Demon Disciple


Homebrew and House Rules


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So for our Council of Thieves campaign we all ended up playing Tieflings. Which is working out pretty well, but makes going into the "Dragon Disciple" class kind of hard to justify. So I modified the Dragon Disciple into the "Demon Disciple" to fit our theme.

Principle changes:


  • d10 instead of d12 HD.
  • 4+Int skill points instead of 2+Int skill points
  • Bluff instead of Escape Artists
  • DR Silver equal to class level instead of AC bonus
  • Ability increases every 4 levels instead of every 2
  • Darkvision and True Seeing instead of Blindsense
  • Ability to Summon Demons instead of Dragon Form
  • No bite attack
  • No wings
  • Expanded to 15 levels
  • Teleport at will at 15th level

Check it out here and let me know what you think.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Having built a few homebrew classes and regretted my generosity every time, my major, overwhelming advice would be to drastically cut back on the DR - possibly 1 every three levels. It's a much, much more powerful ability than the AC boost, as I learned to much DM-ing pain.

I'd also let them add the Teleport to their spell list as a bonus bloodline spell rather than have it at will. That, or make it a full round action - otherwise it's rather overpowering :)

Oh, and I'd change True Seeing to Arcane Sight.

Now I'm off to think about the rest :-)

I also recommend the LPJ Prestige Class Cookbook.


Several observations:

1) True seeing at all times is a bit too much. You just eliminated the functionality of illusions, invisibility included, as well as some of the benefit of shape-changing magic. As well as other things.

2) You're giving the character all of his normal bloodline abilities? So why would anyone stay a sorcerer since you'll get the abilities of their bloodline plus this class? Does it include bloodline feats from the sorcerer's bloodline?

3) Additional ability score boosts are going to be problematic. You're slowing down the advancement of the character's spell progression, which is a potential balancing point. But that sorcerer can just keep bumping up their Charisma, all the while their strength goes up from the Abyssal bloodline. You'll end up with a sorcerer with a Charisma stat growing fast enough to compensate for their reduced rate of new spell level acquisition and then some.

4) I'm mixed on the DR. I want to see it in play first, but you might want to use the fighter or barbarian as benchmarks here, more the barbarian.

6) I like the darkvision; you could easily upgrade it to something like 30' per 5 levels with little trouble, or 10'/level.

7) Demon summoning is nice and flavorful. You might also consider just adding the appropriate spells to the sorcerer's list of spells known, perhaps with a capstone to summon demons as summon monster IX. Just a thought.

8) Teleport at will, even the classic demon version, is pretty potent. You just invented the ultimate courier.

I'm thinking that if I had the opportunity I'd always take this class. I'll never get 9th level spells, but all the other goodies like permanent true seeing and teleport self at will will keep me happy for a while, let alone losing next to nothing from the sorcerer (spells, bloodline powers, bloodline arcana). That's usually a sign that it's too good.


I think you're overdoing it. The dragon disciple is a fairly good representation of a demon as-is; you don't need to go overboard with changes.

The only thing I'd change except for the obvious (blood of dragons to blood of demons and the like) is Str +2 at 2nd level to Int +2, Blindsense 30ft to Darkvision 60ft, Blindsense 60 ft. to See Invisibility 60 ft., and Dragon Form to Planar Ally (demon only).

You have to be careful when changing the Dragon Disciple, because it's a class that turns a full caster/no combat class into a almost full caster/some combat class. Since it boosts weaknesses instead of strengths, it's limited in power. Be very careful not to switch it to boosting the sorcerer's strengths, because then it can easily go out of hand as all sorcerers would want to become disciples.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks for the feedback. I went back and forth on the DR level. I'm thinking that DR equal to half there level may be better, though it does eliminate the nice symmetry bettwen the character and demons, which typicaly have DR/10, and at 10th level, where this class traditionaly ends, they would also have DR 10.

1) True Seeing continues is a bit much. But note that Dragon Disciples get blind sense which is similar, if less potent. True Seeing is also an iconic demonic ability. But maybe a number of uses/day would be more appropriate.

2) Dragon Disciple also gives all the bloodline abilities, so this is no different in this regard (in fact Dragon Disciple gives access to some of them early).

3) The ability score increases are less potent then the those the Dragon Disciple gives (though the abyssal bloodline counters this somewhat). I am considering forbidding taking the same ability advance twice in a row.

6) Hmm, hadn't considered adjusting the progression. Didn't want to give to much, demons only get 60' typically.

7) The demon summoning ability is designed to mimic the Dragon Form ability. Dragon disciples get access to a 6th and then 7th level spell. The demon diciple is similar, except they get early access to a 5th level spell. Usage/day is the same.

