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So I've just launched the Kingmaker campaign (I've adapted the setting to Eberron's Breland-Droaam frontier) and have a couple of reactions.
First, it flows really well and for the most part my players took well the sandbox idea.
They also took heartily to the idea of exploration, with the idea of mapping out their future kingdom.
(I fleshed out the exploration rules significantly, adding in more natural threats and expanding the opportunity to find natural resources. I wanted sort of a Civilization IV quality to this phase of the game.)
One wrinkle is that I've been urging the players to think a little more 'realistically' about consolidating their gains.
For example, using their skills and abilities to fortify Oleg's outpost; and training their horses into war-ready mounts -- that kind of up front investment that might give them advantages later.
I'm trying to get them on a track to think of their characters less as marauders or itinerant heroes and more as people who are taking ownership.
I plan to handle most of the mechanics of that stuff away from the game table, through PBEM and other mechanisms, so that our actual face-to-face game time can be more dynamic.
One cool dimension is that a couple of the players have begun to think in detail about ways they can simply co-opt the Stag Lord and the bandits, avoiding direct confrontation.
Can he (or one of his henchmen) be bribed? Can he be enlisted as a member of their party? can his forces be enlisted as mercenaries?
I'm trying to keep an open mind about all this.
Bottom line: very cool.
Marsh
Sounds like a good group. The Stag Lord -- probably not unless you really change his background story.I could see them coopt a couple of his men though.Keep us updated. I love to read how everyone's campaigns are going. I still haven't started ours yet. I can't wait -- this will be awesome --especially incorporating all the cool ideas on these posts. Thank you everyone!!
thnx,
PJ
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One cool dimension is that a couple of the players have begun to think in detail about ways they can simply co-opt the Stag Lord and the bandits, avoiding direct confrontation.Can he (or one of his henchmen) be bribed? Can he be enlisted as a member of their party? can his forces be enlisted as mercenaries?
I'm trying to keep an open mind about all this.
Bottom line: very cool.
Marsh
Certainly- my pbp group hve recruited Kressle after besting her and delivering her long-lost sister to her. A public trial was held for her after she willfully surrendered and aided the heroes, with Olwg delivering twenty lashes to her in penance.
The AP mostly provides the stat blocks and meta-plot, details like redeeming villains is really down to the DM. Hopefully Warforged Gardener will spot this thread- his PC's have made an alliance with the Stag Lord...
One cool dimension is that a couple of the players have begun to think in detail about ways they can simply co-opt the Stag Lord and the bandits, avoiding direct confrontation.Can he (or one of his henchmen) be bribed? Can he be enlisted as a member of their party? can his forces be enlisted as mercenaries?
I'm trying to keep an open mind about all this.
Bottom line: very cool.
Marsh
My players were already at fourth by the time the Stag Lord rolled around, so I added a few bandits: a Restovian elemental(water)-bloodline sorcerer named "Blue" Mikhail (after his naturally blue-black hair) as a rival to the party mage, and Lira, a blonde Aldori-style swordswoman from Restov who had basically been impressed into service (and the unwilling attentions of Dovan.
I expanded on the bandits' personalities, making Topper Red a second-level CN bard (he is said to be street poet from Pitax), so the party delivered Staggy's booze, and then while they managed to bluff Dovan et al, Topper made his Sense Motive check and began covertly getting across that he and Akiros were displeased with their lot in life.
Jex the Snitch eventually found out the plot, but then it became my three players plus Akiros, Lira, and Topper, versus the Stag Lord and the rest of the bandits.
Afterwords, the so-nicknamed "ALT" trio has joined up with the party to help them establish their new kingdom.
Some people on this board wrote an interesting backstory of the Stag Lord as a leader who very much believes in strength and responsibility... but who is a total drunkard.
Inspired by their work, I played him this way, prepared for the players to attempt to enlist him since he was "bringing civilization to the stolen lands" but I was not too disturbed when they ended up slaying him.
Currently the players have negotiated with (1) one bandit who was an emissary from a bandit group in Brevoy (he's their contact in Brevoy now); hired another (2) who was a mercenary as their own mercenary; (3) recruited Topper Red who is a foul mouthed bard, but who the party considers amusing- a court jester like character; (4) are currently deciding what to do with a beat-up Auchs [Akiros and him got into it after Akiros took down Dovan, but Akiros just knocked him unconscious]; (5) Had mercy on Akiros and (6) Fat Norry; (7) the party druid had a bizarre conversation with the Stag Lord's father, and ended up releasing him out into the world after a peaceful- but crazy pseudo-philosophical dialogue.
