So inspired by the other Final Fantasy threads out there and the steampunk campaign I'm running now, 1 of my players is going to eventually start a Final Fantasy styled game (just kind of encompassing as many of the Final Fantasy's as we can). To make things easier (and not change a bunch) we're just going to stick to all the normal classes and also we're doing something similar with races. Humans of course are Humans, Elves will remain Elves, Half-Elves are going to be Humans with more magical prowess or races similar to Humans that are slightly changed (such as Zidane), Gnomes will be Moogles/Mogs, Halflings will be children (probably of any humanoid race), Dwarves will be Dwarves, and finally (to get to my point) we were thinking about modifying Half-Orcs into a Red XIII style race.
The big reason we were thinking of doing Half-Orcs this way and not just using a Worg is to get away from the +1 level adjustment type thing for a Worg. So far what we're thinking is the race has extremely limited weapon proficiencies (maybe some tail spikes, metal objects over claws/teeth, etc). We would get rid of Weapon Familiarity of course and replace it with a natural bite or possibly a natural claw that would deal 1d6+str modifier. Orc Blood would also go away. The thing I'm thinking about most right now is whether to give them Scent or a racial ability I made/stole from Nezumi a while back called Enhanced Scent which allows the race to take Scent as a feat. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks.
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Well, the scent/enhanced sent could take the place of Darkvision. So, that works. It would make sense to give them different Attribute bonuses, since they don't fall under the 'half-orcs are half humans' that gave them the +2 to any.
Not being able to use weapons is kind of a big thing, but making metal tools as you mentioned helps. At least it allows for enchantment.
Interesting idea.
Also, there are some 3PPs out there that might help.
And there is another that deals specifically with sentient animal races, but I cannot remember the name and search isn't helping.
Good luck, sounds like a fun job.
Well, the scent/enhanced sent could take the place of Darkvision. So, that works. It would make sense to give them different Attribute bonuses, since they don't fall under the 'half-orcs are half humans' that gave them the +2 to any.
Not being able to use weapons is kind of a big thing, but making metal tools as you mentioned helps. At least it allows for enchantment.
Interesting idea.
Also, there are some 3PPs out there that might help.
And there is another that deals specifically with sentient animal races, but I cannot remember the name and search isn't helping.
Good luck, sounds like a fun job.
Thanks, honestly the big reason I was thinking +2 to any ability score was to make them seem more intelligent, I suppose I could go with something like +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom and a -2 to Intelligence or Charisma. The metal tool things I kind of stole from the Urskan from Frostburn and it would definitely help with enchantment like you said (which was my main reasoning behind it). I kind of wanted the race to have Darkvision but I guess Darkvision + Scent may be a little much.
Actually here's a quick ruff draft I guess, I kind of gave up on using the Half-Orc and just built the race from scratch. I named them Honiahaka rather than calling them Dog People, the name is a Cheyenne (Native American) name that means little wolf.
(Hone-eye-ha-kuh)
Looks: Honiahaka are a race of quadrupeds that resemble red wolf-like creatures. Despite their looks, Honiahaka are exceptionally intelligent and can speak.
Society/Relations: Honiahaka are known to live in small tribes, some nomadic and others choosing to stay in one location. They are generally looked at strangely by most other races because they do not come in contact with Honiahaka often, Mogs generally being the most excepting of Honiahaka.
Alignment: Honiahaka tend to travel in packs and are thus loyal to their friends and families, but since they dwell in a world that is dominated by bipeds, they've come to grips with the fact that they are not generally excepted. Most Honiahaka are neutral as a result.
Example Male Names: Bugenhagen, Nanaki, Seto. Example Female Names: Asdza, Deneh, Kasa.
Type: Magical Beast
Size: Medium
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Honiahaka are nimble and wise but they are feared by most races and some have bad tempers as a result.
