Some of us think hit points are too abstract, resulting in a lack of realism that we enjoy (I'm not saying D&D is or should be realistic, just that there is a line where we feel it's too unrealistic).
The problems I have with hit points can be summarized as follows:
- Everyone is at full fighting strength until they reach 0 hit points.
- Hit points lack the ability to sufficiently represent non-combat damage, such as from falling.
- Healing is just weird with how hit points work.
I just got an idea of how to (quite) simply lessen these issues. It's influenced by vitality points, and by the alexandrian rules on death and dying (easy to google). Mostly, the change is about semantics, but it opens up the door to change things into more realism without too much added bookkeeping.
Split hit points into two stats: Hit points and stamina points.
Hit points represent the physical health - damge to your hit points represent actual, physical damage that might kill you.
stamina points represent your will and ability to continue to fight. It represents your exhaustion level, and your ability to parry and dodge. Damage to stamina is either through becoming tired of dodging and parrying, or so light hits that it won't do any real damage (at the very most become a bruise).
At first level, you have 1 + Con + BAB hit points, and your maximum hit dice in stamina points.
At subsequent levels, you gain a hit point when your BAB increases, and your normal hit dice + con in stamina points.
Example: a 1st level fighter with con 14 has 4 hit points and 10 stamina points (comp. 12 hit points normally). At level 3, he'll have 6 hit points and average 25 stamina points (comp. 27 hit points normally). At 10th level, he'll have 13 hit points and 77 stamina points, supposing no Con increases (comp. 79 hit points normally)
Effects that deal damage deal damage to stamina points first, and when they're out, it deals hit point damage. However, when a character has taken hit point damage, he's taken real, substantial damage and is considered disabled (a condition too rarely used).
Hit points heal at the same rate and by the same effects as ability damage, and isn't healed by normal means. Stamina points heals at a rate of 1 point per hour of activity, or level+con points per hour of rest. Effects that normally cure hit points now only heal stamina points. The cure-line of spells is changed into "Reduce x tiredness" or whatever name would fit in english.
Effects on gameplay: The game gets a little less lethal, but more damaging. Since hit point damage severely hurts the action economy, and is healed slowly, taking it should be seriously avoided. However, if they do, they aren't dying - it's a good warning signal that it's time to retreat when you get wounded.
What do you think? I haven't tested it yet, but it feels that this change is intuitious, and that the extra paperwork is quite light compared to the gains that are to be had from it.
|
I like the idea of the condition track that was put forward in Saga Edition. If you took a big enough hit or were subjected to some detrimental effect you were given tier'd penalties based on how often it happened in combat. So if you took a really big hit you'd be at -1 to attack, skill checks, and defenses (saves/AC combo in D&D), but if you took anoth hit as big you'd go to -2, -5, then -10, and finally unconsciousness. You'd have to go back up the track to be fully healed again.
The benefit of this system is that it also makes book keeping simple since its penalties are tiered.
|
|
When you divide HP up like that, yes, but if you base it off of a specific number (in SAGA it is called a damage threshold = your Fort Defense which is 10 + level + con modifier) this isn't an issue.
A DC of 10 + Fort mod would be slightly less than what SAGA had, but it would be more on par with damage in D&D which is slightly less than SAGA. Damage in SAGA let you add half your level to all weapon damage rolls.
How about giving everyone either max or average hit points, and whenever you lose a hit die worth of hit points, you get a negative level until you regain your hit points?
My group uses different dice based off of current hp. the only time we use a d20 is for Init. everything else you would normaly use a d20 for is split into 5 tiers full hp use 2d10,80% use d10 d8,60% use 2d8, 40% use d8 d6, 20% use 2d6.
Using this system throws off crits though so they are done if you roll an 18-20, 16-20 with improved crit feat. we also do not confirm crits. we haven't decided what to do with the crit feat tree yet, and its realy just the first feat that gets in the way.
