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Okay, I get that there's a new line in the Alchemist description that indicates they do not need spellcraft to perform the "decipher arcane writings" step of scribing a new scroll. I also understand that there's a discussion regarding whether or not Alchemists can scribe off of scrolls. My question involves neither.
My question is this. What does an Alchemist really lose now by not taking spellcraft? Are they incapable of knowing what spell is on a scroll until they get a wizard to read magic or spellcraft on it? Are there any other penalties besides the obvious "you can't ID magic items as easily?" Just wonderin'.
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Okay, I get that there's a new line in the Alchemist description that indicates they do not need spellcraft to perform the "decipher arcane writings" step of scribing a new scroll. I also understand that there's a discussion regarding whether or not Alchemists can scribe off of scrolls. My question involves neither.
My question is this. What does an Alchemist really lose now by not taking spellcraft? Are they incapable of knowing what spell is on a scroll until they get a wizard to read magic or spellcraft on it? Are there any other penalties besides the obvious "you can't ID magic items as easily?" Just wonderin'.
Yeah, spellcraft is the skill involved with identifying what spell if any is being cast by another individual. Say you have an alchemist, and he has no ranks in spellcraft. He has no idea what any given spellcaster is casting while he is in the process of doing it, in fact unless they have knowledge arcana to back this up as well, after the fact of the spell being cast they ALSO may not know what spell it is, even if it is common sense to the player that the spell was a magic missile, your character doesn't know that. He simply views the effects of the magic.
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He has no idea what any given spellcaster is casting while he is in the process of doing it, in fact unless they have knowledge arcana to back this up as well, after the fact of the spell being cast they ALSO may not know what spell it is, even if it is common sense to the player that the spell was a magic missile, your character doesn't know that. He simply views the effects of the magic.
From a mechanical standpoint I don't agree with this statement. Somebody without ranks of spellcraft might not understand that the words "Kaltu, Verata, Necktie" and various hand gestures are used to cast magic missile, but the moment five glowing balls of force fly out of the caster's hand, I think it's pretty clear what's being cast. By this logic somebody without spellcraft would be scratching their head wondering what the burning ball of fire is that just came flying from the caster and blew up a 20' radius, instead of just realizing that they got hit with a fireball.
Where spellcraft is useful in identifying spells being cast is on the more subtle spells. Was that spell that failed to penetrate your will save a hold person or a charm persion? Was the glowing magic aura that surrounded the caster a sanctuary spell or a magic vestment? Spells like that.
But my question has nothing to do with that aspect of spellcraft. I'm wondering what, if any, hindrance does an alchemist suffer in performing his "standard" class-based activities without a spellcraft skill. The way I'm reading the class, there are none (since they can copy spells without the decipher arcane writings step), but I'm wondering what I'm missing.
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As far as I can tell you still have to make a DC 15+ spell level check to add the formula to the formulabook. Decyphering and adding to the spellbook are two separate steps, with wizards it's typically handwaved because they have read magic.
For reference:
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
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0gre,
Okay, I'll buy that. It's just the sentence structure is a little less than clear which was causing my confusion. In other words. You need to normally decipher the writings (that's under the "scrolls" section of the magic item chapter if anybody's interested). Since alchemists don't need to decipher writings, that step is ignored.
Alchemists do though have to "study the spell" for an hour, which then requires a spellcraft check to scribe. In other words, an alchemist without spellcraft is pretty horribly handicapped.
I think when I GM I'll let them use alchemy rather than spellcraft. I like the idea that they're not arcane casters and do not need to have an understanding of magic to utilize spells.
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From a mechanical standpoint I don't agree with this statement. Somebody without ranks of spellcraft might not understand that the words "Kaltu, Verata, Necktie" and various hand gestures are used to cast magic missile, but the moment five glowing balls of force fly out of the caster's hand, I think it's pretty clear what's being cast. By this logic somebody without spellcraft would be scratching their head wondering what the burning ball of fire is that just came flying from the caster and blew up a 20' radius, instead of just realizing that they got hit with a fireball.
Where spellcraft is useful in identifying spells being cast is on the more subtle spells. Was that spell that failed to penetrate your will save a hold person or a charm persion? Was the glowing magic aura that surrounded the caster a sanctuary spell or a magic vestment? Spells like that.
But my question has nothing to do with that aspect of spellcraft. I'm wondering what, if any, hindrance does an alchemist suffer in performing his "standard" class-based activities without a spellcraft skill. The way I'm reading the class, there are none (since they can copy spells without the decipher arcane writings step), but I'm wondering what I'm missing.
They can understand well and good that a fireball just lept from the hands of the wizard but they by no means know that it is the spell, fireball... if you understand what I am saying. Yes they know magic occurred but they have no idea what specific magic it was, as they untrained and ignorant of its ways. Regardless, this would end up being one of more difficult if not unenforceable applications of the skill system as it is.
But to directly answer your second question... No not really. Even potions can be made using craft alchemy. If you wanted to make more exotic things you would need spellcraft in that case but... thats all I can really think of.
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I might let them use craft(alchemy) for other alchemists books but translating the cryptic writings of fraazled the mighty conjurer into an alchemical formula should require spellcraft.
*shrug* or not, considering reading clerical scrolls is also a spellcraft check.
My thought is all the spellcraft stuff should be rolled into k(arcana) and the clerical stuff into k(religion) and alchemical stuff into craft(alchemy) then you'd have one stop shopping for each class and if you wanted to read an arcane scroll you'd use k(arcana).. Whatever works I guess
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I might let them use craft(alchemy) for other alchemists books but translating the cryptic writings of fraazled the mighty conjurer into an alchemical formula should require spellcraft.
*shrug* or not, considering reading clerical scrolls is also a spellcraft check.
My thought is all the spellcraft stuff should be rolled into k(arcana) and the clerical stuff into k(religion) and alchemical stuff into craft(alchemy) then you'd have one stop shopping for each class and if you wanted to read an arcane scroll you'd use k(arcana).. Whatever works I guess
I liked that idea back in beta, but it never seemed to take flight.
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But to directly answer your second question... No not really. Even potions can be made using craft alchemy. If you wanted to make more exotic things you would need spellcraft in that case but... thats all I can really think of.Errm? they can? How?
Under the crafting section it notes that you can use either spellcraft or the proper crafting ranks as long as they apply appropriately to the item being made and you have the requisite crafting feat (And meet other requirements etc).
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item.
Item Creation Feat Required: Brew Potion.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)
See emphasis mine bold.
The same applies with any other craft, such as craft armor, it lets you get extra mileage out of those crafting ranks which is actually kinda a great relief to me, I always felt they were left out in the cold.