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I'm looking to provide my players in Legacy of fire advanced animals for their advancing characters. So I'm trying to work out costs and methods of advancement. Here is what I have come up with and I was interested what people may think (too much too little) and if anyone else has sold advanced mounts for their players. (Yes, I know a combat trained light warhorse is 110gp, but the math worked out better this way)
Horse, light (base creature - combat trained) CR1 = 75gp (Rarity = non magical item)
Horse, heavy (advanced - combat trained) CR 2 = 300gp (4x base creature) (Rarity = MW Item)
Horse, heavy (advanced X2 combat trained) CR 3 = 1200 gp (16 x base creature) (Rarity to a +1 sward)
Horse, heavy (advanced X3 combat trained) CR 4 = 4800 gp (64 x base creature) (Rarity to a +3 sward)
Horse, heavy (advanced X4 combat trained) CR 5 = 19200 (256 x base creature) (Rarity to a +5 sward)
Note: Rarity is a method I'm thinking of using that would flow into the availability of a mount, as per the general rules in Legacy Of Fire - The Jackals Price, The Katapesh Marketplace (example: we don't have that mount now, but given time and money for our trouble we can find it).
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Use variations in advancing creatures to account for local breading techniques.
Unique animals raised for their lineage: Apply the elite array (+4,+4, +2, +2, +0, -2) to the starting ability scores, arranged to suit the creature's strengths.
Animals raised for brute strength (savage humanoids): Apply adjustments from templates such as advanced templates: Quick Rules.
Animals raised for brute strength (civilized humanoids): Apply adjustments from templates such as advanced templates: Rebuild Rules.
Alpha animals: Advance by adding racial hit dice. For every 2 HD increase an animal by CR 1
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So for example to get an animal that was advanced 4X (from base creature of a light warhorse) it's progression could have been:
1) Horse, light
2) Horse, heavy
3) Horse, alpha male
4) Advanced templates: Quick Rules (Captured by orcs and brutally raised in the orc kings stables to be the kings mount)
A rare horse indeed...
Furthermore, perhaps the only way to acquire the horse above in my game would be to sack the Orc king. They don't have to be for sale, but could be quest or reward items.
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Flying Creatures:
Per the old book: Hippogriff eggs are worth 2,000gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 3,000gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000gp to rear or train a hippogriff.
hippogriff (base creature - combat trained) CR2 = 4000gp (Rarity to a +1 sward)
hippogriff, heavy (advanced - combat trained) CR 3 = 16000 gp (4x base creature) (Rarity +3 sward)
hippogriff, heavy (advanced X2 combat trained) CR 4 = 6400 gp (16 x base creature) (Rarity +5 sward)
hippogriff, heavy (advanced X3 combat trained) CR 5 = 25600 gp (64 x base creature) (Rarity epic sward)
Flying Creatures:
Griffon eggs are worth 3,5000gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 4500gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000gp to rear or train a Griffon.
Griffon (base creature - combat trained) CR4 = 5500gp (Rarity to a +2 sward)
Griffon, heavy (advanced - combat trained) CR 5 = 22000 gp (4x base creature) (Rarity +4 sward)
Griffon, heavy (advanced X2 combat trained) CR 6 = 88000 gp (16 x base creature) (Rarity epic sward)
Note: Rarity can "possibly" add cost to the creatures cost and time to acquire, such as 5 to 10% per +1 value. So the true cost for a griffon, heavy (advanced - combat trained) COULD be 30800gp or 40% more than listed and take a month to acquire.
Note (Core Rule Book): Characters eager for griffon mounts, however, should note that buying or forcibly domesticating intelligent creatures like griffons is still recognized as slavery by most good deities, and winning a griffon's allegiance of its own free will is no easy task. Reaching a mutually agreeable accord (or even a friendship) is a much more elegant and safe route to securing a griffon mount.
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Also, I know that in Legacy of fire the animal of choice would be a camel and that a general riding camel fetches around 300gp. Using the cost of a heavy horse to a heavy warhorse to determine how much a combat trained camel would cost I get: 400gp.
