are 1st is the real major explanation for why the combats are so challenging. A few monsters of much higher level then the PCs can be difficult going. Their bonus to hit means they rarely miss and their own defences are going to be hard for your players to hit. Your players low level means they don't have some way of getting around this difficulty - higher level characters might have reroll abilities...Okay. I'll have to think on that one for a bit. The main reason I didn't feel all that concerned about adding monsters of that level is because the DMG says you can use monsters that are less than 8 levels higher than the party. I hear what you're saying, though. I'll take a look at the rest of my encounters and see if maybe I shouldn't make some adjustments.
Note that I'm not saying that you should or should not have used such a creature. I'm making a contention on why you may have seen the effects you saw based on the creatures level but not making a judgment that using it was the right or wrong decision.
Note that I'm not saying that you should or should not have used such a creature. I'm making a contention on why you may have seen the effects you saw based on the creatures level but not making a judgment that using it was the right or wrong decision.
Don't misunderstand. When I said I'd have to think about it, I did not mean to imply that I'm dismissing your points politely. On the contrary, your observations make a lot of sense, and if anything, I'm a little annoyed at Wizards for not pointing the same things out. What I meant by "I'll have to think about it," is that I have to think about what it means for my campaign.
You see, I'm not very good at improvisation, and I find that trying to come up with appropriate stat blocks week by week makes it difficult for me to create a believable world. Because of this, I do a lot of preparation ahead of time, so that I have time to consider how I want to fit my PCs' back stories into the adventure, or how I want to roleplay a particular villain.
Right now, I'm working on converting the third module behind the scenes, and I'm concerned that your points have real implications about the work I've done on the first and second modules. The question I'm trying to answer is should I go back and address some of the issues that you raise, or should I just try to pull my punches a little in game?
I think you can fast track the double checking process by keeping an eye on the monsters defences. Ones around your players level should be fine so only worry about it if your using monsters significantly past your players level.
I focus on defences because I think its really the main culprit...at least the one that a DM might catch when making the adventure.
I pretty much just base my experience on the past. So currently my players start having a hard time hitting if a defense is 23 or 24. I glance at the defences and I want to see either that they are manly 23 or lower or if there are 26s or some such then they are balanced by 20s.
You see, I'm not very good at improvisation, and I find that trying to come up with appropriate stat blocks week by week makes it difficult for me to create a believable world. Because of this, I do a lot of preparation ahead of time, so that I have time to consider how I want to fit my PCs' back stories into the adventure, or how I want to roleplay a particular villain.
I do my write ups ahead of time as well. I think your fine as long as your only about one adventure ahead of the PCs. That way you still have a good feel for their abilities.
Living Quarters
There are a few conditions that I miss greatly from 3.5. One of these is fatigued. In the original module, PCs who share a space with the stone slabs have to make a Will save or become fatigued.
Here I really agree with you. I'm not really sure what the point with limiting them was. Maybe trying to get it so it was possible to memorize them if the list was small enough? Beats me but I have not memorized them yet so thats not been a benifit and I still feel the detriment of there just not being enough of them to simulate all the kinds of effects I would like.
At this point I'm serously considering just adding in, as a house rule, any conditions I feel the game needs but does not currently have.
One of the biggest disappointments to me in 4E is that they got rid of elementals. Elementals were some of my favorite monsters in 3.5. They could literally show up just about anywhere, and they never seemed to be out of place. When I realized they didn't have elementals in Fourth Edition, it really slowed me down.
They did? You must mean this in some way I'm not understanding. I mean I never even noticed a lack and I'm sure I used some kind of water elemental thingy for the flooded room.
As I started preparing for this session, I realized that I misread the module from last time. I thought the elevator from the False Tomb stopped at The Lair of the Architect, but apparently it goes down another floor.
Huh? When I mapped this out as a unified whole I ended up with an elevator that went down to the lair of the Architect. A second elevator that was broken and would open a gaping hole from which bugs emerged and which led to the workers area and finally a fake elevator that went nowehere and just tried to kill players. I don't remember any multilevel elevators?
