Hey all,
Another question about stacking Unarmed Strikes:
Fist of the Forest is a PrC which level 1 gives 1d8 unarmed strike damage, with the following "if your unarmed strike already deals this damage, you gain the next damage listed in the monk's progression" or something like that.
What happens if I build a Monk 8/Fist of the Forest 1? Does he get 1d10 as per Monk 8, or 2d6 as the next damage listed?
If that is the wording then you would gain nothing.
So, if I understand your post perfectly, here are the possibilities:
Some class N*/Fist of the Forest 1: 1d8
Some class N*/Monk 1: 1d6
Some class N*/Monk 1/Fist of the Forest 1: 1d8
Some class N*/Monk 4: 1d8
Some class N*/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 1: 1d10
Some class N*/Monk 11: 1d10
Some class N*/Monk 11/Fist of the Forest 1: 1d10
(*) I don't remember the other prerequisites for FotF
It seems to imply that this class, despite offering such a big power-up for one level (going from 1d3 to 1d8), doesn't provide much in that regard whether you have 4 or 11 levels of Monk. I find that strange.
Another interpretation is the following:
Some class N*/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 1 gives 1d10. Several thousand experience points later, the character has gained 4 levels in Monk. Looking over the Monk's unarmed damage progression starting at 1d10, said damage should now be around 2d6, no?
In fact, looking up the monk's unarmed damage progression, it looks like Fist of the Forest gives 4 monk levels in unarmed damage progression at first level (1d8 is a Monk 4 ability), 6 at level 2, and 8 at level 3 (1d10).
To integrate this class in an automated character sheet, I wanted to translate the ability into these numbers of monk levels towards unarmed damage progression.
It might seem overpowered, but Fist of the Forest has a serious drawback, "Primal Living", which forces them to live as animals (no sleeping indoors, no buying food).
What do you guys think?
For clarification it says: At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage
with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated
on the monk class table.
As a Monk 8 you deal 1d10. As a FotF 1 you deal 1d8. As you already deal this amount of damage (I infer it means at least this amount of damage) you deal 2d6.
At Monk 8/FotF 3 your damage increases to 1d10. As you already deal this amount of damage it becomes 2d8.
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For clarification it says: At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage
with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated
on the monk class table.As a Monk 8 you deal 1d10. As a FotF 1 you deal 1d8. As you already deal this amount of damage (I infer it means at least this amount of damage) you deal 2d6.
At Monk 8/FotF 3 your damage increases to 1d10. As you already deal this amount of damage it becomes 2d8.
+1
So, following the last posts, it's roughly equivalent to the +4 monk levels I suggested earlier, up to Monk 16/Fist of the Forest 1 (equivalent damage as a monk level 20).
Has anyone tried a build maximizing monk damage by using this class (among other things)?
For instance:
- Monk 1 or any class raising monk damage (with or without the Ascetic X feats)
- Fist of the Forest 1: +4
- Carmending Monk feat: +2
- Superior Unarmed Strike feat: +4
- Monk's Robe magic item (13k): +5
- Monk's Tattoo magic item (80k): +4
With size increases:
- Enlarge: +1
- Changeling/Warshaper 1: +1 (is this legit?)
- Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 4: +1; 8: +2
- other spells and magic items (no psionics)?
So... Changeling Monk 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Warshaper 1/IoDM 8, Enlarged, would be able to do 18d6 O.O
Is this even possible?
EDIT: now that we have a couple free levels, let's use Rogue... for Sneak Attack damage ;-)
Or that Dungeon Crasher ACF from Dungeonscape, giving an additional 8d6 when slamming foes against walls
And also a couple levels for that monk PrC from ToB (Shadow Sun Ninja, IIRC) for that damage-related healing
k, here we go.
Human Monk 5/ Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Swift Scion 1/ ??? 3
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon):+2 increments (8 lvls)
Swift Scion PrC 1 (UA): +1 increment (4 lvls)
Fist of the Forest 3 (CChampion): +2 increments (8 lvls)
Carmendine Monk (CoV): monk level +2
Superior Unarmed Strike feat (ToB): monk level +4
Monk, Robes (PFCore): monk level +5
Gauntlet of the Talon (20,000gp / CDivine – must worship Bahamut): monk level +5
Bones of Li-Peng, +1 nunchuku (2,302gp / Weapons of Legacy - 13th lvl): monk level +5
Total unarmed damage = monk lvl 46 at 17th lvl. OMG!?!
i couldn't findwas Monk's Tattoo , Louis - that would raise it to monk lvl 50.
