So, during the Favoured Class preview, we found out that there would be a new feat to learn more spells for a Sorcerer, more powerful than those in previous editions. We've got that feat now--it's called Expanded Arcana.
Essentially, Expanded Arcana gives you either one spell known of your current highest level or two spells known of any lower levels. Once selected, they can never be changed, so while it might be nice when you first get it, it doesn't scale up.
This causes a bit of a head-scratcher for me.
If you choose the Favoured Class benefit of hit points every single level, you will be duplicating the effect of the single feat Toughness.
As for the new Favoured Class benefit, let's consider a Sorcerer who was not a Human (so he couldnt just use the Favoured Class benefit) but was gung-ho about new spells so he took Expanded Arcana with every feat he could take (10 times). These ten feats would net him either one new spell known of each level 1 through 9 and an extra level 1 spell or else two new spells known of each level zero through eight and two additional extra level zero / one additional extra level one.
Compare to the Favoured Class benefit taken at all levels--here you get exactly what the above Sorcerer or Oracle got if they went for the larger number of lower spells, but you also get one more level 8 spell too. Level by level at almost every level you are really quite close to the guy who spent every last feat.
We have two Sorcerers, Featspender and Favclasser. Since I think the Favclasser is problematically powerful, I will make the assumption (strongly favouring the Featspender) that 2 spells known of level X are always worse than 1 spell known of level X+1 (Assumption A), while 3 spells known of level X vs 1 spell known of X+1 I will say is superior (if you think that 3 of level X are really actually worse than 1 of X+1, then shouldn't Expanded Arcana offer three of level X anyway instead of 2?) except for maybe cantrips which are debatable, thus making 2 spells of level X equivalent to 5 spells of level X+1 (Assumption B). I think that people who disagree with me will agree with Assumption A but maybe not Assumption B, so let me know if you do.
Level 1--Featspender gets two 0th or 1 1st, Favclasser gets one 0th,
0x2/1x1 vs 0x1 advantage Featspender--either one extra 0th or a 1st instead
Level 2--Favclasser gets a second 0th, but Featspender has the choice to have a level 1, so
0x2/1x1 vs 0x2, advantage Featspender--Assumption A gives him the edge
Level 3--Featspender gets two more 0th or one more 1st, Favclasser gets another 0th
0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2 vs 0x3, advantage Featspender--strictly more cantrips or Assumption A
Level 4--Favclasser gets a 1st, Featspender gets nothing
0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2 vs 0x3,1x1, Debatable--Assumption B
Level 5--Favclasser gets another 1st, Featspender gets 2 1st or a 2nd
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1) vs 0x3,1x2, advantage Featspender--Assumption A
Level 6--Favclasser gets a 2nd
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x1, advantage Favclasser--Favclasser has all the same 1st and 2nd, and all the cantrips in addition
Level 7--Featspender gets a 3rd or 2 2nd, Favclasser gets a 2nd
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2, advantage Featspender--Extrapolation from Assumption A that one 3rd level is worth more than 3 cantrips and a 2nd level
Level 8--Favclasser gets a 3rd
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x1, solid advantage Favclasser--Strictly better, he has everything Featspender has plus 3 cantrips and a level 2 spell
Level 9--Featspender gets a 4th or 2 3rd, Favclasser gets a 3rd
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x3/4x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2, advantage Featspender--Extrapolation from Assumption A
Level 10--Favclasser gets a 4th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x1--solid advantage Favclasser, if you've noticed the pattern, Favclasser's advantage is growing and growing at even levels and his disadvantage at odd levels is shrinking and shrinking but will never disappear. This will continue until level 19.