I think it's pretty legitimate if the party wants to challenge the stag lord for leadership of the lands to go head to head with him in a wrestling match or a drinking contest or three rounds of those events and something else. The stag lord will need to be cured of his alcoholism, however, or else he's going to be too erratic for the players to trust.
Some bandits however, like Dovan, will probably fight the characters if the Stag Lord turns toward them. I can see him stabbing the Stag Lord in the back if the players side with him. And even a darker-played Akiros might decide to go after the Stag Lord if he bows before the players-- potentially out of spite.
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I think I hear someone talking about me. <g>
Using the backstory of the Stag Lord, filling in the gaps and making some logical leaps based on the very detailed job Tim Hitchcock did with the character(hands down, one of my favorite villains of any AP so far), I played the Stag Lord as more Lawful Evil than Chaotic Evil, trying to imagine what someone would be like if they were treated like an animal most of their childhood. He has no pity, mercy, or kindness in him, but he's not evil for the sake of being evil. I played him as the living embodiment of the River Freedoms, particularly the last, "You have what you hold." He takes because he can, and he kills when necessary but wouldn't bother if someone wasn't a threat(with the exception of those who disgust him, like Davik Nettles... whose history I expanded a bit so that he paid off several of the bandits to inflate his reputation and proved himself a coward and worse when the Stag Lord came to personally witness his strength and possibly reward him for it, as he rewarded Kressle for her show of strength).
When my players infiltrated his fort as Kressle's new recruits(they'd slowly managed to befriend her over several weeks and forced her into a serious conflict between her fervent belief in the Stag Lord and her belief in the PC's), it was Dovan who figured out that they weren't who they claimed to be and he "called jackal on them," which triggered a massive ambush combat that eventually awoke the Stag Lord. He refused to even entertain a truce without an even exchange of blood for blood...namely for one of the PC's to submit to being taken into the negatives just as Dovan was in the combat. The PC's chief negotiator is willing to risk being at the mercy of the Stag Lord in the name of a truce, but Akiros, who has seen the Stag Lord's greatness sink to the bottom of a bottle at Dovan's careful urging, refuses to let another drop of blood be spilled. His fight with the Stag Lord is joined by the PC's, and after a grueling battle, the Stag Lord prepares to die fighting, taking just a moment to express his pride that Akiros was the one to end him.
The party cleric, who has been dispensing mercy and trying to redeem as many lost souls as he finds in the Greenbelt, surprises everyone by refusing to let the Stag Lord die. He saves his life and shows him the second act of kindness he's experienced in his entire tortured life(the first, per the backstory, was his encounter with Nyrissa, which had a dramatic effect on his view of the world). A barbarian warrior might have scoffed at such mercy, a less scrupulous villain might have taken advantage of the act, but my take on the Stag Lord was not that he refuses to show mercy or kindness--he doesn't have a frame of reference. It's like describing colors to a blind man.
As someone whose fate was altered once before by an act of perceived kindness, he fights alongside the PCs when the escaped owlbear rages through the compound and afterward allows them to pursue their truce, all the while trying to understand his new place in the world and the reason for his continued existence. Is it Her? Having given up so long ago on the hope that his Dream would come back to him, having failed and self-sabotaged his grand plans to build an empire for her as a gift, is this strange confluence of events somehow Her way of leading him somewhere...perhaps back to Her?
There's a great deal more to it than I've said, but eventually the Stag Lord is rechristened Narlmarch and appointed Warden of the new community. I told my players that they should make no mistakes about what they can and can not accomplish with someone as deeply damaged as the Stag Lord. Years and years of abuse has cut most of the humanity out of him. He was a leader by default, given power and respect by those who met him, but he never sought power for himself(thus his failed ambitions, which never possessed enough passion to be more than daydreams). It's not a problem for him to serve someone he considers worthy, but the Stag Lord is not someone who can be redeemed so much as "reprogrammed," like a Terminator. His humanity is atrophied and may never heal enough to change his inability to care for others or himself, but he can be given a new purpose and will follow that purpose until death. The bargain struck, the thing offered to him that he would willingly trade fealty for? The PC's have promised to find this Dream woman and reunite him with her.
A side note on Davik Nettles: Davik and the Stag Lord are eternally linked. The Stag Lord's death sets the evil revenant to rest, but so long as the Stag Lord lives and is allied with the PCs, Davik's fury and hatred should grow until he becomes a very dangerous threat to the community that shelters and gives comfort to his murderer. In our campaign, Davik's effective immortality and gradual mastery of all rivers, rather than just the waters where he died, has made him a recurring villain.
I fully endorse any group that wants to go against the grain and is willing to work hard to redeem the bandits and particularly the Stag Lord, and they should receive the reward of a very powerful ally if they succeed through good roleplay or careful planning, but the more realistic the consequences, the more awesome the ultimate victory.
