hey guys and gals,
I currently play in a RoRL campaign, and having a great time. our DM's pain is our newish trip fighter.
during the hook mountain adventure, 3 of our 5 man party died fighting the stone giants at the end. we rescued one, and got him rezzed, the other 2 made new characters, one of which is the above mentioned fighter.
when we moved on to the attack on sandpoint and attacking the giants at their camps (in the valley with the dark tower, sorry, cant recall the name) the fighter basically knocks the giants down, everyone gets an AoO. if they stand, everyone gets an AoO. if they fight from the ground they are easier to hit.
basically we clean up giants pretty easily now. and that is where the trouble lies. our DM doesn't think its much of a challange, and that if he ups the encounters, the rest of us may pay for it. are perhaps the giants not prepared for this style of fighter, or are we doing something wrong ?
any advice is welcome. thanks.
hey guys and gals,
I currently play in a RoRL campaign, and having a great time. our DM's pain is our newish trip fighter.
during the hook mountain adventure, 3 of our 5 man party died fighting the stone giants at the end. we rescued one, and got him rezzed, the other 2 made new characters, one of which is the above mentioned fighter.
when we moved on to the attack on sandpoint and attacking the giants at their camps (in the valley with the dark tower, sorry, cant recall the name) the fighter basically knocks the giants down, everyone gets an AoO. if they stand, everyone gets an AoO. if they fight from the ground they are easier to hit.
basically we clean up giants pretty easily now. and that is where the trouble lies. our DM doesn't think its much of a challange, and that if he ups the encounters, the rest of us may pay for it. are perhaps the giants not prepared for this style of fighter, or are we doing something wrong ?
any advice is welcome. thanks.
He should not let you gang up on one giant(or any other baddie). If he thinks two giants are too much then put out a giant and some competent minions.
our last encounter was 3 stone giants initially, then 2 more joined in. by the time we would have started fighting the other 2, 2 of the original 3 were dead, the other tripped to the ground and almost dead.
the battle before that was 2 stone giants and 3 dire bears. harder to trip the bears, but not unatainable.
our last encounter was 3 stone giants initially, then 2 more joined in. by the time we would have started fighting the other 2, 2 of the original 3 were dead, the other tripped to the ground and almost dead.
the battle before that was 2 stone giants and 3 dire bears. harder to trip the bears, but not unatainable.
The giants and bears both have a CMD of 30. Is tripping really so automatic against those guys? Seems like it would be a decent chance to miss unless the fighter has super stats or something. Also, if the giants spread out at all, then at most 1 is tripped per round at the cost of the tripping fighters turn (and the tripping fighter will draw AoO's while closing in on each giant).
I'm sure the tactic is effective, I'm just not seeing how the fights would be THAT much different with the fighter just doing big damage instead.
Are you playing 3.5? If so, I'm thinking that something is odd here...
Assuming that the fighter has Improved Trip, and say 18 Strength, he makes a melee touch attack (easy enough) and then an opposed Strength check.
Fighter gets +8 (+4 for Strength, +4 for Improved Trip)
Giant gets +12 (+8 for Strength, +4 for being large)
So chances are the giant isn't going down, and then the giant can free attempt to trip the fighter, and the odds are in his favour. So mostly the fighter ends up on his backside, not the giant. (unless the fighter is tripping with a weapon, but then he's disarmed)
Even if the giant does go down, only the fighter gets an AOO, not everyone, and if he's unarmed, he's doing something like d3+4 damage?. True, if the giant stands up then everyone gets an AOO.
If you're using PF, then it may be different (I don't know the CMB/CMD rules well enough) but in 3.5 even a expert tripping medium PC is going to struggle against Stone Giants.
nope, we are playing pathfinder. the fighter has a +18 to trip cmb.
4str+10bab+4feats.
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In PF, A fighter 11 with improved and greater trip :
Strength say 22 :
CMB : 11 (BAB) + 6 (strength) = + 17
I don't remember if you can add The weapon enhancement bonuses and others (like weapon focus).
With a CMD of 30 the giant falls on a 13 or more. The fighter falls on a 3.