The earth archon, Artophanx, was a little powerful for the party. Even though I bumped him down to Level 3, I didn't take into consideration that an extra 1d8 of thunder damage was a little much for a 1st level party. I think if I had to do this combat over again, I'd make it 3 extra points of damage, or maybe just take it, and the ground strike ability, out altogether.
Yeah – the ability to change the creatures level with the monster builder is awesome...but comes with some pitfalls...Knock an Abolith down to 3rd level and it still has a dominate attack. Tad powerful at this level to have the DM taking players turns for them and using their daily's on the party cleric.
“From down the hall, you hear what sounds like a female voice shout, ‘I’m throwing a rock!’” The players howled with laughter.
Your in good company here. If you read blogs or people recounting their experience with Whispering Cairn you'll find that the players fleeing the adventure once they met swarms (usually in the false tomb) was super common. In 3.5 the swarms are straight up immune to weapon attacks and most 1st level party's are not carrying Alchemists Fire so they run away - and go and get some Alchemists fire.
One thing I am wondering is if maybe the party composition is contributing to the problem. Right now, the party has two leaders (a bard, and a spirit shaman), and five strikers (barbarian, ranger, sorcerer, warlock, wizard). I’m wondering if the lack of a defender and a controller is more of an issue than I could have imagined.
Holy Small Army! Anyway the Wizard is a controller. Your lack of a defender is a weakness but with a group this size I doubt all that much of one. Would not help at this level anyway...
That said, it seems like the monsters hit all too frequently, and when they do, they do an enormous amount of damage. Meanwhile, it seems like the party seems to have an enormously difficult time hitting the monsters at all.
....because the defenders AC is not really all that special at 1st and the monsters will hit anyway.
People were not complaining about 1st level being to easy. The monsters did not scale properly and once the PCs gained some levels things got too easy...the higher the players level the easier it got.
They did? You must mean this in some way I'm not understanding. I mean I never even noticed a lack and I'm sure I used some kind of water elemental thingy for the flooded room.
Take a look again. The only elementals that I've seen are creatures people designed for the RPGA. The official books do not have elementals. They only have archons.
As I started preparing for this session, I realized that I misread the module from last time. I thought the elevator from the False Tomb stopped at The Lair of the Architect, but apparently it goes down another floor.
You're right. I think it was the button that calls the elevator to the Lair of the Architect that threw me.
They did? You must mean this in some way I'm not understanding. I mean I never even noticed a lack and I'm sure I used some kind of water elemental thingy for the flooded room.Take a look again. The only elementals that I've seen are creatures people designed for the RPGA. The official books do not have elementals. They only have archons.
Hoped over and looked again and I sort of see what you mean. Monster Manual does not really have elementals. Just Archons as you say.
Monster Manual II does have some, though pretty non traditional, I used the Geonids from p.99 in my conversion (in the workroom - originally captured from the battle on the Plains of Pesh in my conversion).
Monster Manual III p. 83 has something pretty much akin to Elementals we'd recognize from older editions. I do, however, understand that these would not have been available to you when you actually made this conversion.
Submerged Showers
In creating my water elemental...
I too find creating creatures really tough. 4Es exception based monsters (i.e. not built up from templates) can make that more difficult for some, such as myself and less difficult for others (who find templates stand in the way of what they are trying to do).
Personally I have always either taken the build from some one else (so if I was running this behind you I'd have used your Water Elemental), modified another creature that was close to what I wanted or replaced the creature entirely.
Insane Water Elemental Whirlpool Level 4 Brute...
I like your water elemental but, for those following after you and using your blog as a resource, I would suggest adding some kind of power that can move players around. The version I stole from the poster PopnFresh could move players up to 3 squares and that allows the elemental to drag the players deeper into the little maze of stalls that is the shower room. It had special move through water abilities too (some kind of a shift that could actually go through enemies to get behind them).
The goal I'm advocating for is essentially to force the issue. This is a very interesting environment for a battle. Your players will not often (if ever really again in the AP) fight a battle under water. So the goal here is to grab a player with a line attached and yank that player in even deeper - pulling the rope from the hands of any who are holding it back on dry dungeon. Make the other players go 'Oh s!#%!... we are coming, just hold on' and dive into the water to save their comrade. When I ran this it turned into maybe the stand out combat of Whispering Cairn. Certainly on of about three scenes that are still memorable even almost a year after we first ran the adventure.