Level 11--Featspender gets a 5 or 2 4th, Favclasser gets a 4th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2,5x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2--advantage Featspender by extrapolation from Assumption A
Level 12--Favclasser gets a 5th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x1--big advantage Favclasser (as usual for evens, one more of everything except 1st, plus 3 cantrips)
Level 13--Featspender gets a 6 or 2 5th, Favclasser gets a 5th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2--advantage Featspender by extrapolation from Assumption A
Level 14--Favclasser gets a 6th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2,6x1--bigger advantage Favclasser
Level 15--Featspender gets a 7 or 2 6th, Favclasser gets a 6th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1)+(6x2/7x 1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2,6x2--advantage Featspender by extrapolation from Assumption A
Level 16--Favclasser gets a 7th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1)+(6x2/7x 1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2,6x2,7x1--even bigger advantage Favclasser
Level 17--Featspender gets an 8 or 2 7th, Favclasser gets a 7th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1)+(6x2/7x 1)+(7x2/8x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2,6x2,7x2--advantage Featspender by extrapolation from Assumption A
Level 18--Favclasser gets an 8th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1)+(6x2/7x 1)+(7x2/8x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2,6x2,7x2,8x1--biggest advantage ever for Favclasser
Level 19--Featspender gets a 9 or 2 8th, Favclasser gets an 8th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1)+(6x2/7x 1)+(7x2/8x1)+(8x2/9x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2,6x2,7x2,8x2--advantage Featspender by extrapolation from Assumption A
Level 20--Favclasser gets another 8th
(0x4/0x2,1x1/1x2)+(1x2/2x1)+(2x2/3x1)+(3x2/4x1)+(4x2/5x1)+(5x2/6x1)+(6x2/7x 1)+(7x2/8x1)+(8x2/9x1) vs 0x3,1x2,2x2,3x2,4x2,5x2,6x2,7x2,8x3--advantage Favclasser just barely by extrapolation from Assumption B, and even if you don't agree with Assumption B, we only disagree about level 20 anyways. Usually where Favclasser has a lead, she is actually strictly better.
Note that if Featspender uses even a single feat on anything else past level 3, Favclasser becomes better by Assumption B for the rest of the game.
So what does this mean? I find it a bit disconcerting that continual use of the hit point bonus of favoured class is equivalent to a single feat, while the extra spell benefit of favoured class is unquestionably superior to spending all your feats on extra spells at levels 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18 (and possibly at 20).
I'd like to do some analysis here with cool ideas on the matter, so I hope we can stay friendly and focused on brainstorming rather than blow up like the other thread. The APG is an awesome book with so many cool options--I just want to be careful and very scrupulous with each and every option because I'm in the interesting position of being a GM who is very lenient and likes many options with a few players who get very upset if new options have rules imbalance (which I know is the reverse of usual).
So, what do you think?
Any thoughts on the matter? I know fellow Paizo forumers usually have interesting things to say that make me think about things in different ways, but I'm very curious about this one.
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Um... I don't know all the details based on what you said but I did want to point out one thing about Extra Spell from Complete Arcane and that based off my reading of the feat it did have a benefit for even wizards where it would let them learn a spell they normally couldn't research... I.E. cleric spells and bard spells (a necromancer wizard would probably be okay with taking Harm and Mass Inflict Critical Wounds for all his undead minions or an enchanter taking Modify Memory (a bard only spell) because... well why not make the poor sap forget all the face of the person who did all those terrible things him). Once again I'm sure it wasn't really worth the feat (as least definitely not at lower levels) but it did have its uses.... perhaps you should check both feats and compare them between each other? Perhaps Expanded Arcana allows for the same thing? or perhaps it can be expanded upon to allow similar options as it currently does such as:
Expanded Arcana: When you take this feat choose one of the following option. This choice cannot be changed later. If you use a spell book, you need not scribe these spells into your spell book and instead treat the spells you obtained with this feat as though you had taken the spell mastery feat for these spells.
Option A: Choose one spell from your own class spell list and add it to your spells known. This spell can come from your highest level available spells.
Option B:Choose two spells from your own spell list and add them to your spells known. These spells must be one level lower then your highest available spells.
Option C:Choose one spell from any class spell list. This choice must come from wizard, cleric, druid, or witch if it is available on their list (this is to prevent getting summon monster IX as a 6th level spell from the summoner). If not available on there list then it must come from the source which gains it at a higher level. This spell must be one level lower then your highest available level of spells. When you cast this spell (for spontaneous casters) it uses a slot one level higher. If you prepare spells, it is memorized as spell level higher then what it normally is. Ultimately what spells can be taken and what levels they are cast at are at the discretion of the DM.
Option D: Mix Option B and Option C together to get two spells known that you would normally not be able to obtain two levels lower then your highest available that are cast at one level higher (i.e. if you can cast 7th level wizard spells, these two normally 5th level cleric spells are cast as 6th level spells).
Anyway... yeah.
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I've got to say, I love the APG, but was really disappointed in a very small number of things. The whole deal with sorcerers gaining extra spells is one of them.
I'd be a LOT more content with it if any races other than Humans had access to their FC Sorcerer bonus. But Gnomes and Halflings, who are natural choices, don't even have an alternate FC bonus for the class, let alone one as attractive as the Human bonus.