With his second attack the giant falls on an 18. The fighter falls on 8 or more.
This does not count any haste things of course.
So the odds are quite good.
our last encounter was 3 stone giants initially, then 2 more joined in. by the time we would have started fighting the other 2, 2 of the original 3 were dead, the other tripped to the ground and almost dead.
the battle before that was 2 stone giants and 3 dire bears. harder to trip the bears, but not unatainable.
The giants and bears both have a CMD of 30. Is tripping really so automatic against those guys? Seems like it would be a decent chance to miss unless the fighter has super stats or something. Also, if the giants spread out at all, then at most 1 is tripped per round at the cost of the tripping fighters turn (and the tripping fighter will draw AoO's while closing in on each giant).
I'm sure the tactic is effective, I'm just not seeing how the fights would be THAT much different with the fighter just doing big damage instead.
the player says he actually has a +20 trip (but I cant find the extra +2. so he needs a 10 to trip a stone giant at cmd 30. he has lunge, so he stops, and doesn't get hit with reach. if he doesnt trip with lunge, then he takes a 5ft step into the giant the next round and gets 2 attacks. so in theory he will trip on at least one of these attacks. it has been really rare for him to miss a trip.
the problem with the giants being spread out is that all the melee in our group hangs out with the tripper to get the AoO's when the gian goes down (greater trip), and when the giant gets back up. so if the giants want to attack (aside from throwing a rock, which usually miss because of high ACs, most of our melee have around AC 30, and we have 2 dwarves for another +4) they have to come in to the group, and the trip fighter.
So the odds are quite good.
Yes, I agree. The odds are quite good the fighter will fail the trip. While if he was just attacking he'd do damage on almost every attack.
Again, I think it's a good tactic, but I'm not seeing how it's way better than just doing big damage and killing the giants instead.
In PF, A fighter 11 with improved and greater trip :
Strength say 22 :
CMB : 11 (BAB) + 6 (strength) = + 17I don't remember if you can add The weapon enhancement bonuses and others (like weapon focus).
With a CMD of 30 the giant falls on a 13 or more. The fighter falls on a 3.
With his second attack the giant falls on an 18. The fighter falls on 8 or more.
This does not count any haste things of course.
So the odds are quite good.
you forgot the +4 for improved and greater trip. we are lvl 10, so:
BaB 10+ Str 4+ feats 4= 18, he says he has a 20 and is probably adding in his weapon bonus from mag wpn. but I dont see why you wouldn't add it. but even without it he has a +18.
edit: so you can't add your mag item bonus per the book. so still, thats a +18. he needs a 12.
So the odds are quite good.Yes, I agree. The odds are quite good the fighter will fail the trip. While if he was just attacking he'd do damage on almost every attack.
Again, I think it's a good tactic, but I'm not seeing how it's way better than just doing big damage and killing the giants instead.
its better because if (or when) he trips, he still does damage with an AoO, and any party members around the victim also get AoO's. it lends to a higher damage output from the party round to round.
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you forgot the +4 for improved and greater trip. we are lvl 10, so:
BaB 10+ Str 4+ feats 4= 18, he says he has a 20 and is probably adding in his weapon bonus from mag wpn. but I dont see why you wouldn't add it. but even without it he has a +18.
edit: so you can't add your mag item bonus per the book. so still, thats a +18. he needs a 12.
True I thought about it then forgot.
So he needs a 12. to trip on his second attack he needs a 17 though. And falls prone on a 7 or less unless he's got a trip weapon.
If you trip with greater trip, I don't think the tripper gets an AoA. Only the others.
its better because if (or when) he trips, he still does damage with an AoO, and any party members around the victim also get AoO's. it lends to a higher damage output from the party round to round.
Yes, I'm sure it does. But with ACs in the 30s I'm sure you wouldn't have problems with the giants regardless of whether the tripping is occuring or not.
you forgot the +4 for improved and greater trip. we are lvl 10, so:
BaB 10+ Str 4+ feats 4= 18, he says he has a 20 and is probably adding in his weapon bonus from mag wpn. but I dont see why you wouldn't add it. but even without it he has a +18.
edit: so you can't add your mag item bonus per the book. so still, thats a +18. he needs a 12.
