I am excited to see Pathfinder create more of these primordial dragons, however, they aren't exactly like the ones from WotC's Linnorms, but close enough.
The differences are that it seems Pathfinder Linnorms, so far, lack spellcasting (but so did 2 of WotC's, getting to that in a bit). They also seem to have a Death Curse and Freedom of Movement.
Now I am aware that the Sea Linnorm and Stygian Linnorm (both produced by Paizo in Dragon and Dungeon Magazine) lacked spellcasting ability also (the Gray, Dread, Corpse Tearer, and Swamp had them). I guess there're "Greater" and "Lesser" versions of Linnorms?
My question is, will we see spellcasting-type linnorms?
My other question is, taking the Gray, Dread, Corpse Tearer, Sea, Swamp, and Stygian Linnorms from WotC and giving them Freedom of Movement is simple, to be more in line with Pathfinder's version. But what are some suggestions for good Death Curses?
The easiest thing would be for me to probably scratch the Freedom of Movement and Death Curse off the Pathfinder Linnorms and take off 1 from their CR. But I like the flavor of those abilities.
Creative Director
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While linnorms are mythological creatures, and thus in the public domain, the specific rules incarnation of them produced by WotC for the Monster Manual 2 and then in the magazines by Paizo are all owned by WotC. They're not open content, so we can't remake or use those linnorms at all.
So we had to make up new linnorms. The end result, as you've seen, is pretty similar, but that's only because the designers of the WotC versions and we built the monsters from the same real-world myths about linnorms. There's a few stories about linnorms cursing folks in those legends, so we decided to go with the death curse as one of several ways to tie them together, thematically.
We also chose to NOT give them spellcasting or spell-like abilities because linnorms are in many ways supposed to be "primeval" dragons. By not giving them spells, we make them different than true dragons, which is helpful to differentiate them from the true dragons, and it also helps to make them seem "less civilized." We WILL be eventually statting up more linnorms, but they won't be getting spellcasting type powers either.
I'd love to see some folks come up with cool death curses for the WotC linnorms, but that's not something we at Paizo have the luxury of producing since those aren't open content.
Ah I see, I guess I'll have to give some of them spellcasting ability. I want to base the Ice Linnorm, for example, on the Frost Linnorm of 2E so I will probably look into some methods of applying that then.
What would spellcasting ability grant to CR? I'm guessing +2 if I keep it in line with their CR.
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Creative Director
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Ah I see, I guess I'll have to give some of them spellcasting ability. I want to base the Ice Linnorm, for example, on the Frost Linnorm of 2E so I will probably look into some methods of applying that then.
What would spellcasting ability grant to CR? I'm guessing +2 if I keep it in line with their CR.
Spellcasting ability would actually probably not change their CR much at all, unless you gave them so much spellcasting power that they transformed from big brutal dragons into something more like wizards.
What adding spellcasting would really do would make them more complex to run in combat, and would give them a LOT more options on how to interact with the world. But in a fight, combat with any monster tends to last only for 5 or so rounds on average. Linnorms already have plenty of tricks and moves to keep them busy for those 5 rounds, so there's a chance that even if you DO add some sort of spellcasting ability, they'll not really get to use it in a fight.
Now, if you give them significant spells, or spells that they can cast BEFORE combat to bulk themselves up (such as mage armor or the stat boosting spells or shield or the like), you probably would want to increase their CR by +1. Likewise, if you give them a HUGE number of spells, therby making them more versatile and thus more likely to be able to adapt to more efficiently target a party's weaknesses and avoid their strengths, you should probably increase the CR by +1 as well.
But +2 is probably too much, especially since that would suddenly make all the things that make them linnorms (damage, attacks, AC, and hp) suddenly be too low.
Raise dead on the thread, less than a year and my CL is high enough.
While reading "Curse of the Riven Sky", I wondered if Monte Cook got it wrong with his flying Linnorm encounter.
Then I checked the Bestiary and yes, Linnorms have a fly speed... problem is they have no wings and no access to the fly spell.
Checking that good old MM2 I realised that yes, the Pathfinder RPG Linnorms do not have spellcasting abilities. In MM2 they had fly at will, thus bypassing the lack of a pair of wings.
Therefore, I too would call for giving them a couple of spells, at least a list that makes their ability to fly more logical.
Laurent,
Some curses that would be cool for linnorms would be an aging curse, vulnerability to electricity, feeblemind like effect, baleful polymorph, insanity, blindess, enfeeblement, etc.
Also like to see some more linnorms with 2 or more heads.
I'd like to give the PF Linnorms innate spellcasting so they can be more in line with the WotC linnorms.
In combat, most people's games may have them last for 5 rounds. My combats, however, always last for 7-10, even more against many enemies or one really powerful one.
Still, I don't believe innate spellcasting should rely on a one-encounter event. Maybe I want to know the extent of power the linnorms have behind the scenes? Or make them truly fearful with the added magic for enemies to battle. Dragons have high spellcasting ability, that doesn't make them too complex for people to run (I also always wondered why you guys took away some dragon's ability to choose Cleric spells for their spells known?)