Additional Thoughts
I don't know how much of this is the system, and how much of it is me adapting the system rules to suit my needs, but I really like how skills work in 4E. Don't get me wrong, I like skills in 3.5 too. However, as a DM, I always feel like I have to think very carefully about how I want the players to use their skills in game, particularly in combat.
I think your doing it right here. As a player in 4Es Scales of War campaign I have noticed that 4E encounter design is often about adding in elements to the combat that force players to make to both use their skills and even, reasonably often, to make hard choices about using ones turn not to fight but instead to use ones skills in an advantageous manner.
The 1/2 level mechanic means that the difference between the best and the worst in a skill, while significant, is not overwhelming. Your wizard can make that Athletics roll - might need some luck but she can do it. So adding in stuff that requires Athletics, or any other skill, into an encounter does not usually completely shut down players not tuned into any given skill.
I like your water elemental but, for those following after you and using your blog as a resource, I would suggest adding some kind of power that can move players around. The version I stole from the poster PopnFresh could move players up to 3 squares and that allows the elemental to drag the players deeper into the little maze of stalls that is the shower room. It had special move through water abilities too (some kind of a shift that could actually go through enemies to get behind them).
The goal I'm advocating for is essentially to force the issue. This is a very interesting environment for a battle. Your players will not often (if ever really again in the AP) fight a battle under water. So the goal here is to grab a player with a line attached and yank that player in even deeper - pulling the rope from the hands of any who are holding it back on dry dungeon. Make the other players go 'Oh s!#@!... we are coming, just hold on' and dive into the water to save their comrade. When I ran this it turned into maybe the stand out combat of Whispering Cairn. Certainly one of about three scenes that are still memorable even almost a year after we first ran the adventure.
That certainly sounds like an interesting monster. I think for this, my very first time ever creating an original monster, I really wanted to try and keep it simple. I do agree that this could very easily be one of the stand out combats of the adventure. However, I think the tactics of the monster are easily just as important as its powers. I should have mentioned in my blog that in this encounter, the water elemental did not leave the showers to chase after Ashamus. It's still down there, somewhere, waiting for the players to jump back in. This thought actually filled my players with a certain amount of dread, and they even considered looking elsewhere in the cairn for the lantern, until they realized that there really wasn't anywhere else left to explore.
Other Locker Room With Benches
I then asked my players about the challenge rating of the encounters. "I think the first combat was just about perfect," one player told me. "The water elemental was able to hit us, but not too easily, and we were able to hit it just about as well."With this information in mind, I decided to take another look at my module. Comparing the attacks and defenses of my other monsters to the water elemental and Ulavant, I could immediately see which encounters were going to present an appropriate challenge, and which were going to decimate the party. I'm now eager to see whether these adjustments will prove to make the difference needed to make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
I don't even remember the what happened with my players and the Goul, outside of 'they killed it'. That said I recall, as a player, meeting a Goul (or possibly a Ghast) fairly early on in the Scales of War Campaign. Similar deal to what you are talking about, really hard to hit. The difference is I remember that making it a fun encounter not a bad one. In part because it was different and an interesting change of pace then some of the other combats we had been in. That said this type of baddie certianly always presents a danger of just frustrating your players and used very commonly at all just becomes a crappy slog.
But hard to hit some of the time can be fun and if its a case of hard to hit for AC but a couple of other defenses are weak it'll really show off the wizards and clerics in the party.
I don't think the problem was just that it was hard to hit. I think the bigger problem was that stinking cloud. The players just couldn't get close enough to Ulavant to do much damage without taking a boat load of damage themselves. Once the stinking cloud went down, they had a much easier time of things, and I think it presented a much more appropriate challenge. I also think that if the stinking cloud hadn't been up in the first place, I wouldn't have needed to lower the creature's AC, because they wouldn't have been quite so badly wounded.
The 'traditional' elementals are in MM3 or you can search by name 'elemental' in the Compendium.