Don't think Warshaper would work, that's natural weapons - not unarmed strikes.
Enlarge Person (permanent) would mean we use the large monk table.
50th lvl large monk = 10d8??? is this right?
plus AC will be orsm too - Con mod + Dex mod + Wis mod to AC!!
Monk's Tattooes are "magic items" from Magic of Faerun, IIRC. Expensive, and have to be made by a monk 10, so you might not want it, actually. I also don't know if they stack.
Size increment don't translate into monk levels for unarmed damage, they are to be applied afterwards. And monk levels don't go beyond 20, for 2d10. By the by, size increments aren't "bonus", and aren't typed, so they do stack.
Following the Equipment section, size increments apply as follows:
1d6 gives 1d8
1d8 gives 2d6
2d6 gives 3d6
3d6 gives 3d8
2d8 gives 3d8
So, we are looking at:
+0: 2d10 -- no size increment, effective monk level 20
+1: 4d8 -- Large or equivalent
+2: 6d8 (2x2d8->2x3d8) or 8d6 (4x1d8->4x2d6), depending on which line you are looking from the equipment section -- Huge or equivalent
+3: 9d8 (3x2d8->3x3d8) or 12d6 (4x2d6->4x3d6) -- Gargantuan or equivalent
+4: 18d6 (9x1d8->9x2d6 or 6x2d6->6x3d6) -- Colossal or equivalent
+5: 18d8 (18x1d6->18x1d8) or 27d6 (9x2d6->9x3d6) -- Colossal+, if your GM agrees
+6: 27d8 (9x2d8->9x3d8 or 9x3d6->9x3d8) -- Colossal++, if your GM agrees
I haven't seen anything on internet going beyond Colossal++ damage.
Quick reference of ways to get size increases (from the top of my head, might not include things from all supplements):
- Enlarge (obvious, gives Reach as well): +1
- Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8: +2
- Warshaper 1: +1 as a move action (you are right about the "natural attacks" part, but you might want the Swift Claw ACF from Mongoose's Quintessential Druid - can be found online)
- Fanged Ring (magic item from Draconomicon): +1 (but it considers its advantages as INA, which monk can't get - dixit the higher-ups)
- Large or larger alternate form (might not be compatible with Enlarge): +1 or +2
On the last point, I wonder if the rules allow a character in alternate shape to make Unarmed Strikes... unless you can get Swift Claw, in which case your unarmed damage and natural damage stack.
Edit: AC from 3 sources is good, too. Let's remember that some shapes increase Con as well ;-)
Monk's Tattooes are "magic items" from Magic of Faerun, IIRC. Expensive, and have to be made by a monk 10, so you might not want it, actually. I also don't know if they stack.
Size increment don't translate into monk levels for unarmed damage, they are to be applied afterwards. And monk levels don't go beyond 20, for 2d10. By the by, size increments aren't "bonus", and aren't typed, so they do stack.
Following the Equipment section, size increments apply as follows:
1d6 gives 1d8
1d8 gives 2d6
2d6 gives 3d6
3d6 gives 3d8
2d8 gives 3d8So, we are looking at:
+0: 2d10 -- no size increment, effective monk level 20
+1: 4d8 -- Large or equivalent
Are you saying we should use the size increase for weapons as monk's unarmed strike progression? That doesn't sound right, and doesn't correlate with the monk table.
+2: 6d8 (2x2d8->2x3d8) or 8d6 (4x1d8->4x2d6), depending on which line you are looking from the equipment section -- Huge or equivalent
+3: 9d8 (3x2d8->3x3d8) or 12d6 (4x2d6->4x3d6) -- Gargantuan or equivalent
+4: 18d6 (9x1d8->9x2d6 or 6x2d6->6x3d6) -- Colossal or equivalent
+5: 18d8 (18x1d6->18x1d8) or 27d6 (9x2d6->9x3d6) -- Colossal+, if your GM agrees
+6: 27d8 (9x2d8->9x3d8 or 9x3d6->9x3d8) -- Colossal++, if your GM agreesI haven't seen anything on internet going beyond Colossal++ damage.
Colossal's as big as you get.
Quick reference of ways to get size increases (from the top of my head, might not include things from all supplements):
- Enlarge (obvious, gives Reach as well): +1
- Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8: +2
- Warshaper 1: +1 as a move action (you are right about the "natural attacks" part, but you might want the Swift Claw ACF from Mongoose's Quintessential Druid - can be found online)
- Fanged Ring (magic item from Draconomicon): +1 (but it considers its advantages as INA, which monk can't get - dixit the higher-ups)
- Large or larger alternate form (might not be compatible with Enlarge): +1 or +2On the last point, I wonder if the rules allow a character in alternate shape to make Unarmed Strikes... unless you can get Swift Claw, in which case your unarmed damage and natural damage stack.