Quadruped: Being that Honiahaka walk on all four of their limbs, Honiahaka are considered non-proficient with all simple and martial weapons (except for a select few, see Weapon Familiarity) as well as shields, despite any class levels. In addition, a Honiahaka can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. A Honiahaka can carry 1-1/2 times the amount of a bipedal creature of the same size. Finally a Honiahaka gains a +4 on CMD against being tripped.
Beastial Nature: Honiahaka have close ties with nature and their beastial ancestors and can therefore take feats they qualify for from the Beasitary.
Fast Speed: Honiahaka have a base speed of 40 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Honiahaka can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Enhanced Scent: Honiahaka may use a feat to gain the Scent special ability.
Natural Attacks: Honiahaka are capable of making natural attacks with their sharp teeth and claws. A Honiahaka possesses a claw and a bite natural attack and both inflict 1d4 damage plus strength modifier on a successful hit.
Weapon Familiarity: Honiahaka are proficient with Steel Claws, Steel Jaws, and Tail Spikes.
Age: Adulthood 5 - Middle Age 15 - Old Age 23 - Venerable 30 - Max Age +1d10 (I'm not 100% sure about this because in the back of my mind I remember Red XIII being really old, so if someone knows please let me know)
Steel Claw/Jaw - light - 15gp - *special damage* - 19-20x2 - 1/2lbs - S (claw), all types (jaw). Steel Claws/Jaws are metal pieces that races with natural weapons have developed to protect their natural weapons and cause more damage with them. A Steel Claw/Jaw allows the wielder to deal damage with their natural weapon as if it were 1 size category larger. If a Steel Claw/Jaw is sundered the wearer takes damage equal to the amount dealt to the object being sundered.
Tail Spikes - light - 5gp - small 1d3 - medium 1d4 - x2 - 1lbs - P. Developed by the Honiahaka long ago, tail spikes are small metal spikes attached to a ring that goes around the tail of a Honiahaka, allowing it to swing its tail as a devastating weapon.
Red XIII's race could live for hundreds of years. Do they get 1 claw attack or 2? are there attacks primary or secondary? I'd make there bite deal 1d6 (as appropriate for a medium creature).
Red XIII's race could live for hundreds of years. Do they get 1 claw attack or 2? are there attacks primary or secondary? I'd make there bite deal 1d6 (as appropriate for a medium creature).
I was going for 1 claw and 1 bite, the bite being primary and the big reason I had their bite deal 1d4 was because I didn't want 1 natural attack being better than the other. Thanks for the info on the age thing, I didn't think about them living for a long time until after I did the age as something similar to a Nezumi. I'll probably go with something like a Gnomes (Adulthood 100 - Middle Age 150 - Old Age 200 - Venerable - Max Age +3d%) or possibly Adulthood 50 - Middle Age 100 - Old Age 200 - Venerable 300 - Max Age +2d%
Couple of things.
Bites are, in general, much more dangerous than claws. A puma that bites you is going to do more damage than if he claws you, unless he hits a major artery like your neck. The teeth penetrate deeper and are more likely to hit that artery or do damage to an organ. This is why, in general, bites do one die size bigger. If you look through the Bestiary, you won't see any creatures who do the same with bite and claw.
Primary/Secondary in PF is no longer a choice. It's based on the attack type itself. Both bite and claw are primary. Things like tail slaps and wing buffets are secondary.
Claws should always come in pairs for biped/quadruped animals. It makes no sense for a quadruped to have 1 claw attack (unless it's a maimed version of it's race).
So, I'd give them Bite (1d6) and claws (x2, 1d4).
My suggestion for a playable race would be :
+2 Dex
+2 Wis
-2 Cha
Natural Weapons : Gain Bite (1d6), and Claws (x2, 1d4).
Enhanced Senses : Scent and Low-Light vision
Skill Bonuses : +2 to Survival and Perception
Quadruped : This race is a quadruped, and has no manipulative digits. This means they cannot open most doors, jars, backpacks, use manufactured weapons unless they are specially manufactured for the species, cannot wear normal armor (although they can wear barding), cannot wear some equipment (such as rings or boots), and cannot take crafting skills.
