I would like to invite everybody to review my proposed alternate monk, detailed on tenletter, http://tenletter.wordpress.com/2010/05/28/alternate-monk-class-abilities-pa thfinder/. (Constructive) criticism and encouragement are very highly appreciated.
To summarize, instead of monk armor bonus, flurry of blows and stunning fist the variant monk has a choice of 4 defensive forms, 4 offensive forms and 4 strike techniques; and may chose any combination at level 1. The original forms (monk armor, flurry of blows and stunning fist) are naturally part of the set of choices, so it is readily possible to make the normal core monk.
The various forms have different strengths and drawbacks, but are intended to be both balanced and open up the monk to any number of character concepts that the original does not cater for. Finally, the various forms allow for a range of different attribute builds or help with reducing multiple attribute dependency.
thank you kindly for your attention
I think that the butterfly defensive form is too strong.
It's giving you essentially what, a +12 dodge bonus to AC at lvl 20. Plus only gives you a -3 penalty to the other stats for this.
I mean I know you don't get the +5 to AC or CMD, but a +12 still is a bit too much it seems to me.
I could be wrong, it could be balanced, for the fact that there is a -3 penalty. Thus giving more points outweighed from CMD and such. However, I don't see 1-3 points of CMD being worth 1 point of AC.
That's just me though.
But anyway.
Rest of the balance work on butterfly seems good. I'd say you need more opinions for butterfly though, just in case.
Steel Soul Monk, I'd say the Ki Cost should be 2, though I could be wrong.
Open Hand ki-pool seems too low for me as well. It's all because of the magical abilities you grant. That's why I say the kipool is too low. As you start offering things that are just damned powerful for a single ki-point in my opinion.
Hammer Fist -> Allowing the monk to charge continuously against targets in a single round doesn't seem balanced to me. I mean.... oi. Could be, but I don't think it is.Isn't charge normally a full round action.. I know he's doing it fast, but geez.
It's giving you essentially what, a +12 dodge bonus to AC at lvl 20. Plus only gives you a -3 penalty to the other stats for this.
I mean I know you don't get the +5 to AC or CMD, but a +12 still is a bit too much it seems to me.
I could be wrong, it could be balanced, for the fact that there is a -3 penalty. Thus giving more points outweighed from CMD and such. However, I don't see 1-3 points of CMD being worth 1 point of AC.
I think you don't understand how the normal monk AC works, and how it compares to what the variant does. Normal core monk AC is exactly the same as the Form of Irori. Nothing changed there. By level 20, you can expect the monk to have around 22 Wisdom. This means the normal monk will have an expected +6 (Wisdom) + 5(monk level) = +11 AC bonus (give or take a +2 or so, depending on the build you use). This total applies to both AC and CMD.
Form of the Butterfly linearizes that away. Wisdom doesn't grant bonus AC, the only bonus comes from monk levels and works out to grant a +12 bonus to AC (and CMD) at level 20. In that regard the two forms are very similar to each other. The butterfly's main advantage is that it reduces multiple attribute dependency for the character.
Hammer Fist -> Allowing the monk to charge continuously against targets in a single round doesn't seem balanced to me. I mean.... oi. Could be, but I don't think it is.Isn't charge normally a full round action.. I know he's doing it fast, but geez.
I think you're confused about this too. The hammer fist is a bullrush attempt on a melee attack. Not a charge. A bull rush can normally be made as part of a charge or as a standard action. Things like "Knockback" (barbarian rage power) can modify this behavior. The Hammer fist allows the monk to do multiple bullrush attempts in one turn, for a total of monk-level times a day. The primary purpose is to be able to push away multiple opponents in one round.
Steel Soul Monk, I'd say the Ki Cost should be 2, though I could be wrong.
Open Hand ki-pool seems too low for me as well. It's all because of the magical abilities you grant. That's why I say the kipool is too low. As you start offering things that are just damned powerful for a single ki-point in my opinion.
I think I disagree. Of the styles, the Open Hand will generally have the lowest damage-per-round; it's ki point ability is supposed to help out a bit in this regard.
The Soul of Steel's ki point certainly doesn't compare with the normal (flurry of blows) ki point either. Essentially the normal monk's ki point to gain a bonus attack is like having haste cast on you for a round. And it stacks with actual haste. For pure damage the additional attack is the strongest 1-point ki point use - and that comes straight out of core.
I'm pretty certain of the numbers and statistics on the abilities - and they all are in the same ball-park. But I made sure that there isn't an obvious power-creep in the new options. It is, of course, possible that I overlooked something, but I've run some mathcraft on the abilities and feel pretty confident about them. Don't let that stop you from presenting some stats of your own though :)
These are pretty nice, I'm with Eyolf on the Butterfly stance though, it seems better than Wisdom, Constitution, or Intelligence to AC, maybe have 1 for Charisma? It could be like a capoerista style monk (there was actually a Monk/Bard type class in 1 of the Dragon Magazines called a Battle Dancer that added Charisma to AC and had a few abilities that let it buff the party rather than flurry of blows)
Using different attributes to AC is pretty straight forward. I was hoping for different kinds of defense, like DR equal to Con bonus at 1st level, +1 per 4 levels; 10% miss chance at 1st level, increased by 10% every 5 levels (to a max of 50% at 20th level), maybe a kind of retributive ki shield that causes Wisdom bonus damage + monk level to any opponent that strikes with a non-reach weapon, etc. etc.
