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It appears to me that the summoner's spell list at the end of the class section in Chapter 2 is rife with errors. Somewhere between 3rd and 4th level, it seems that the caster got a nice bonus leap into spell access a level early. Spells include, but are not limited to: black tentacles, dimension door, enlarge person (mass), invisibility (greater), locate creature, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, magic fang (greater), minor creation, nondetection, reduce person (mass), stoneskin, summon monster IV, tongues, wall of fire, wall of ice, water breathing.
The reason I suspect that this is an error is because summon monster IV is available at 3rd level, whereas Summon Monster II is available at 2nd level.
Moreover, in comparing the beta Summoner's List, it seems that the intent was not to give a 3rd level summoner access to typically 4th level spells.
Paizo - please clarify.
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Moreover, in comparing the beta Summoner's List, it seems that the intent was not to give a 3rd level summoner access to typically 4th level spells.
Remember, though, that the summoner is only on a 6-level spell progression. So he gets those 3rd-level spells at 7th level, i.e. the same time a wizard of the same level would be getting his 4th-level spells.
That's the original spell list, the one from the first beta release. It was brought back to compensate for the loss of a lot of summoning potential.
It seems to me they could have just left the spell levels unchanged and made the summoner a full caster.
Not without significantly expanding the power of the class. Being a full caster would give the Summoner 3 new spell levels worth of spells known and spells per day, and increase the DCs of his offensive spells.
Over 50% of all 3rd-level summoner spells are 4th level spells for at least one of the full-casting classes.
Over 80% of all 4th-level summoner spells are 5th or 6th level spells for at least one of the full-casting classes.
Over 80% of all 5th-level summoner spells are 6th or 7th level spells for at least one of the full-casting classes.
Over 90% of all 6th-level summoner spells are 8th or 9th level spells for at least one of the full-casting classes.So almost all high-level summoner spells are bumped down in spell level to give the summoner access to those spells at the same time a full caster gains access to those spells.
It seems to me they could have just left the spell levels unchanged and made the summoner a full caster.
Except that by bringing the spell levels down, the DCs are reduced (both saves and other related checks), as are the attribute requirements. So there are other mechanics at play here.
Edit: Stop stalking me Zurai! :P
Except that by bringing the spell levels down, the DCs are reduced (both saves and other related checks), as are the attribute requirements. So there are other mechanics at play here.Yes, but the wand and potion mechanics are also in play. And bumping down spell levels has the potential to mess with those in unexpected ways.
Not in any way that isn't already messed up in the Core Rulebook. Bards get the same treatment, after all. So do Inquisitors. It's clear that they don't consider wands and potions of unusual spells to be a big deal.
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Yes, but the wand and potion mechanics are also in play. And bumping down spell levels has the potential to mess with those in unexpected ways.
Not in any way that isn't already messed up in the Core Rulebook. Bards get the same treatment, after all. So do Inquisitors. It's clear that they don't consider wands and potions of unusual spells to be a big deal.
Except in PF Society...
Yes, but the wand and potion mechanics are also in play. And bumping down spell levels has the potential to mess with those in unexpected ways.Not in any way that isn't already messed up in the Core Rulebook. Bards get the same treatment, after all. So do Inquisitors. It's clear that they don't consider wands and potions of unusual spells to be a big deal.Except in PF Society...
PF Society also prohibits Leadership and several other feats. PF Society is not the default game.
Well only if they didn't come up with a new progression for spells per day and spells known rather than just copying the sorcerer or the bard.
Yup, absolutely. Something like the sorcerer but with the spell slots/level maxing out at 3 instead of 6 (say) would probably have worked just fine.
That would leave them with even fewer spells than they currently have, and cripple their casting at low levels.
Personally, I see absolutely no problem with the way things currently work.
That would leave them with even fewer spells than they currently have, and cripple their casting at low levels.
If by "fewer spells", you mean "fewer spell slots", then no, it wouldn't. I'll let you do the math on that one.
That would leave them with even fewer spells than they currently have, and cripple their casting at low levels.If by "fewer spells", you mean "fewer spell slots", then no, it wouldn't. I'll let you do the math on that one.
They get 5 spells * 6 levels currently. That's 30 spell slots.
Your suggestion would give them 3 spells * 9 levels. That's 27 spell slots.
27 is less than 30.
That would leave them with even fewer spells than they currently have, and cripple their casting at low levels.If by "fewer spells", you mean "fewer spell slots", then no, it wouldn't. I'll let you do the math on that one.They get 5 spells * 6 levels currently. That's 30 spell slots.
Your suggestion would give them 3 spells * 9 levels. That's 27 spell slots.
27 is less than 30.
(Hint: bonus spell slots for a high attribute)
(Hint: bonus spell slots for a high attribute)That would leave them with even fewer spells than they currently have, and cripple their casting at low levels.If by "fewer spells", you mean "fewer spell slots", then no, it wouldn't. I'll let you do the math on that one.They get 5 spells * 6 levels currently. That's 30 spell slots.
Your suggestion would give them 3 spells * 9 levels. That's 27 spell slots.
27 is less than 30.
You have to go to 28 just to even things up. Not a terribly compelling argument given the Summoner list.