Our houserule is simpler:
So far, the PC "death spiral" effect that people fear so much has been fairly muted. What we have seen is a stronger desire to hit very quickly with big area effects, to reduce the enemy's combat effectiveness, and then to gang up on less injured people. PCs actually retreat occasionally as well.
In other words, the PCs' tactics have to change to fit the new "reality" of combat fatigue setting in. If they just keep slogging away like before, they're at a comparative disadvantage, so this option works only with comparatively experienced players.
|
|
Our houserule is simpler:
Less than 1/2 max hp -> fatigued -> -1 to all rolls in play (for the sake of simplicity).
Less than 1/4 max hp -> exhausted -> -3 to all rolls in play (for the sake of simplicity). So far, the PC "death spiral" effect that people fear so much has been fairly muted. What we have seen is a stronger desire to hit very quickly with big area effects, to reduce the enemy's combat effectiveness, and then to gang up on less injured people. PCs actually retreat occasionally as well.
In other words, the PCs' tactics have to change to fit the new "reality" of combat fatigue setting in. If they just keep slogging away like before, they're at a comparative disadvantage, so this option works only with comparatively experienced players.
I found the same thing in SAGA effectively. It pays to not get hit at all under that system as opposed to just trucking along despite how injured you are.
Good arguments are made for weapons dealing HP and SDC, people start shopping for what deals the most HP, and the situation mostly means things get deadlier quicker, or things are the same as they always were, but now more complicated.
Well, in this case the idea is that all effects (or nearly all, one might do a few high-level effects that are exceptions) take stamina first and hit points last.
Now if complex is your thing (and I LOVE Palladium games), then go for it. Otherwise it's just another stat to keep track of.
Well, to me, and I think to most RPG players in Sweden, this isn't very complicated. Most RPG's published in sweden are far more advanced and complex, a bit too complex for my taste. One of the largest, Eon, has four different parallel "hit points" meters; one each for exhaustion, trauma, blood loss and shock, and casting a spell generally requires at least 4 different dice rolls. That's why I prefer to play D&D - it's easier to take a simple system and make it a little more realistic, than it is to take a very complex system and make it easier.
If you wanted to represent much of the same (and seriously reduce lethality in the game), you could instead convert most healing and damage to non-lethal:
Yes, I've thought about that, but I actually think that requires more thinking as you have to use dividing in the middle of combat. This generally only requires more math at normal when leveling up, and a little substraction exactly when you reach 0 sp and have leftover damage.
Plus for the most part most groups seem to be killing BBEG, this system might leave more BBEGs alive and then what will the PCs do with them???
If they want to kill him, kill him. Just because he's wounded before he's dying doesn't mean they can't fix that "problem" ;)
----------
There are some other, less obvious benefits with this system though, that I got thinking of yesterday:
- Damage-dealing spells become a little bit more useful, as you'll have a lower point at which enemies are wounded (much like the 50% system Kirth uses)
- Subdual damage becomes easier to handle, actually. Since basically all damage to SP are subdual in nature, you only have to care for the subdual/lethal difference when the opponent is almost beaten.
- This takes away a bit of the problem with the barbarian, since once he's wounded, he knows he doesn't have so much potential left but can still rage. The chance of him dying from loss of rage is less.
- The need for a cleric isn't as large, as long as you keep from overreaching your stamina. It's easier to rest between battles without all spellcasters regaining spells.
Some of us think hit points are too abstract, resulting in a lack of realism that we enjoy (I'm not saying D&D is or should be realistic, just that there is a line where we feel it's too unrealistic). (snip)
We've been playing with rules similar to yours and Unearthed Arcana's Vitality/Wounds points for quite some time with great success and fun.
'findel
Some of us think hit points are too abstract, resulting in a lack of realism that we enjoy (I'm not saying D&D is or should be realistic, just that there is a line where we feel it's too unrealistic). (snip)We've been playing with rules similar to yours and Unearthed Arcana's Vitality/Wounds points for quite some time with great success and fun.
