Here's My thoughts on this if you are even still looking at this post.
First off the idea of forming fiefs within your land is a good idea for exactly the same reasons it was done in the real world. It makes it easier for you, the king, to administer growing territories. I think that the control DC should still be based on the kingdom as a whole unless you are planning on running each of the smaller fiefs as separate nations, (ie. separate kingdom sheets). In that case then perhaps that is a good idea to alter control DCs. But it has been my experience that once the kingdom gets going that they will have little difficulty in making those rolls. In my Kingdom only a one fails on any given check, even with a -20 penalty applied.
On the issue of taxes; in the real world feudal system it was standard that a vassal state (Barony, County, Duchy, etc...) paid one fifth to the liege lord (20% taxes). This took several forms. It wasn't all paid as wagon loads of gold coin shipped to the capitol every month. Rather it took the form of services, raw and worked goods, food and livestock, and troops. In peacetime they were to maintain a militia and in times of war they were often called upon to send even more troops to support the war effort and often their own services.
As far as trade between fiefs that would almost certainly have to be decided by the individual rules of said fiefs, but, I suspect that their will form a standard economy in your campaign if you decide to go that route. The concept of KISS should be observed here unless you really like getting into realistic simulations of macro and micro economics. I enjoy a good deal of detail myself but that threatens to cross into the realm of tedium. I would avoid overly complicated systems and try to come up with a workable structure kind of like what you suggested.
The idea that the Liege send BPs to help out the vassals makes perfect sense as well. It was in fact the duty of the Liege to support the vassals as much as it was their duty to support their Liege.
I realize this is long after you posted it. I just found it minutes ago myself, buried as it was, in the Kingmaker forums. I hope this is still of some use to you and good luck with your Kingmaker campaign.
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I'm really looking forward to using the Kingmaker rules for building kingdoms. I've been thinking about how to extend them to support dominions within a kingdom--let's say the king makes a PC a baron and gives them several hexes as a barony to rule. How should that work out?
Here's my current background thoughts. (1) For realism/to produce nice medieval feeling kingdoms, it should be advantageous to create dominions within a kingdom (or to expand by granting a noble the right to settle a march on the borders); (2) At the same time, not every dominion within a kingdom should need to be self-sufficient--some dominions can be built around farmland, supporting other dominions need for food through trade in exchange for worked goods, etc.; (3) nobles should be able to hold council posts in the kingdom; and (4) it should be possible to pass Build Points up and down from the kingdom level to individual dominions and vice versa, but possibly inefficient to do so.
My current thinking is that the rules can mostly be used as-is. Hexes that are part of a subdominion don't count as part of the larger dominion for purposes of determining Command DCs, so it makes it easier to administer a large kingdom to break off chunks as baronies or counties or whatever. They do count for contiguity requirements. (I'm not sure if they should count for purposes of the increased benefits of being a duke/duchess or king/queen--I'm inclined to think not, but I would be happy to hear other people's thoughts.)
Typically, the feudal grant of land would require a payment of BP from the servient dominion to the larger dominion. So a King might give a countess a county on the condition that she give him 10% of the BP that her dominion generates, or a fixed number, or whatever else he wants to insist on. I assume that there would be no enforced mechanism to transfer those BPs, however; if the countess decides not to pay her feudal duties, the King would have to take action to compel the payment, or let them slide. (Perhaps there...
I really like the flavor of feudalism, but couldn't come up with the game mechanics to work it in with Kingmaker. Just starting second book.
It depends upon how detailed you want to get. Following KISS as much as possible:
1.) Vassal states within the claimed and controlled territory are not seperated from the main body of the kingdom. It is noted that Lord (Baron) So-and-So has a fief centered around So-and-Soville for a one or two hex radius and the kingdom operates as normal. The customary tribute and scutage are subsumed within the regular operation of the kingdom.