That last one is a MAJOR issue, and if you don't think it balances out the other traits, you have never tried to play a character with no manipulative digits in a game. Honestly this race would be more appropriate as NPC cohorts than players, but it does fit the Red XII motif.
Dragons are Quadrupeds and according to the Draconomicon, they can wear rings and boots (with slight appearance modifications).
Dragons are Quadrupeds and according to the Draconomicon, they can wear rings and boots (with slight appearance modifications).
Dragon's also have manipulative digits (IE: fingers and such). Red XIII was a large hound, with no hands, so no rings. I suppose you could stuff boots on him, but that would interfere with his claws.
He wore rings on his tail, if I remember correctly. The race could wear two rings on their tail without breaking anything. Boots could be designed to leave his claws free, and if they were worn on his back feet, they wouldn't interfere with his claws anyways (claw attacks are hands/forepaws. Rake attacks are back paws).
Googled it so I could see a picture and the picture showed him wearing bracers / bracelets on the fore and back legs. So bracers would work and you could use the adjust the boots (of course it would cost more).
Or perhaps he could wear braces on both locations.
IMO, I wouldn't have it cost more, they already don't have hands, no sense unduly penalizing them.
*shrug* I'd have no issues with bracers, nor rings on his tail.
The important part of that restriction is still, no manipulative digits. That balances out the 3 natural attacks.
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The thing is....how do they put that equipment on without other races to help them out?
Kind of goes back to the old sphinx/lamassu issue. How DO they keep their hair looking so good? Telekinesis? Prestigiditation?
Cripes, I had forgotten about the pierced ears. How the hell?
Being dependent on others for gear and being unable to use conventional items is going to be an interesting hurdle.
Ya to simplify things we were just going to do boots as anklet type things or something that didn't cover their claws. Then armor wouldn't necessarily be normal armor but we were just going to make it cost the same and everything. Really the only reason I'm asking this is because I'd like to play this race :P I had almost completely forgotten about ability bonuses but Survival and Perception sound good, then I guess a 1d6 bite and 2-1d4 claws would be nice since they can't really use any other weapons (except the tail spike thing and steel versions of their natural weapons, which just allow them to enchant their natural weapons and deal slightly more damage).
This one guy talked about using a Hand of the Mage.
With three natural attacks, the Amulet of mighty fists would be a good buy (Cheaper than three items.)
Agreed, the no hands thing balances out the rest. And it makes it interesting. I'd assume any spell casters would use their tails for somatic components, and they'd all have to take eschew materials.
I'd say this race would likely never have wizards, only sorcrers, druids, and others who didn't need books.
As to how to put it on, summon monster works well (summon an ape to put it on). A summoner Red XIII could have an eidelon with hands to help. :)
A druid could take a monkey familiar as well. :)
As for favored classes for Red XII's...
Barbarian (Add +1/2 to Rounds of Rage)
Fighter (Add +1/2 to Fort Saves)
Druid (Add +1/2 to # of rounds canine summons last)
Sorcerer (Add +1/2 to # of uses per day of 1st level ability)
Ranger (Add +1 HP to Animal Companion if it's Canine)
Summoner (Add +1/4 Evolution Points to Eidelon)
Witch (Add +1 spell to spells known, max = max spell level minus 1)
Unseen servant and Open/Close would be must haves.
You know....playing this race as a Summoner with a human-looking Eidolon has potential.
Why a human? How about a halfling with violent blue hair and sharp pointy teeth. Then let the Eidelon ride you into battle with a lance. :) Really confuse people, so they think the Red XIII is the summon and the eidelon the summoner. :)
The thing is....how do they put that equipment on without other races to help them out?
Kind of goes back to the old sphinx/lamassu issue. How DO they keep their hair looking so good? Telekinesis? Prestigiditation?
Cripes, I had forgotten about the pierced ears. How the hell?
Being dependent on others for gear and being unable to use conventional items is going to be an interesting hurdle.