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As if I haven't already prattled on past the point of indulgence, I'm including two links to the mostly sealed campaign journals of our group so those that missed it earlier can read my take on the Bandit Fort, as well as a later confrontation between the Stag Lord and the undead and bloodthirsty Davik Nettles.
Fair Warning: the journals contains some adult language, themes, and all that you might expect from a bandit fort and angry undead. There are no real spoilers if players wish to read either, but you should let your DM read it first and decide.
As if I haven't already prattled on past the point of indulgence, I'm including two links to the mostly sealed campaign journals of our group so those that missed it earlier can read my take on the Bandit Fort, as well as a later confrontation between the Stag Lord and the undead and bloodthirsty Davik Nettles.
Fair Warning: the journals contains some adult language, themes, and all that you might expect from a bandit fort and angry undead. There are no real spoilers if players wish to read either, but you should let your DM read it first and decide.
WOW, that really fleshes out some of the NPCs. I really enjoyed the read.
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Captain Marsh:
As a point, I believe that the errand from Rostland/Brevoy which gives the PCs the BP influx that they need to set up a kingdom is dependent on the Staglord's demise or capture and his being sent to Restov. He's a major player in the bandit problem on the southern border and (as written) it's the act of getting him out of the way which convinces the swordlords that the PCs are useful enough potential allies to provide the resources to have a hope of getting a kingdom going. I think the PCs would need to do something else pretty amazing to win Restov's faith to that extent if they want to leave the staglord alive and free.
Actually, the text of the quest has two options, clearly delineated: send his body or we come to see for ourselves that the banditry has ceased.
My group had to make do with the second option, although they considered sending just the helm or a substitute body. The magic available to high-level nobles made either option a waste of effort(which Charles just pointed out). In fact, there's a new spell in the APG I think that tops Speak with Dead for the morbidly curious. Blood History, I think it's called?
Since Restov clearly cares more about eliminating the bandit threat than the Stag Lord's demise(though his death would be sufficient proof for them of the former), keeping him alive or even working with him shouldn't interfere with the disbursement of BP. It would, however, make finishing Nettles' quest impossible.
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(edited, tweaked)
Oh yes, blood history is a nuisance for murder-mystery situations if the APG is in play. :-kI think Rostland would love to be certain that the Staglord's dead or sitting in one of their dungeons, as it would help them with some stability/loyalty checks in their own country, and give them a chip in the Brevoy political stakes: 'Look, not only have adventurers we hired taken care of the bandit problem, but they polished off a notorious villain/troublemaker on our southern borders, too'. In a number of recent real world conflicts, it hasn't been enough to win military victories, but the enemy leaders have to be accounted for too, because the victors either need to punish them or want to see them dead so that they can't make future trouble.
It's possible that a fantasy realm of a different culture and age such as Brevoy might be able to afford to be more chivalrous though...
Those are valid points, but keep in mind Brevoy is practically two countries and devolves into near-civil war not long after the colony is formed. What Brevoy wants should be treated with a grain of salt throughout the campaign otherwise the party may well think the problems up there require their involvement and that's a whole other campaign. Given that Brevoy was where the bandits were plying their trade, you're absolutely right that they would want the Stag Lord's head...but the charter to colonize isn't contingent on it. They would just prefer that's how the PCs handle the bandit problem. In order to maintain their distance and not provoke their neighbors with the power grab, they can't be seen as "running" the new colony. They need plausible deniability as well as influence, so ultimately it falls on the PCs how to accomplish their missions from Restov, per the AP. Other GMs may want to increase Brevoy's involvement, especially if they're running the kingdom in the background.
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(much edited)
I think we may be partially posting past one another now. I had to read your post several times to make sure you weren't saying that at this early stage in the path the PCs can dictate whatever terms they like to Rostland.
Not at all, but the whole connection between Rostland and the PCs is very tenuous even at the beginning of the AP. They "give permission" to explore, which they can't lawfully give since it's disputed territory, and they offer nothing as payment until the group accomplishes some of the odd jobs listed in the covers and throughout the first volume. Depending on the group, a GM could have Rostland up their rears the whole first chapter or they could treat it like a secret CIA mission and show no public sign of alliance and give the PCs carte blanche on how they accomplish their "mission." Kingmaker is a very flexible AP and it would be wrong of me to imply that there's only one way of doing things even within the political framework.
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Hi folks -
.Finally, a trivia sort of question. I note that one of the Azata celestials is known as the Stag Lord.
Did this detail come up in anyone's campaigns, as a confusing or red herring element?
Marsh
Not in mine, but there is a weird sort of recurring theme with Erastil and stag imagery here and there. The one that stood out for me was the Horned One or whatever he's called in Part 6.