2.) Vassal states that are spun off from the main kingdom, such as colonial-era style colonies, states won as part of a war that are not directly connected to the main geography of the kingdom or the like have to be independantly govorned kingdoms that pay tribute and scutage (20% of BP income during the economy phase paid as monthly tribute plus a certain expectation of military units or a reasonable equivalent payment in BP as scutage) to their liege. A reasonable scutage example is 16 BP per month per 40 hexes or fraction of the vassal state. Such distant vassal states have to be able to trace a "line of communication" by river or road to their liege kingdom. If such a link is severed for a month or more, the vassal state becomes an independant state.
3.) Establishing frontier vassals can be done in a similar manner to how Kingmaker starts out. A landless Lord is sworn in and sent off with his retinue to explore, pacify and claim a specified border region with expectations of direct support by the liege (starting BP plus any further BP that is contributed to the vassal. In return, after, say 5 years or so, the liege has an expectation to receive tribute and either men-at-arms or scutage when the liege undertakes campaigns against his enemies. Of particular note is that the four "teams" sent out were intended to explore, pacify, claim and develop an area of about 70 hexes in area. Enough to warrant an expectation of 2 "units" of scutage from each potential Duchy, but not quite enough for any one of them to attain true Kingdom status. As we know, the best laid plans of monsters and men see that a bona-fide single kingdom of not-inconsiderable size sprouts along Restov's southern flanks...
Hope this helps!
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It depends upon how detailed you want to get. Following KISS as much as possible:
1.) Vassal states within the claimed and controlled territory are not seperated from the main body of the kingdom. It is noted that Lord (Baron) So-and-So has a fief centered around So-and-Soville for a one or two hex radius and the kingdom operates as normal. The customary tribute and scutage are subsumed within the regular operation of the kingdom.
2.) Vassal states that are spun off from the main kingdom, such as colonial-era style colonies, states won as part of a war that are not directly connected to the main geography of the kingdom or the like have to be independantly govorned kingdoms that pay tribute and scutage (20% of BP income during the economy phase paid as monthly tribute plus a certain expectation of military units or a reasonable equivalent payment in BP as scutage) to their liege. A reasonable scutage example is 16 BP per month per 40 hexes or fraction of the vassal state. Such distant vassal states have to be able to trace a "line of communication" by river or road to their liege kingdom. If such a link is severed for a month or more, the vassal state becomes an independant state.
3.) Establishing frontier vassals can be done in a similar manner to how Kingmaker starts out. A landless Lord is sworn in and sent off with his retinue to explore, pacify and claim a specified border region with expectations of direct support by the liege (starting BP plus any further BP that is contributed to the vassal. In return, after, say 5 years or so, the liege has an expectation to receive tribute and either men-at-arms or scutage when the liege undertakes campaigns against his enemies. Of particular note is that the four "teams" sent out were intended to explore, pacify, claim and develop an area of about 70 hexes in area. Enough to warrant an expectation of 2 "units" of scutage from each potential Duchy, but not quite enough for any one of them to attain true Kingdom status. As we know, the best laid plans of...
I believe it does. My peeps may not be down with this, but I believe they will be as all of them plan on taking the leadership feat.
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Kingmaker is the one AP that Leadership could almost be considered a "must have". Cohorts and the top-level followers round out the ruling council nicely plus the added benefit of providing a Medium - Huge army (low CR, but it's already there) and plenty of higher-level types to fill the Officer Corps of the kingdom.
A point of drama that I plan to use is going to be Restov's desire to collect tribute and scutage from my players' kingdom in the near future. Is it fair? No, probably not. Desperate times and desperate measures = unreasonable expectations.
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Kingmaker is the one AP that Leadership could almost be considered a "must have". Cohorts and the top-level followers round out the ruling council nicely plus the added benefit of providing a Medium - Huge army (low CR, but it's already there) and plenty of higher-level types to fill the Officer Corps of the kingdom.
A point of drama that I plan to use is going to be Restov's desire to collect tribute and scutage from my players' kingdom in the near future. Is it fair? No, probably not. Desperate times and desperate measures = unreasonable expectations.