I had originally raised a question similar to yours when the Human Sorcerer FC bonus was previewed, claiming that it was extremely powerful when put side by side with Extra Spell, compared to a similar relationship like Toughness vs getting an extra hit point.
Although the Expanded Arcana is definitely better than Extra Spell, it still doesn't change the fact that Human Sorcerers basically get it for free every other level.
I was kind of expecting something more like this:
Expanded Arcana: You may add one spell to your list of spells known at each spell level below the highest level of spells you are capable of casting. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you may add another spell known to the level below that. For example, a level 7 sorcerer taking this feat gains an extra 0 level, 1st level, and 2nd level spell, and when he gains access to 4th level spells at level 8, he may add another 3rd level spell known.
This could probably be worded more eloquently, but hopefully you get the gist. It's a good feat, to be sure, but still only half as good as taking the extra spell known Human Sorcerer FC bonus.
I'm going to ask my GM what he thinks about either allowing the Human bonus for other racers that would make natural sorcerers, or changing the feat to make it more useful.
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I find myself of two minds on this issue. While on the one hand it does seem to be way overpowered that a human spellcaster can learn 20 more spells than his peers from other races, it doesn't necessarily increase their power level. Sure, a human alchemist will know 20 more extracts for free than a half-orc, but a half-orc will do 10 more damage per bomb and a gnome will be able to throw 10 more bombs a day. That human alchemist just has a much harder time deciding what to brew that day, really. As for the other spellcasters... No other favored class bonus can even come close. An additional use of your useless 1st level school/domain power for every 2 levels? Granted, there are a lot more useful ones around now, but still- It can't really be compared.
I have to say though, I do like the Gnome Oracle option. Get those curse bonuses much sooner!
I find myself of two minds on this issue. While on the one hand it does seem to be way overpowered that a human spellcaster can learn 20 more spells than his peers from other races, it doesn't necessarily increase their power level. Sure, a human alchemist will know 20 more extracts for free than a half-orc, but a half-orc will do 10 more damage per bomb and a gnome will be able to throw 10 more bombs a day. That human alchemist just has a much harder time deciding what to brew that day, really. As for the other spellcasters... No other favored class bonus can even come close. An additional use of your useless 1st level school/domain power for every 2 levels? Granted, there are a lot more useful ones around now, but still- It can't really be compared.
I have to say though, I do like the Gnome Oracle option. Get those curse bonuses much sooner!
Yeah, the Human bonus is terrible for Alchemists, actually, in many normal campaign situations since Alchemists can grab formulae from friendly Wizards or Alchemists or captured Wizard or Alchemist books, rather than having a limited supply, so it's mostly just giving you money and a bit of convenience. I'm surprised elves have none for Alchemist. But Alchemist aside, you're right that Sorcerer is the big one where the other choices are weaker.
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Just want to add another post to make it absolutely clear what my stance is.
I don't think the Human favored class bonus for sorcerers is overpowered, at all.
I DO think that the other races favored class bonuses are underpowered, and that Expanded Arcana is very weak as a feat. Not useless, but really lacking.
Clearly you guys have a very solid sense of what makes for good gaming. Much better than my own, and I don't pretend to know everything about balance.
So my question is, why is did you decide to give Human Sorcerers so many extra spells known so easily, but other races have to work so much harder at it?
Just want to add another post to make it absolutely clear what my stance is.
I don't think the Human favored class bonus for sorcerers is overpowered, at all.
I DO think that the other races favored class bonuses are underpowered, and that Expanded Arcana is very weak as a feat. Not useless, but really lacking.
Clearly you guys have a very solid sense of what makes for good gaming. Much better than my own, and I don't pretend to know everything about balance.
So my question is, why is did you decide to give Human Sorcerers so many extra spells known so easily, but other races have to work so much harder at it?
Personally, I'm more of the persuasion that the Favoured Class bonus is a bit too good (or at the very least, I would feel like I had taken a substantial hit to power if I ever played any other Sorcerer than a Human taking that bonus at most every level). However, I think we can all agree that the feat doesn't measure up vis-a-vis the Favoured Class bonus, and that's what I'm curious about.
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Personally, I'm more of the persuasion that the Favoured Class bonus is a bit too good (or at the very least, I would feel like I had taken a substantial hit to power if I ever played any other Sorcerer than a Human taking that bonus at most every level). However, I think we can all agree that the feat doesn't measure up vis-a-vis the Favoured Class bonus, and that's what I'm curious about.