Prehensile tail :P I'm honestly thinking about playing him as a Summoner now with a Cait Sith Eidolon lol. I could just switch the -2 Charisma to a -2 Intelligence. On a more serious note though, I really want to play the race as an Inquisitor. Here's what I'm thinking now.
Type: Magical Beast
Size: Medium
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Honiahaka are nimble and wise but they are feared by most races and some have bad tempers as a result.
Quadruped: Being that Honiahaka walk on all four of their limbs, Honiahaka are considered non-proficient with all simple and martial weapons (except for a select few, see Weapon Familiarity) as well as shields, despite any class levels. In addition, a Honiahaka can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. A Honiahaka can carry 1-1/2 times the amount of a bipedal creature of the same size. Finally a Honiahaka gains a +4 on CMD against being tripped.
Beastial Nature: Honiahaka have close ties with nature and their beastial ancestors and can therefore take monster feats they qualify for.
Fast Speed: Honiahaka have a base speed of 40 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Honiahaka can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Scent: Honiahaka can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
Animal Senses: Honiahaka have a +2 racial bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
Natural Attacks: Honiahaka are capable of making natural attacks with their sharp teeth and claws. A Honiahaka possesses 2 claw natural attacks that inflict 1d4 damage plus strength modifier on a successful hit and a bite natural attack that inflicts 1d6 damage plus strength modifier on a successful hit. When used in a full attack action, the bite attack is considered a primary attack.
Weapon Familiarity: Honiahaka are proficient with Steel Claws, Steel Jaws, and Tail Spikes.
Age:Adulthood 50 - Middle Age 100 - Old Age 200 - Venerable 300 - Max Age +2d%
The thing is....how do they put that equipment on without other races to help them out?
Kind of goes back to the old sphinx/lamassu issue. How DO they keep their hair looking so good? Telekinesis? Prestigiditation?
Cripes, I had forgotten about the pierced ears. How the hell?
Being dependent on others for gear and being unable to use conventional items is going to be an interesting hurdle.
Prehensile tail :P I'm honestly thinking about playing him as a Summoner now with a Cait Sith Eidolon lol. I could just switch the -2 Charisma to a -2 Intelligence. On a more serious note though, I really want to play the race as an Inquisitor. Here's what I'm thinking now.
** spoiler omitted **...
Looks good.
Again, just to note. The bite and claws are all primary for Pathfinder. So if they make a full attack, they use their full BAB with bite and claws. If they make a weapon attack (withe their tail for example), then all the natural weapons are treated as secondary.
See page 302 of the bestiary, or go here to the here to look up the primary/secondary by attack type table.
Quadruped : This race is a quadruped, and has no manipulative digits. This means they cannot open most doors, jars, backpacks, use manufactured weapons unless they are specially manufactured for the species, cannot wear normal armor (although they can wear barding), cannot wear some equipment (such as rings or boots), and cannot take crafting skills.
You'd be surprised what a cat can do, with even the little intelligence it has.
I'd be hard pressed to force a player to not be able to open doors, when I've seen "Tiny" sized cats figure out how to turn doorhandles and open things.An intelligent cat-like race that never developed opposable thumbs, but had the same intelligence and size of a human, would easily understand and be capable of manipulating most objects, if only with more difficulty.
At worst, I'd apply maybe a penalty along these lines:
I'd then probably allow a feat to let them do non-fine manipulations are regular speed (denoting practice at doing things in a bipedal-centric world), with a bonus to interactions as well to make the feat mechanically worth it (offsetting their Charisma penalty a little).
Again, just to note. The bite and claws are all primary for Pathfinder. So if they make a full attack, they use their full BAB with bite and claws. If they make a weapon attack (withe their tail for example), then all the natural weapons are treated as secondary.See page 302 of the bestiary, or go here to the here to look up the primary/secondary by attack type table.
Ya I know I'm just trying to cut down on someone making 3 attacks at their full BAB.
You'd be surprised what a cat can do, with even the little intelligence it has.