Camel, (base creature - combat trained) CR1 = 400gp (Rarity = non magical item)
Camel, heavy (advanced - combat trained) CR 2 = 1600gp (4x base creature) (Rarity to a +1 sward)
Camel, heavy (advanced X2 combat trained) CR 3 = 6400gp (16 x base creature) (Rarity to a +3 sward)
Camel, heavy (advanced X3 combat trained) CR 4 = 25600 gp (64 x base creature) (Rarity to a +5 sward)
I use a sward as my "rarity value" as a sward costs more then an animal and I think such animals would be rare indeed. So when in a city don't look at the animal's cost to see if a city would be able to have such an animal, but rather look at the value of the sward to see if the city would support such an animal for sale. Again, perhaps the only way to acquire the animals above in my game may be to sack the Orc king. They don't have to be for sale, but could be quest or reward items.
I'm not trying to take anything away from the value of an animal companion (and I would likely compensate a druid or cavalier in my game a bit). It's that, just at higher levels I'm looking to prevent animals from being blown out from under my heroes.
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This actually looks good. You might want to stick the pegasus in there somewhere (3.5 MM prices it exactly hippogriff level, which is silly because they're better in every way).
I would advise you not to bump up the animal companions for druids, paladins, cavaliers, rangers, wizards, etc. The big bonuses they get are as follows:
1) They already got companions for free. They didn't need to give up extra special cool loot for them.
2) Those companions have special conditions for free or cheap replacements.
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Hmmm, It seems a horse needs feats to carry armor or suffer the consequences, but even if a horse swapped out it's feats for armor proficiency it could never ware heavy armor as it dose not have the feats. So they only way a horse could ware heavy armor for a light horse to be advanced two times (light to heavy to advanced heavy). However you can't advance it via quick or rebuild rules as they don't provide feats. So a light horse has to be advanced using the, "adding racial hit dice" method.
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I found it in the D20PFSRD:
Combat Training (DC 20)
An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way. (An animal trained in this way counts as trained for war, and becomes proficient with all forms or armor. See FAQs and Animal Type.)
More info:
War Trained(11/25/09)
Q: The bestiary description of the Animal creature type states that they are "Proficient with no armor unless trained for war". How is this defined?
A: (James Jacobs 11/25/09) War trained is actually detailed in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook under the description of "Handle Animal," on page 98. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training." It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. As detailed on page 177 of the Bestiary, horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained-their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.
In any case, once the Cavalier goes to print, the language in the class about "war trained" will be cleaned up. [Source]
Horses(12/2/09)
Q: The bestiary seems to be missing the different types of horses and ponies that are listed in the 3.5 MM. What should be used for things like Warhorses and ponies?
A: (James Jacobs 12/2/09) We provide stats for a Horse (the Large version) and a Pony (the Medium version), so that Small and Medium creatures would have these classic animals around for mounts or pack animals. We probably should have been more obvious about this in the write-ups for the horse and pony in the Bestiary, I guess.
* Light horse = horse
* Heavy horse = advanced horse
* Light warhorse = horse with combat training
* Heavy warhorse = advanced horse with combat training
* Pony = pony
* Warpony = pony with combat training
* Donkey = pony
* Mule = advanced pony
* Camel = horse
The camel's sort of a special case, since it DOES have some different characteristics from the horse. And as a result, I'm relatively sure that camels will be showing up in the Bestairy 2. But until then, just using horse stats should work fine.[Source]
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Hmmm, It seems a horse needs feats to carry armor or suffer the consequences, but even if a horse swapped out it's feats for armor proficiency it could never ware heavy armor as it dose not have the feats. So they only way a horse could ware heavy armor for a light horse to be advanced two times (light to heavy to advanced heavy). However you can't advance it via quick or rebuild rules as they don't provide feats. So a light horse has to be advanced using the, "adding racial hit dice" method.
I could be wrong, but I believe that's why it's described as a 'light horse'.
They're generally intended for fast movement.If you want a horse to carry you into battle, covered in plate barding, then that's what the heavy horse is for.
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Actually the question was how dose a combat trained heavy warhorse ever carry heavy armor if it dose not have the feats for it. I thought the answer was answered in the highlighted section below.
Combat Training (DC 20) From D20PFSRD (See FAQs and Animal Type):
Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way. (An animal trained in this way counts as trained for war, and becomes proficient with all forms or armor. See FAQs and Animal Type.)
However, looking at the cavalier I see that his/her mount gets Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat at first level.
The (cavalier's) mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. Pg 33 APG.