Then I think we've got a bit of confusion here. I do think it's significantly better than other races' sorcerer favored class bonuses, but not overpowered (i.e. game breaking).
I think if the feat (or other FC bonuses) were brought up to par with the human FC bonus (or at least closer to the human bonus) it would be great.
I've initiated discussion with my GM, and basically asked if I could get one of the following:
1) Have him pick 1 or 2 other racers to get access to the Human FC bonus for Sorcerers
2) Pick a couple of races to get basically half of the human bonus, i.e. gain 1/2 a spell known every level, so long as it's below your highest level of spells castable
3) Upgrade Expanded Arcana (or add a new feat) as detailed in my previous post.
Whatever we end up working out, I'll be vocal on the forums about how well it works.
Personally, I'm more of the persuasion that the Favoured Class bonus is a bit too good (or at the very least, I would feel like I had taken a substantial hit to power if I ever played any other Sorcerer than a Human taking that bonus at most every level). However, I think we can all agree that the feat doesn't measure up vis-a-vis the Favoured Class bonus, and that's what I'm curious about.Then I think we've got a bit of confusion here. I do think it's significantly better than other races' sorcerer favored class bonuses, but not overpowered (i.e. game breaking).
I think if the feat (or other FC bonuses) were brought up to par with the human FC bonus (or at least closer to the human bonus) it would be great.
I've initiated discussion with my GM, and basically asked if I could get one of the following:
1) Have him pick 1 or 2 other racers to get access to the Human FC bonus for Sorcerers
2) Pick a couple of races to get basically half of the human bonus, i.e. gain 1/2 a spell known every level, so long as it's below your highest level of spells castable
3) Upgrade Expanded Arcana (or add a new feat) as detailed in my previous post.Whatever we end up working out, I'll be vocal on the forums about how well it works.
No worries, I wasn't confused--you did a good job of representing yourself. I was just saying that although I come in a bit on the other side if we were to bring back a debate that I don't care to resurrect, I think we can both agree that the balance between the feat and the favoured class bonus is off.
The best way that I can describe it is in terms of Treantmonk's Guides to Optimisation, where "blue" means must-have "green" means solid choice, "orange" means marginal choice, and "red" means nigh-worthless choice. Currently there are a lot of "green" and "blue" options for Sorcerers, which make them a fertile ground for players who like to both optimise and RP varying characters. After the Human Favoured Class Bonus, without something like your suggestions above, Human is just the "blue" option and everything else is "orange". Does that make it overpowered? Not necessarily, and your proposed fixes will help with that a lot!
It's great that you're going to playtest those options and let us know how it goes--cheers and good luck!
Huaman Oralces can get the extra spells as well? (Does a Happy Dance)
Look I agree that it doesn't make sense that gnomes get a sorc favored option (maybe a +1 to all sorc spell dc's) but the whole extra spells for humans *kinda* makes sense since humans are supposed to be the most flexable, fast learning race.
I LOVE the new option mostly because I love spont casters (I hate having to guess what i need to prepare) and a broader range of spells rocks. I doesn't close the gap of being a whole spell level behind so I'm happy!
Hey Ardenup--I love having lots of spells to choose one too. Heck, at this point in an APG game where anything goes, I would feel that I'm weakening myself severely to play anything but a Human Sorcerer. So rather than bring back the debate about whether we want Sorcerers to have this many spells known (which I know there are two heated sides of), Let's focus on the differences between the feat and the human benefit and the balance thereof, vis-a-vis other favoured class bonuses compared to feats like Improved Toughness.
That way, if we come to a conclusion, we can please everyone with variants that go both ways, if you see what I mean? For instance, w0nko has some neat ideas to strengthen the feat--we could make ways to both strengthen the feat and to weaken the favoured class bonus so that people could each choose to use whichever one they preferred in their campaign and everyone would be happy.
Does the expanded arcana feat actually allow you to take it multiple times? Also, what are its prerequisites if any?
Does the expanded arcana feat actually allow you to take it multiple times? Also, what are its prerequisites if any?
It can be taken as many times as you like, it requires caster level 1st, and it requires you to be a class that has a limited list of spells known, such as Sorcerer, Bard, or Oracle. My analysis above assumes a non-human caster took the feat at all opportunities.
The human sorcerer option to get 20 extra spells known is horribly overpowered. I've liked just about everything I've read about the APG, but this one literally made my jaw drop.