Edit: AC from 3 sources is good, too. Let's remember that...
Warshaper/ Fanged Ring/ Polx won't work unless you use that outside material (which i can't), or your DM rules that INA works with unarmed strikes - which i don't agree with anyways.
We can get AC from 4 sources (Int) if we can find a way to incorporate Invisible Blade or maybe Duelist into it.
Are you saying we should use the size increase for weapons as monk's unarmed strike progression? That doesn't sound right, and doesn't correlate with the monk table.
No. As a monk, there are two ways of improving your damage:
1) monk's unarmed damage progression : class levels in monk or other compatible classes; Superior Unarmed Strike feat; Carmendine Monk feat; Monk's Robe.2) size increase: Enlarge spell; Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, level 4 and 8; Warshaper
I know there are discrepancies between the two. Some things raise one, others the other.
Colossal's as big as you get.
I can understand that, but is there a ruling on this?
Warshaper/ Fanged Ring/ Polx won't work unless you use that outside material (which i can't), or your DM rules that INA works with unarmed strikes - which i don't agree with anyways.
I already wrote a lengthy post explaining my views on why the difference between unarmed strikes and natural attacks is confusing. But I agree with you on the fact that RAW doesn't support these.
...what did you mean by "Polx"?
We can get AC from 4 sources (Int) if we can find a way to incorporate Invisible Blade or maybe Duelist into it.
Getting a high AC wasn't the focus of this build, it was a (pleasant) side effect of selecting Monk and Fist of the Forest. At one time, I also thought that Swordsage (Tome of Battle) also added Wisdom to AC, but it seems it only applies in light armor (no more, no less).
Colossal's as big as you get.I can understand that, but is there a ruling on this?Table 8-4, p. 195. Unless you're a Deity.
...what did you mean by "Polx"?m'bad, a throwback to 2nd ed. Polymorph.
We can get AC from 4 sources (Int) if we can find a way to incorporate Invisible Blade or maybe Duelist into it.Getting a high AC wasn't the focus of this build, it was a (pleasant) side effect of selecting Monk and Fist of the Forest. At one time, I also thought that Swordsage (Tome of Battle) also added Wisdom to AC, but it seems it only applies in light armor (no more, no less).
By RAW, yeh, but surely, no armour would count as well.
So, in the end, we got to what, 50th lvl monk unarmed strike damage. not a bad exercise ;)
So, in the end, we got to what, 50th lvl monk unarmed strike damage. not a bad exercise ;)
You're right, it's purely a mental exercise for the moment.
I don't understand the "50th level" part. Base monk unarmed damage progression don't go over monk level 20. As you said, size increases have nothing to do with monk damage progression, they are added afterwards. The most we can get is a character striking with the proficiency of a monk level 20, and whose fists act as though the character was colossal. Yeah, not a bad exercise, considering that he gets several attacks per round. The only problem, now, is actually hitting the foes.
Has anyone played Pathfinder with the multiclass-friendly"fractional BAB" unofficial rule?
I re-read the Initiate yesterday, and the wording wasn't what I thought it was. I have been grossly mislead by the many char-op threads around, which state that (1) warshapers can increase unarmed strike damage, whereas it is written as "create or improve natural weapon", more or less; and (2) initiates of the draconic mysteries increase damage as though gaining a size, whereas it is clearly written as a "dice increase" (which makes 1d8 go to 1d10, not 2d6 - although it doesn't say anything after 1d12... 1d20? nor does it say anything about stacking with existing or future monk progression); and also (3) the Powerful Build ability (Goliath race, or Jotunbrud feat) doesn't increase unarmed damage.
So! If I envision a proper version of these abilities, here's the damage sheet:
Monk 1 + Fist of the Forest 1 + Superior Unarmed Strike feat + Carmendine Monk feat + Monk's Tattoo + Monk's Robe = 20 monk levels = 2d10
Initiate 8 (two dice increase): 2d10 -> 2d12 -> 2d20?
Well, color me surprised: this is even more open to abuse. Although RAW don't include d20s into the Larger/Smaller weapon table. If 1d20=2d10, here's the size progression:
Medium: 2d20, or 4d10
Large: 8d8 (2d10->4d8)
Huge: 12d8 (2d8->3d8)
Gargantuan: 18d8
Colossal: 27d8
Er... nice?