'findel
We're soon starting up a new game, fresh from first level. Two of the players are fairly new to the game (one is a first-time PnP player), but I think we can give it a shot anyway. They're all clever people, and at least the veteran really liked the idea.
So soon we'll have some experience of it too.
Though I changed the formula for hit points and stamina points. Hit points are equal to level + bab + con, plus a special size mod, while stamina points are gained as hit points are gained normally, but with all hit dice downsized one dice.
|
We've been playing with rules similar to yours and Unearthed Arcana's Vitality/Wounds points for quite some time with great success and fun.
Monte's book of Experimental Might proposes a similar mechanic, with Health and Grace points, and the Grace points coming back faster, with a mechanic similar to healing surges, and the 'bloodied' condition applying when you've taken Health damage (which means you've blown through your Grace, or been targetted by one of those rare attacks that does damage straight to Health, like some undead or high level necromancy effects, IIRC).
My tweak on it would probably be to make the math easier and just give everyone Health equal to their Con score, and then Vitality/Grace equal to their class / race-based HD, with max Vitality for PCs at level 1, and then average (round up) for every other level. Once someone is out of Vitality / Grace and starts taking Health damage, they count as Fatigued (or perhaps Sickened?) from the wound penalties. Vitality would come back like nonlethal damage (HD / 10 minutes of rest), while Health would come back the slow way.
Perhaps Healing magic would convert Health damage to Vitality damage, instead of instantly making wounds go away, but that would be a completly optional sub-tweak.
Everyone would have more 'hit points' at 1st level, equal to their Con score, but so would the monsters. (And undead would get bonus hit points similar to the bonus HP Constructs get based on size, to keep them up with the Joneses.)
I think I would avoid anything that deals damage straight to health, but maybe make critical hits deal their critical multiplier minus one in hit point damage in addition to the stamina damage.
I would also leave cure spells as is, but make healing hit points a lot harder. For example, Cure light wounds can heal 1d8 + level stamina or 1 hit point. Cure moderate would heal 2 hit points or 2d8+level stamina, and so on.
My tweak on it would probably be to make the math easier and just give everyone Health equal to their Con score, and then Vitality/Grace equal to their class / race-based HD, with max Vitality for PCs at level 1, and then average (round up) for every other level. Once someone is out of Vitality / Grace and starts taking Health damage, they count as Fatigued (or perhaps Sickened?) from the wound penalties.
The drawback with that is that a goblin can (if he's pushed) fight for 12 mor hit points than normal, albeit at lower strength. It would also mean that the normal hit points aren't lowered, something I do want out of the system, because that makes dealing damage more useful even if you can't kill someone. See the discussion on blasts and the like.
However, I am removing the dying condition for having hit point damage, and replacing it with fatigue. And if you don't have any sp, exhaustion. This will mean that even hurt people will benefit from a Restore Stamina II (cure moderate wounds).
EDIT: Ah, I read wrong. Didn't see that your solution involved removing stamina points per con per level. That makes it much better.
The main problem I see grafting something like this onto D&D (as opposed to a clean-sheet system designed around it) is that melee/physical combatants are disproportionately affected by conditions like disabled vs. vancian spellcasters, for whom action economy is more of a luxury. Minimum, I would also apply the penalty to your DCs and possibly level dependent effects (i.e. 1dX+N where N is level dependent).
The main problem I see grafting something like this onto D&D (as opposed to a clean-sheet system designed around it) is that melee/physical combatants are disproportionately affected by conditions like disabled vs. vancian spellcasters, for whom action economy is more of a luxury. Minimum, I would also apply the penalty to your DCs and possibly level dependent effects (i.e. 1dX+N where N is level dependent).
I originally thought that the penalties should apply to concentration as well, but I agree that it's not enough.
What about this?
- If you have no Stamina Points, you are Tired.
- If you have less than full hit points, you are Wounded
- Creatures with no constitution score has hit points based on size.