The main balancing factor for sorcerers is their spell selection. But when you can increase your spell selection by THAT much, it's simply not an issue anymore. For the human sorcerer, spells are no longer a precious, precious commodity. Your human sorcerer can now get pretty much every really good spell, and then some. One skill point or hit point is nowhere near as valuable to a sorcerer as knowing an additional spell!
Worse, this makes humans a "no brainer" for anyone wanting to play a sorcerer. Nothing that gnomes, half-elves, or anyone else gets even begins to compare to knowing TWENTY additional spells. The human sorcerer option is so good, you'd be drastically weakening yourself if you pick any other race. Humans should not be an order of magnitude better than other races.
This is just a terrible, terrible rule and I hope it gets errata'd out of existence very soon.
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Not only sorcerer gets this bonus, but also Oracle, bard, inquisitor.... they can get it with the other spellcasting classes as well, but it's not nearly as good for the prepared casters. I wish they would have made it 1/2 of an extra spell known, like they did with so many other things. At standard, a sorcerer learns something like 40-50 spells throughout their career, and then another 20 if they're human, for about a 40% increase in spells known.
On a only slightly related note, half-orcs got a lot cooler with the release of the APG. I think Half-Orc inquisitors are officially the most intimidating thing out there (+1 per level for rank, +1/2 per level for Stern Gaze, +1/2 per level for favored class bonus, +2 racial bonus...)
On a only slightly related note, half-orcs got a lot cooler with the release of the APG. I think Half-Orc inquisitors are officially the most intimidating thing out there (+1 per level for rank, +1/2 per level for Stern Gaze, +1/2 per level for favored class bonus, +2 racial bonus...)
*jaw drops and clatters on the floor*
+20 ranks
+10 Stern Gaze
+10 favored class bonus
+10 from 30 Charisma
+10 from Intimidating Prowess (and 30 Strength)
+06 skill focus
+04 persuasive
+02 racial bonus
=
+72 TOTAL INTIMIDATE MODIFIER in 20 levels!
What are the bonus types involved? Maybe some of them won't stack.
On a only slightly related note, half-orcs got a lot cooler with the release of the APG. I think Half-Orc inquisitors are officially the most intimidating thing out there (+1 per level for rank, +1/2 per level for Stern Gaze, +1/2 per level for favored class bonus, +2 racial bonus...)*jaw drops and clatters on the floor*
+20 ranks
+10 Stern Gaze
+10 favored class bonus
+10 from 30 Charisma
+10 from Intimidating Prowess (and 30 Strength)
+06 skill focus
+04 persuasive
+02 racial bonus=
+72 TOTAL INTIMIDATE MODIFIER in 20 levels!
What are the bonus types involved? Maybe some of them won't stack.
+75; you forgot the class skill bonus :p
+75; you forgot the class skill bonus :pOn a only slightly related note, half-orcs got a lot cooler with the release of the APG. I think Half-Orc inquisitors are officially the most intimidating thing out there (+1 per level for rank, +1/2 per level for Stern Gaze, +1/2 per level for favored class bonus, +2 racial bonus...)*jaw drops and clatters on the floor*
+20 ranks
+10 Stern Gaze
+10 favored class bonus
+10 from 30 Charisma
+10 from Intimidating Prowess (and 30 Strength)
+06 skill focus
+04 persuasive
+02 racial bonus=
+72 TOTAL INTIMIDATE MODIFIER in 20 levels!
What are the bonus types involved? Maybe some of them won't stack.
*facepalm*
Veiled vileness for another bonus and a trait too. Possibly that item of persuasion that gives a bonus on all charisma based checks.
Veiled vileness for another bonus and a trait too. Possibly that item of persuasion that gives a bonus on all charisma based checks.
"A god? What god? All I see is a coward running away!"
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Worse, this makes humans a "no brainer" for anyone wanting to play a sorcerer. Nothing that gnomes, half-elves, or anyone else gets even begins to compare to knowing TWENTY additional spells. The human sorcerer option is so good, you'd be drastically weakening yourself if you pick any other race. Humans should not be an order of magnitude better than other races.
Or, you could choose your race and class based on your character concept and roleplaying idea, instead of trying to min/max the entire thing :P
But hey, just my 2cp :P
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It's nice, I have a sorcerer in a home game and an Oracle for Pathfinder Society, but I don't think it's overpowered.
Paizo has beefed up wizards to the point where sorcerers have little or no advantage in spells per day and they still have a crappy skill list and get spells at a slower rate. Of course, this change only helps humans, but it's better than nothing.