I'd be hard pressed to force a player to not be able to open doors, when I've seen "Tiny" sized cats figure out how to turn doorhandles and open things.An intelligent cat-like race that never developed opposable thumbs, but had the same intelligence and size of a human, would easily understand and be capable of manipulating most objects, if only with more difficulty.
At worst, I'd apply maybe a penalty along these lines:
Can't hold items in hand, but can in mouth. Cannot wield items unless specifically designed for use in their mouth or claws. Takes twice as long to perform actions that require manipulation, and any action that would absolutely require an opposable thumb would require both front paws, or one paw and their mouth. Fine manipulation (such as crafting, disable device, or any object with parts smaller than their toes) is impossible without magical assistance. Can wear most magical item slots (although adorning them may take longer or require assistance depending on their manipulation), but they use non-humanoid costs (x2) for armor, body, chest and feet items, and may never use shields.
I'd then probably allow a feat to let them do non-fine manipulations are regular speed (denoting practice at doing things in a bipedal-centric world), with a bonus to interactions as well to make the feat mechanically worth it (offsetting their Charisma penalty a little).
I agree with this, I've seen both cats and dogs open doors. They've probably adapted enough to know how to open doors and containers. Plus I don't want to over complicate things by giving them a bunch of rules. Not to change up the subject and get yelled at by Final Fantasy addicts but I'm honestly thinking about giving them an opposable thumb on their front paws similar to the panserbjorne in the Golden Compass to simplify things even more and not have to worry about creating a bunch of rules for what they can and can't do.
Actually,
I own 3 cats, and I would not be at all surprised about what they can and can't do with paws. :) However, I think you are imagining Red XII in a modern setting. Modern doors are machine cut to fit correctly on metal hinges that are machine tooled to work with very tight tolerances. Modern doorknobs are also machine tooled to very fine tolerances and coated with a lubricant that lasts for years, to ensure they are extremely easy to turn and operate. Door latches are spring loaded to ensure that once you open the door, if you lose your grip on it, it still opens.
Now, compare that to midevil technology, where the latch was a pig-iron bit of metal that weighed a good 5 lbs, the door was usually not a great fit for the door jamb, and the pig-iron latch grated against itself and rusted quite easily.
Or the door just had a wooden toggle to lock it closed (which involved a wooden beam about 8 inches long on each side of the door that you turned horizontal to lock the door in place and vertical to allow it to open).
Note that the type being "magical beast" makes them immune to some things, and could be seen as a benefit.
While you lose access to some spells like Enlarge Person, you can change tactics to accommodate that.
Having to use Charm/Hold Monster instead of Person, that's a tangible benefit.
I don't see them working as humanoid in any way, though.. so magical beast works best. It's just something you don't want to overlook when balancing the race.
I think the stats you have there are pretty good.
Some things to consider:
There's no reason to make the race as restricted as was seen in Final Fantasy. The red fur could simply be something unique to Nanaki's family (or Tribe).
I'd even think that a racial trait that granted a +4 racial bonus to Stealth in a certain terrain chosen from a list, to differentiate different lineage/tribes could be a unique way to fill out the race.
Some other trait ideas (looking at the cats in the bestiary):
- A sprint ability (1/hr move at 10x speed on a charge).
- Reduce landspeed for some climb speed (30 base, 20 climb).
- Racial bonus to Acrobatics checks for jumping/balance.
- Replace low-light vision with darkvision (or simply add it, not sure how powerful traits can be with vision).
Some of these could make racial feats if the bonus is powerful enough.
Now, compare that to midevil technology, where the latch was a pig-iron bit of metal that weighed a good 5 lbs, the door was usually not a great fit for the door jamb, and the pig-iron latch grated against itself and rusted quite easily.
Or the door just had a wooden toggle to lock it closed (which involved a wooden beam about 8 inches long on each side of the door that you turned horizontal to lock the door in place and vertical to allow it to open).