Sweet! Keep us posted. You know it does seem reasonable that they get something for their investment. They've sunk hundreds of thousand of gold pieces into them{BPs,gold for all of the quest awards etc.} I would seriously lean on them if I were Restov. Ofecourse, if theyjust invade Brevoy -- oh well. All's fair in love and war -- right?
Sweet! Keep us posted. You know it does seem reasonable that they get something for their investment. They've sunk hundreds of thousand of gold pieces into them{BPs,gold for all of the quest awards etc.} I would seriously lean on them if I were Restov. Ofecourse, if theyjust invade Brevoy -- oh well. All's fair in love and war -- right?Kingmaker is the one AP that Leadership could almost be considered a "must have". Cohorts and the top-level followers round out the ruling council nicely plus the added benefit of providing a Medium - Huge army (low CR, but it's already there) and plenty of higher-level types to fill the Officer Corps of the kingdom.
A point of drama that I plan to use is going to be Restov's desire to collect tribute and scutage from my players' kingdom in the near future. Is it fair? No, probably not. Desperate times and desperate measures = unreasonable expectations.
Especially when there's a love of war in the air. :}
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While my group is still going through "Stolen Lands", we've been looking at the kingdom building rules in prep for "Rivers". Most of us are history as well as fantasy geeks, so we've been thinking about how to make feudilism work, as well.
My intitial thoughts were this: Any granted fief runs on its own kingdom sheet, with its own leadership. The scores for the kingdom overall are a weighted average of all of the fiefs. Any lands administered directly by the crown are considered a fief as well, for these purposes. After the averages are generated, the leadership bonuses/ penalties for the kingdom level officers are applied. (So, if there are crown-held lands, the bonus is really factored in twice.)
I haven't though of how to handle events, yet - I would probably reduce the frequency for each fief, or possible increase the number/ probability for the kingdom overall and assign them to fiefs randomly.
We have a lot of time until we are ready to start a holding, and even more, I'm sure, before we get into subdividing it. I'm anxious to hear any feedback, or any other ideas.
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We have a lot of time until we are ready to start a holding, and even more, I'm sure, before we get into subdividing it. I'm anxious to hear any feedback, or any other ideas.
As long as these rules don't get in the way of me generating pants-$&%@*ing terror for our party, I'm all for it! :)
Serious note: I would say the perhaps the each fief have but one event per year, allowing the crown to control the remainder of the events. As a kingdom grows and grants more fiefs, the power base distribution is thus accounted for, assuming that you are performing one event/month. This also keeps in line with Turin's advice, which I think is very pertinent:
It depends upon how detailed you want to get. Following KISS as much as possible:
Keep
ItSimple,
Stupid!
Sweet! Keep us posted. You know it does seem reasonable that they get something for their investment. They've sunk hundreds of thousand of gold pieces into them{BPs,gold for all of the quest awards etc.} I would seriously lean on them if I were Restov. Ofecourse, if theyjust invade Brevoy -- oh well. All's fair in love and war -- right?Kingmaker is the one AP that Leadership could almost be considered a "must have". Cohorts and the top-level followers round out the ruling council nicely plus the added benefit of providing a Medium - Huge army (low CR, but it's already there) and plenty of higher-level types to fill the Officer Corps of the kingdom.
A point of drama that I plan to use is going to be Restov's desire to collect tribute and scutage from my players' kingdom in the near future. Is it fair? No, probably not. Desperate times and desperate measures = unreasonable expectations.
Restov attempted to 'lean' on Starfall and Cordelon for tribute and scutage. Unfortunately for Restov's Grand Diplomat "Assistant Bob" (yes, from Demolition Man) he was disintegrated during the beat-down laid by the Pactmasters of Katapesh in their two-for-one assassination attempt on the King of Cordelon and Starfall's Councilor.
Her Majesty totally made the "counter Diplomacy" check to place the blame upon the Swordlords for "setting them up to be assassinated". It was awesome. :)