New condition: Tired
A tired creature may not take both a standard and a move action in a single round, and may not take full round actions.
New condition: Wounded
A wounded creature has taken a serious wound. Due to the massive pain, as long as he's wounded, he takes a -4 penalty to all attributes and cannot run or charge. Creatures with no constitution score are immune to this effect, but such pain is a natural limitation and affects even creatures normally immune to mind-affecting abilities. This replaces the Disabled condition in all respects.
----
I think this mechanic would work decently, and introducing two new conditions might not be too much since they are quite simple - especially if another one is removed.
The wonky thing though, is that if you're wounded, you lose access to four hit points instantly, having your max lowered. So if a goblin is tired and takes 3 damage, it goes from 12 to 5.
The issue here is players will just look for ways to force characters down the track. That is what I did with my first SW character. I even found ways to do it more than once in a round which made it easier for the rest of the group to take it further down. Not one bad guy got pass round 2.
Now if there were not abilities that targeted the track specifically and it relied only on massive damage it could work. I have thought about it on, and off, but I keep finding ways to exploit it.
PS: I do have another idea. If I get time to put it on paper I will put it here for reviewing.
Disclaimer: I have not read all the posts.
EDIT: NOOOO! Forum ate hour-long edit, and I thought to myself right before "gotta copy this first". Anyway, simplifying the formula was a good idea, and this is the current plan:
HP = Con score + Base Fort
SP = (Hit dice + con) per level (as normal HP)
All hit dice are downsized one step.
This way, fighter types will keep an even larger edge over mages, as they will gain a few extra hit points; a little more margin of error so to speak. As long as HD isn't higher than con score + base fort, total points before death has increased.
The issue here is players will just look for ways to force characters down the track. That is what I did with my first SW character. I even found ways to do it more than once in a round which made it easier for the rest of the group to take it further down. Not one bad guy got pass round 2.
Now if there were not abilities that targeted the track specifically and it relied only on massive damage it could work. I have thought about it on, and off, but I keep finding ways to exploit it.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here, seeing as how English isn't my main language, but I guess you're talking about using attacks that bypass the stamina points? My thought is that there aren't any.
Now, since HP is tied to the con score, any attacks that would lower HP directly could be described as constitution damage. Lower a creatures constitution to 0 and it will die, but it might still have hit points left so you can't abuse it for easier kills.
The one exception would be natural hazards, which is a reason why I even wanted this system. Falling should deal, after a few feet (say about 20, unmodified by acrobatics), real hit points damage. This COULD be abused, by reverse gravity for example, but it's generally quite hard to do and only doable under certain limited circumstances - and I'm fine with that, as that's more creative use of abilities than abuse.
If you need to have such an "anti-heroic" system, then I think it would be easier to simply "disable" anyone below 50% hitpoints (aka "bloodied" in 4e) instead of introducing stamina points. For falling simply say that above 20ft. everyone is taking 50% of their hitpoints as base damage +xd6.
This is a much simpler way of doing what you wanna do at about the same look and feel.
If you don't shy away from some real conversion work, you could go along the route of rewarding the fighting against disabled foes instead of penalizing it. Changing/reinventing spells/feat/abilities to work only or better against disabled opponents could be very cool.
This would drive home the "danger" feeling without complicating the game too much (players didn't need constant adjustments to the values on their character sheets).
We've been playing with rules similar to yours and Unearthed Arcana's Vitality/Wounds points for quite some time with great success and fun.Monte's book of Experimental Might proposes a similar mechanic, with Health and Grace points, and the Grace points coming back faster, with a mechanic similar to healing surges, and the 'bloodied' condition applying when you've taken Health damage (which means you've blown through your Grace, or been targetted by one of those rare attacks that does damage straight to Health, like some undead or high level necromancy effects, IIRC).