That would indicate that the D20PFSRD rule above is obsolete and that a heavy warhorse couldn't ware heavy armor (since it dose not have 3 feats to swap - and if you can't swap a bonus feat then it could not ware medium armor either - without the penalties), unless you created a cavalier.
So if you purchased barding for your Pathfinder Society character's mount then you MAY need to swap the feats endurance for light armor proficiency and I'm not sure if you can swap the bonus feat run for medium armor proficiency. Since a heavy warhorse dose not have 3 feats it could not ware heavy armor (and likely medium armor) without suffering the armor check penalty consequence.
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Since a heavy warhorse dose not have 3 feats it could not ware heavy armor (and likely medium armor) without suffering the armor check penalty consequence.
It should have at least 3 feats, since a true heavy warhosre would have at least 5HD, maybe more, if you start bringing in beasts like Shire Horses, or similar.
You may have to swap out one of the standard feats they get defaulted with in the Bestiary, but that's always been DM's prerogative, and is justified by the fact it will have been trained from birth.
The horse in the Bestiary is a riding horse, for whom distance is the aim, or a wild horse that runs free, hence Endurance.
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Unfortunately a heavy horse has only two hit dice because it uses the advanced simple template rules in the bestiary. Thus a heavy warhorse has one feat and the bonus feat run (Which I'm unsure if it can be swapped out for medium armor proficiency - my guess would be it can not). Granted if you home rule it you can do why you like, but what about Pathfinder Society play?
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This actually looks good. You might want to stick the pegasus in there somewhere (3.5 MM prices it exactly hippogriff level, which is silly because they're better in every way).
I don't have too much of a problem with the Pegasus at the same cost of the hippogriff, because it's really slavery to purchase one, like the griffon. Thus, most characters I run in AP's would never buy one as such, since I never run evil campaigns. Further, since their are fewer people willing to purchase such mounts the price comes down in relation to that fact. To get a Pegasus or griffon in my game you would really have to raise it from egg or they would have to choose you, etc. Still in, "Legacy of Fire" these animals would be for sale. After such a sale my merchant would then offer the requisite magic items to dominate the mounts so the characters are not immediately thrown off. Dang those hidden costs!
The black Pegasus below is in reference to the one possibly available in Katapesh from LoF (Otherwise color can vary).
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Pegasi lay eggs—they are worth 2,000 gp each on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp per head. Pegasi mature at the same rate as horses. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a Pegasus. However, as they are intelligent, good-aligned creatures, selling eggs and young is essentially slavery and is looked down on or outlawed in good societies and by good aligned gods.
Flying Creatures Pegasus:
Pegasus, (base creature - combat trained) CR2 = 4000gp (Rarity to a +3 sward)
Pegasus, black (advanced - combat trained) CR 3 = 16000 gp (4x base creature) (Rarity +5 sward)
Pegasus, mighty heroic (advanced X2 combat trained) CR 4 = 64000 gp (16 x base creature) (Rarity Epic)
Second advancement rules for a mighty heroic pegasus:
In some pegasi, the blood of a mighty heroic stallion ancestor runs strong. These champions have the lifespan of a human, the advanced template (already applied from the first advancement), perfect flight maneuverability, fire resistance 10, a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, maximum hit points and immunity to petrifaction attacks. Some are able to speak a few words in Common or Celestial. They are fully aware of their superiority over common horses and pegasi, and need no training to fly with a rider, but only allow themselves to be ridden by great heroes.
More info on the srd: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-p/pegasus
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After such a sale my merchant would then offer the requisite magic items to dominate the mounts so the characters are not immediately thrown off (Thus the cost griffons and pegasi are not as cheep as they may seem) . Dang those hidden costs!
Amulet of Bestial Control
Aura moderate enchantment; CL 7thSlot neck; Price 28,000gp; Weight .5 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This amulet is designed to allow the instant taming of willful magical beasts such as griffons and pegasi to bare riders. This item comes in a set of two amulets, one for the mount and one for its master. Once the mount and the master are both wearing the amulets the mount will be affected as by charm monster and treat its new master as a trusted friend and ally.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Charm Monster; 4 Ranks Handle Animal; Cost 14,000gp.