8) Teleport at will is very good, but note its the 20th level capstone. It was more a theoretical addition as I doubt it will see play.

It's hard to balance against Dragon Disciple, as it is itself a potent class.


Max Mahem wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. I went back and forth on the DR level. I'm thinking that DR equal to half there level may be better, though it does eliminate the nice symmetry bettwen the character and demons, which typicaly have DR/10, and at 10th level, where this class traditionaly ends, they would also have DR 10.

Full time DR 10 is extremely powerfull. Look at the Barbarian and Fighters who only get DR 5 at level 20 or so as a comparison. High DR is far, far more powerful than an AC boost.

Max Mahem wrote:
1) True Seeing continues is a bit much.

Continuous true sight is bad. It is extremely potent as point out in other posts. Continuosu see invis is very good but not game shattering and fore more outsisiders have that than True Sight.

Max Mahem wrote:
2) Dragon Disciple also gives all the bloodline abilities, so this is no different in this regard (in fact Dragon Disciple gives access to some of them early).

Dangerous game that. If there is a prestige class that lets you have all your main class abilties and more from the PrC that is usually a good sign of a broken class. The whole point of a PrC is a refinement. If you keep all your bloodline abiltites then that seem to be no downside to leaving sorc. There should be a trade off when you PrC not a wholesale addition of good powers.

Max Mahem wrote:
7) The demon summoning ability is designed to mimic the Dragon Form ability. Dragon disciples get access to a 6th and then 7th level spell. The demon diciple is similar, except they get early access to a 5th level spell. Usage/day is the same.

Then why not give then a demon form? Summoning an entire extra entity is giving additional options and powers and, most importantly, actions to be used. Making them gain a more demonlike form is preserving the existing concept while puting the infernal twist on it.

Max Mahem wrote:
8) Teleport at will is very good, but note its the 20th level capstone. It was more a theoretical addition as I doubt it will see play.

Teleport at will is devastatingly powerful, as any party who has fought against an enemy who can do so can tell you. Having a whole group of players who can do so is just wild. Travel takes no time, ever. Getting back to town for supplies in the middle of antying is easy. Threats are non existant as long as the enemy cannot teleport block them or cannot kill them in one round before they can act. Any time any danger gets too much the can all just 'pop back to town' and be perfectly safe, rest, heal and get back instantly.

Also, they will put every courier business in your world out of business. That alone would cause many powerful crime cartels and 'big businesses' try to kill them alone.

You really, really do not want them to have it at will. Trust me.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Okay some revisions taking the above advice into account.

  • DR reduced to 1/2 level
  • True Seeing replaced with See Invisibility
  • Ability bonuses scaled back up to on par w/ Dragon Disciple (1 ever 2 levels), retained the flexibility in choice, but restricted the same choice from being taken consecutively.
  • Removed teleport

    Still wanting some sort of 'capstone' ability for 20th though I suppose SMIX qualifies, it's not that satisfying.

    Answers to some questions:
    Why no demon form?
    Mainly because I wanted to stick to just Pazio material for this, and there is no comparable form of the demon spell (like there is form of the dragon).

    Anyways, check out the revised version


  • Gilfalas wrote:


    Full time DR 10 is extremely powerfull. Look at the Barbarian and Fighters who only get DR 5 at level 20 or so as a comparison. High DR is far, far more powerful than an AC boost.

    Fighters and barbarians gain DR 5/-. This DR will be overcome by silver, mithril or +3 weapons. Still very powerful, but far less than unbreakable DR.

    Quote:
    If you keep all your bloodline abiltites then that seem to be no downside to leaving sorc. There should be a trade off when you PrC not a wholesale addition of good powers.

    Over 10 levels, you lose 3 caster levels - meaning you'll never reach 9th level spells.

    Quote:
    Then why not give then a demon form? Summoning an entire extra entity is giving additional options and powers and, most importantly, actions to be used. Making them gain a more demonlike form is preserving the existing concept while puting the infernal twist on it.

    Probably because there's no Form of the Fiend spell or the like. It would be a LOT of new text. Also, shapechanging is something every dragon can do, but not summoning. Summoning is something every demon can do, but not shapechanging. And even though action economy IS important, remember that this class is made for a caster - what these abilities do is save spells known and spells per day.

    EDIT: OP, I still think you should reduce it to 10 levels. It's standard for PRC's, and it's enough - you don't need more levels of it. One thing that's unbalancing though, is the ability increases. You can choose what here - that's the unbalancing thing, when charisma is one of the choices. Charisma is more important than all other stats for a sorcerer, and +6 to charisma at level 10 is far more powerful than the DD's +4 str, +2 int, +2 con.

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