My tweak on it would probably be to make the math easier and just give everyone Health equal to their Con score, and then Vitality/Grace equal to their class / race-based HD, with max Vitality for PCs at level 1, and then average (round up) for every other level. Once someone is out of Vitality / Grace and starts taking Health damage, they count as Fatigued (or perhaps Sickened?) from the wound penalties. Vitality would come back like nonlethal damage (HD / 10 minutes of rest), while Health would come back the slow way.
Perhaps Healing magic would convert Health damage to Vitality damage, instead of instantly making wounds go away, but that would be a completly optional sub-tweak.
Everyone would have more 'hit points' at 1st level, equal to their Con score, but so would the monsters. (And undead would get bonus hit points similar to the bonus HP Constructs get based on size, to keep them up with the Joneses.)
My Health/Grace rules are very similar to that. It's not the *best* way to integrate them, but I found it was the easiest and the most 'backward compatible' (read least changes in monsters and NPC stat blocks).
As it stands with our game, only Health is affected by healing magic, but vitality/grace points come back relatively fast independently from divine magic. While it doesn't diminish the use of clerical magic, it does put less stress on the 'heal-bot factor', which sits well with our group.
It mostly affect combats with low challenge rating level (goblins have suddenly significantly more hit points) and single mosters of high challenge rating (lack of instant healing shows more at level 12 +).
I'll spare you the details of my rules (although I could post them on another thread if it interests anyone) but it tends to make combat a bit less predictable and on the whole a bit faster (except at low levels).
If you need to have such an "anti-heroic" system (snip)
I strongly disagree with that statement, although I don't think you meant that as a derogatory remark. Heros still have multiple times the amount of stamina points than low level monsters and can still single-handly take an army of low level opponents.
EDIT: NOOOO! Forum ate hour-long edit, and I thought to myself right before "gotta copy this first". Anyway, simplifying the formula was a good idea, and this is the current plan:
HP = Con score + Base Fort
SP = (Hit dice + con) per level (as normal HP)
All hit dice are downsized one step.This way, fighter types will keep an even larger edge over mages, as they will gain a few extra hit points; a little more margin of error so to speak. As long as HD isn't higher than con score + base fort, total points before death has increased.
The issue here is players will just look for ways to force characters down the track. That is what I did with my first SW character. I even found ways to do it more than once in a round which made it easier for the rest of the group to take it further down. Not one bad guy got pass round 2.
Now if there were not abilities that targeted the track specifically and it relied only on massive damage it could work. I have thought about it on, and off, but I keep finding ways to exploit it.I'm not sure what you're talking about here, seeing as how English isn't my main language, but I guess you're talking about using attacks that bypass the stamina points? My thought is that there aren't any.
Now, since HP is tied to the con score, any attacks that would lower HP directly could be described as constitution damage. Lower a creatures constitution to 0 and it will die, but it might still have hit points left so you can't abuse it for easier kills.
The one exception would be natural hazards, which is a reason why I even wanted this system. Falling should deal, after a few feet (say about 20, unmodified by acrobatics), real hit points damage. This COULD be abused, by reverse gravity for example, but it's generally quite hard to do and only doable under certain limited circumstances - and I'm fine with that, as that's more creative use of abilities than abuse.
He is saying talking about letting things in the system specifically target hit points and bypass stamina. IE if I had a level 4 spell that did 1d4 hit points in damage no matter what it would be a very powerful spell.
I don't see anything in the rules you mentioned about anything like that. As long as there is no easy way to bypass the stamina, this system should work fine.
He is saying talking about letting things in the system specifically target hit points and bypass stamina. IE if I had a level 4 spell that did 1d4 hit points in damage no matter what it would be a very powerful spell.
I don't see anything in the rules you mentioned about anything like that. As long as there is no easy way to bypass the stamina, this system should work fine.
The way it is now, 1d4 it points for a level 4 spell is quite bad. Poison, as a level 3 spell, deals 1d3 con damage per round until a save is made. Since hit points is equal to con + bab, max hit points will always be at least as high as the con score. Thus, damage to con is worth more than damage to hp.