True I thought about it then forgot.
So he needs a 12. to trip on his second attack he needs a 17 though. And falls prone on a 7 or less unless he's got a trip weapon.
If you trip with greater trip, I don't think the tripper gets an AoA. Only the others.
wth greater, when the victim is tripped it provokes and AoO. so long as the tripper hasn't used his, he gets one too.
its better because if (or when) he trips, he still does damage with an AoO, and any party members around the victim also get AoO's. it lends to a higher damage output from the party round to round.Yes, I'm sure it does. But with ACs in the 30s I'm sure you wouldn't have problems with the giants regardless of whether the tripping is occuring or not.
true enough. I'm not saying it hasn't worked out well for us, but our DM is increasingly frustrated by this tactic. I told him it will become less effective when we get into huge size monsters or larger, but then we have access to enlarge person/mass.
the player says he actually has a +20 trip (but I cant find the extra +2.
Probably Weapon Training
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true enough. I'm not saying it hasn't worked out well for us, but our DM is increasingly frustrated by this tactic. I told him it will become less effective when we get into huge size monsters or larger, but then we have access to enlarge person/mass.its better because if (or when) he trips, he still does damage with an AoO, and any party members around the victim also get AoO's. it lends to a higher damage output from the party round to round.Yes, I'm sure it does. But with ACs in the 30s I'm sure you wouldn't have problems with the giants regardless of whether the tripping is occuring or not.
At that point in RotRL (and you are actually done with Hook Mountain Massacre and have moved on to the beginning of Fortress of the Stone Giants) the giants are pretty much canon fodder anyway. At 10th level or so, you SHOULD be good at killing giants by now. There are much nastier things in Jorgenfist (the dark tower) than giants. ;-)
Your trip fighter might want to be careful though. Our party's flaming greataxe wielding fighter got so good at chopping down giants that eventually he got a reputation and they started ganging up on him. It kind of sucks when a group of 8 stone giants all decide to focus fire thrown rocks at you...
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Your trip fighter might want to be careful though. Our party's flaming greataxe wielding fighter got so good at chopping down giants that eventually he got a reputation and they started ganging up on him. It kind of sucks when a group of 8 stone giants all decide to focus fire thrown rocks at you...
Ah, did this in my Shackled City Campaign way back when. I had a ranger who was killer w/ a bow and had the Nemisis feat out of Boook of Exalted Deeds (BoED). I had the party get attacked at the inn one night by humans, outsiders, and a rogue with an outstanding stealth. All this occurred just to test the party, verify their tactics, and witness their abiliities. Once I legally knew what the players strengths were, I used the proper tactics against them. Made the rest of the campaign much more interesting.
Reputations can be good or bad. Just make sure that the enemy gains the information legally so your players can't cry foul later on. I told my players at the end of the campaign how and when I found out.
At that point in RotRL (and you are actually done with Hook Mountain Massacre and have moved on to the beginning of Fortress of the Stone Giants) the giants are pretty much canon fodder anyway. At 10th level or so, you SHOULD be good at killing giants by now. There are much nastier things in Jorgenfist (the dark tower) than giants. ;-)
Your trip fighter might want to be careful though. Our party's flaming greataxe wielding fighter got so good at chopping down giants that eventually he got a reputation and they started ganging up on him. It kind of sucks when a group of 8 stone giants all decide to focus fire thrown rocks at you...
This is true, many of the entries state that the initial fights with the giants usually have them running away when they realise that the PC's are something more powerful than normal squashy humans. They get back to Jorgenfist, Mokmorian starts to plan for the PCs attack, the base can be a much different place with some good intel. Mokmorian will work out his weak saves and take him out with appropriate spells...
And if word gets out about this fantastic hero that can trip up giants and pound them down, they're all going to want to be the giant that kills that hero. They're own foolish bravado means you're going to have one surrounded fighter (who still only has a certain limit of AOOs)
thats a great idea. we did just have 2 giants get away after trip stomping 3 others. I'll pass that on to my frustrated DM.