Hey everybody--I'm glad to see some discussion on this thread, and the half-orc inquisitor thing is scary in an awesome way.
However, (and I know I don't have any right as the original poster to require it, but I do request it if you would) let's not get into an argument here about whether the Human Favoured Class Bonus is "overpowered" or not for Sorcerers in general to have vis-a-vis.
The important thing for me is comparing Humans who have this option to non-humans who use Expanded Arcana (currently the only other way to get more spells known). Whether you think the Sorcerer needs a boost with respect to Wizards, I think we can all agree that it would be good to think about the balance between Expanded Arcana and the Human Sorcerer Favoured Class Bonus, so non-humans can share the love.
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Hey everybody--I'm glad to see some discussion on this thread, and the half-orc inquisitor thing is scary in an awesome way.
However, (and I know I don't have any right as the original poster to require it, but I do request it if you would) let's not get into an argument here about whether the Human Favoured Class Bonus is "overpowered" or not for Sorcerers in general to have vis-a-vis.
The important thing for me is comparing Humans who have this option to non-humans who use Expanded Arcana (currently the only other way to get more spells known). Whether you think the Sorcerer needs a boost with respect to Wizards, I think we can all agree that it would be good to think about the balance between Expanded Arcana and the Human Sorcerer Favoured Class Bonus, so non-humans can share the love.
Agreed. After speaking with my GM, he ruled that Gnomes can take the Human FC Sorcerer benefit as if they had it. I think he'll make a couple of other similar adjustments based on which races seem natural at which classes.
So far, being only level 3, it hasn't made much of a difference in the campaign, but I'll be interested to see how this current sorcerer compares to ones I've seen played in the past.
In my own upcoming home game, I intend to leave the FC bonuses as they are, but add the feat I described upthread for spontaneous spellcasters.
Hey everybody--I'm glad to see some discussion on this thread, and the half-orc inquisitor thing is scary in an awesome way.
However, (and I know I don't have any right as the original poster to require it, but I do request it if you would) let's not get into an argument here about whether the Human Favoured Class Bonus is "overpowered" or not for Sorcerers in general to have vis-a-vis.
The important thing for me is comparing Humans who have this option to non-humans who use Expanded Arcana (currently the only other way to get more spells known). Whether you think the Sorcerer needs a boost with respect to Wizards, I think we can all agree that it would be good to think about the balance between Expanded Arcana and the Human Sorcerer Favoured Class Bonus, so non-humans can share the love.
Agreed. After speaking with my GM, he ruled that Gnomes can take the Human FC Sorcerer benefit as if they had it. I think he'll make a couple of other similar adjustments based on which races seem natural at which classes.
So far, being only level 3, it hasn't made much of a difference in the campaign, but I'll be interested to see how this current sorcerer compares to ones I've seen played in the past.
In my own upcoming home game, I intend to leave the FC bonuses as they are, but add the feat I described upthread for spontaneous spellcasters.
Yeah, we have a Gnome Fey Sorcerer in the Council of Thieves game in which I'm playing--Gnomes do seem a strong choice for Sorcerers and a surprising one not to receive a bonus already. I guess, though, I'd feel bad if races like Humans and Gnomes (who already have statistical advantages to make them better Sorcerers) got the Favoured Class bonus on top of that, if you see what I mean? That's why I'm thinking something like what you're testing with modifying the feat would sit better with me than what your GM is trying out, since the latter would extremely discourage Sorcerers of other races.
Another thought I had the other day was this:
Expanded Arcana-
Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, or instead add two spells at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast. Whenever you gain a level, you may switch your Expanded Arcana spell for any spell you can cast (and if you chose two spells, they must both still always be of at least one level lower than your highest level).
Special: Though you can take this feat multiple times, you can never have more than two spells of any given spell level added to your list from Expanded Arcana.
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So how does this work? Well, if you take the feat once, you will have a floating spell known that can constantly be at your highest level of spell known. Given that the Favoured Class bonus for hit points is equivalent to Toughness, this benefit, though much more powerful than the current Expanded Arcana, is still a lot weaker than the Favoured Class bonus, so I think it's okay. However, this new version of Expanded Arcana needed my added restriction in the Special section or else it could easily get out of hand (spending all your feats is a much larger investment than spending your Favoured Class benefits on something, but having ten extra 9th-level spells known is just crazy however you slice it).
I don't think that this is enough to make a level field, but I think it's a step closer--any thoughts?