For the attacks, I was hoping for a skirmish-like ability that does additional damage if the monk makes only a single attack in a round, etc. etc.
Thanks for your inputs :)
These are pretty nice, I'm with Eyolf on the Butterfly stance though, it seems better than Wisdom, Constitution, or Intelligence to AC, maybe have 1 for Charisma? It could be like a capoerista style monk (there was actually a Monk/Bard type class in 1 of the Dragon Magazines called a Battle Dancer that added Charisma to AC and had a few abilities that let it buff the party rather than flurry of blows)
In what way is it better than the other forms? Personally I think Wisdom and Constitution are the strongest forms. The wisdom form, only requires the monk to have 24 Wisdom to have the same AC bonus as butterfly at level 20. 24 Wisdom is readily achievable (14 base, +2 racial, +2 from level 4 and 8, +6 headband of Wisdom) - and comes without penalties to Fortitude and Will saves. A monk that starts with 16 base, +2 racial, +4 from leveling, +6 from item, +2 from tomes = Wisdom 30. Which corresponds to +15 AC. And that is not as extreme as it can go.
The strength of the butterfly form is the attribute independence that it grants. It's weakness is that since the character would typically have low Wisdom, the monk suffers from lowish will saves, small ki pool, low strike DCs (for things like stunning fist and scorpion style).
For capoera style monks the butterfly form is optimal - it allows them to focus on stats that they care about (strength and dexterity, some constitution); other aspects of capoera are embodied by skills such as acrobatics and perform.
I don't think capoera grants any form of defensive bonus due to sheer presence and force of personality - so I don't think Charisma to AC is appropriate for the style.
Using different attributes to AC is pretty straight forward. I was hoping for different kinds of defense, like DR equal to Con bonus at 1st level, +1 per 4 levels; 10% miss chance at 1st level, increased by 10% every 5 levels (to a max of 50% at 20th level), maybe a kind of retributive ki shield that causes Wisdom bonus damage + monk level to any opponent that strikes with a non-reach weapon, etc. etc.
I don't think it is a good idea to grant too exotic forms of defense. The Mountain style grants DR, and I consider that so strong that the style gets significant speed restrictions.
Using a pure DR or miss-chance based defensive form is incredibly difficult to balance - and any new spell, feat, class, race that is published would have to be back-balanced to the defensive form. It is easy to come up with exotic defensive techniques - but the reason that these don't exist already in core (and largely in any expanded rules all the way back to 3.5 splash books) is because it cannot be reconciled with the CRs of encounters that will be faced.
For the attacks, I was hoping for a skirmish-like ability that does additional damage if the monk makes only a single attack in a round, etc. etc.
Did you have a look at the hand of perfection? You lose iterative attacks, but gain monk-level in bonus damage. Perfect for a skirmish style fighter that makes use of spring attack.
In what way is it better than the other forms? Personally I think Wisdom and Constitution are the strongest forms. The wisdom form, only requires the monk to have 24 Wisdom to have the same AC bonus as butterfly at level 20. 24 Wisdom is readily achievable (14 base, +2 racial, +2 from level 4 and 8, +6 headband of Wisdom) - and comes without penalties to Fortitude and Will saves. A monk that starts with 16 base, +2 racial, +4 from leveling, +6 from item, +2 from tomes = Wisdom 30. Which corresponds to +15 AC. And that is not as extreme as it can go
You ninja'd me earlier with your post but I kind of realized it wasn't that much more powerful after your 1st response :P
I don't think capoera grants any form of defensive bonus due to sheer presence and force of personality - so I don't think Charisma to AC is appropriate for the style.
I actually kind of think it does but only while their dancing around not all the time :P I agree butterfly stance with a lot of ranks in acrobatics and perform (dance) would probably be the best for a capoerista though, although I've played a standard Monk as a capoerista before.
I actually kind of think it does but only while their dancing around not all the time :P
lol - I'd rather imagine Charisma being used in other ways for a capoerista. More like my suggestion for Presence Training on a fighter. AC is generally the last bit I'd consider. Capoera is not really the most defensive of styles. (Though it is showy, granted that.)
Ya I think if I did a "battle dancer" type class they'd get dazzling display for free and they'd eventually be able to use it as a swift action or something. Their pretty quick and agile but I think they prepare more to be able to take a hit rather than dodge (especially with all the handstands and such)
I did not see Wisdom added from Irori.
Tis why.
I did not see Wisdom added from Irori.
Tis why.
Ah, yes, I can see how it would seem unbalanced then.