Method of creation: Continuous activated item = 4 x 7 x 2,000gp = 56,000. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half = 28,000gp
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Alternatively I could have the same amulet as above, but make them very similar in appearance and size and as magic wondrous items one size fits all (man and mount). That could allow for some interesting roll playing encounters with having a mount control its rider. Additionally adding a distance limitation between rider and mount to maintain the effect would reduce the cost by 30%. So:
Lesser Amulet of Bestial Control
Aura moderate enchantment; CL 7th
Slot neck; Price 19,600gp; Weight 1 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This amulet is designed to allow the instant taming of willful magical beasts such as griffons and pegasi to bare riders. This item comes in a set of two amulets, one for the mount and one for its master. Once the mount and the master are both wearing the amulets the mount will be affected as by charm monster and treat its new master as a trusted friend and ally. Caution should be used as the amulets are very similar in appearance and size and an undesired result may occur if they were put one incorrectly. Additionally, the amulets are only effective when they are within a range of 500' feet of each other.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Charm Monster; 4 Ranks Handle Animal; Cost 9,800gp.
Method of creation: Continuous activated item = 4 x 7 x 2,000gp = 56,000. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half = 28,000gp Subtract 30% for including limitations into magic device = 19,600gp. I calculated distance and the range the spell would be able to be cast (close range - 7th level caster) X 10 = 500'
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Unfortunately a heavy horse has only two hit dice because it uses the advanced simple template rules in the bestiary.
I had to go check that, since it goes against every edition of D&D I've ever played.
This is the statblock I'm used to;Heavy Warhorse
Looking closer, it appears that the heavy horse on the pfSRD is a fan-creation.
I'd seriously apply more HD to the basic riding horse, since the horses used for long-range travelling and the ones used for short charges in war have been selectively bred for so long, they're virtually different species.
It would be like applying the simple template to a cheetah, to make a tiger.
Any of the staff care to comment?
Will we be getting stats for a 4HD or more warhorse?
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This is what the , "Pathfinder Roll Playing Game, Beastiary" says about the heavy war horse:
Heavy Horse: A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template. In addition, it also gains a bite attack that inflicts 1d4 damage, and its hoof damage increases to 1d6. As with a light horse, a heavy horse can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
Here is the simple template for advancing a creature:
Advanced Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.
Thus, you gain no additional hit dice and no additional feats. The Advanced players guide indicated for the first time that horses require feats to obtain armor proficency in this statement (page 33 second paragraph):
The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat.
What's more is that if you are playing a society game you may not swap any feats out for animals (Otherwise people would choose multiattack for there mounts) thus, no mount may have any armor proficiency. So for all those knights (fighter builds) attacking with a horse GM's need to ensure the are taking appropriate armor check penalties against there attacks.
Granted it may not be that big a deal except for low levels, but some people just love there mounts and that extra roll of the dice (with a chance at a hit). Furthermore, with not a clear rule except for that one sentence in the APG it may be difficult for GM's to convince players that they need to take a penalty to their mounts attack. Whats even funner is that in the d20pfrpg is this (unofficial) line:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/handle-animal under combat training:
An animal trained in this way (combat) counts as trained for war, and becomes proficient with all forms or armor.
Joy...
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My revised 'home rule' ideas for mounts. This stems from the idea that in in LoF when you visit to the great market you should be AWED at the choices.
LOF, Legacy of Fire - The Jackal’s Price - The Katapesh Marketplace - The Great Camel-Mart:
While a general riding camel fetches around 300 gp, beasts from the more noble lines can cost 10 or even 20 times that. Such beasts may grant a +2 bonus on Ride checks, have maximum hit points or elite statistics, or simply come from a line celebrated in some song or tale.
Also from what James Jacobs wrote:
"Feats are ALWAYS swap outable. You should be able to buy "specialty" horses with unusual feats anyway; maybe one with Toughness and Lightning Reflexes. Swapping out the feats is a cool way to model different horse breeds, in fact."
I saw what I did above was to much and I revised the mounts (horse/camel). Instead of going up 1 CR at a time I decided to go up 1 HD at a time, big difference. So potential mounts could be.
2HD (light)
3HD (light) improved
2HD Advanced (Heavy)
4 HD (Heavy) (Alternate breed - more HP less damage)
3HD Advanced (Great)
4HD Advanced (Noble)
Now play with the feats (for a cost) and you have an endless number of mounts. The cost counter acts what animal companions bring to a character as they will have magic items as well as a much superior mount.
stjstone - how has this worked out for your group?