Yeah, but we are talking about a medium sized, human smart lion-like creature. What's 5 pounds to this race?
They'd have both the strength and intelligence to figure out how to do it.And while they lack the digits for finer motor control, the proposed race has an above average dexterity and awareness.
If it require poking your finger through a smallish hole, or using a key, then yeah.. I can see what you mean.
Opening the typical door? I don't see the problem.
Though I did say it should take twice as long (two move actions to open a door, for example).
That, or maybe "increased to a full round action", since two standard actions might be odd to figure out.
Side note. When I first read about the Summoner during the Alpha test, my first thought for an Eidolon was to recreate Red XIII.
Side note. When I first read about the Summoner during the Alpha test, my first thought for an Eidolon was to recreate Red XIII.
Mine was to build Appa from Avatar (the last Airbender). Back to Red XIII though, we'll probably do what Kaisoku is talking about and have him take twice as long for things like disabling devices, and really hard motor skills that involve the use of a thumb (such as playing instruments) but for the most part we don't think we're going to have to deal with it a lot because I'm the only 1 that's going to play the race and I'm playing it as an Inquisitor so I'll be a secondary melee fighter/healer.
Just reading some more on RedXIII since this thread got me interested. Something interesting about his age...
Apparently the scene with Red XIII and his cubs were supposed to be 500 years after FFVI. Considering he was pretty big at 48, those cubs couldn't be that old.. meaning, he's probably not even into his elder years in that scene (unless they were grandchildren).
If 550 years is somewhere between Middle Aged and Old for this race (which it might not even be), they are far longer living than even Elves in D&D.
The other option of simply having them never die of old age (hitting venerable and then no maximum age). They are a magical beast after all. I mean... does a Unicorn have a maximum age?
It would also explain why there's so few... lots of time before dying of old age usually means less desire to push for advancement, which means less desire for larger societies. A "tribe" might be no more than a family line, while the entire race could be wiped out pretty quickly with all the other races breeding like rabbits around them.
Just reading some more on RedXIII since this thread got me interested. Something interesting about his age...
Apparently the scene with Red XIII and his cubs were supposed to be 500 years after FFVI. Considering he was pretty big at 48, those cubs couldn't be that old.. meaning, he's probably not even into his elder years in that scene (unless they were grandchildren).
If 550 years is somewhere between Middle Aged and Old for this race (which it might not even be), they are far longer living than even Elves in D&D.
The other option of simply having them never die of old age (hitting venerable and then no maximum age). They are a magical beast after all. I mean... does a Unicorn have a maximum age?It would also explain why there's so few... lots of time before dying of old age usually means less desire to push for advancement, which means less desire for larger societies. A "tribe" might be no more than a family line, while the entire race could be wiped out pretty quickly with all the other races breeding like rabbits around them.
I actually have a race in my homebrew that can't die from aging. I suppose I could do the Red XIII race as something like this: Adulthood 150 - Middle Age 500 - Old Age 750 - Venerable 1000 - Honiahaka cannot die from aging
A little late to the party and all, but also the Noble Wilds book, a really good add on for people who want something different but not exotic for a character, has rules for using animals as characters. Take a look at it.
If anything, it can be a frame to build on for what you are looking for.
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A little late to the party and all, but also the Noble Wilds book, a really good add on for people who want something different but not exotic for a character, has rules for using animals as characters. Take a look at it.
If anything, it can be a frame to build on for what you are looking for.
THAT'S the other book I was trying to remember.
Found Here.
I may have to get that when I get some more money. I do think that what I have will work for our little final fantasy setting though, like I said, I'm the only person that plans on playing 1 and I'm planning on playing an Inquisitor so I won't be dealing a whole lot with using thumbs and we just said that we'd kind of hand wave how spells work, it's probably a mix of their tail, paws, and possibly even their mouth.
I have a PDF that could help you out some Felgoroth, if ya can give me a place to send it, I'll be more then happy to send it your way.
They really need a natural spell effect for the race without digits or hands to manipulate things.