I've talked about this with others in other topic threads, and decided it really needs a thread of its' own.
For various reasons I seem blessed (or cursed) with an abundance of players - which is fine with me, I love it, but not all of them do. To keep the occasional PvP to a minimum I typically split them into two or three smaller groups over different nights, with the occasional monster session being treated more as a mini-LARP/role-playing party. It can be a lot of work, but a lot of fun too.
With Kingmaker I'm going back to play with strategies and techniques that played very well when I was running Birthright (where I had upwards of 15 players at its' height) and V:tM (with or without the LARPing). My current plan is to have the Greenbelt Expedition form with a far larger expeditionary force than the typically assumed 4-5 man group. Each player is entitled, if they choose, to have up to three characters at a time (a leader, an explorer and a servant or minion - this last is restricted to an NPC class, but allows for a player's eye view of the game Adventurers usually miss). Each session players may pull out one of these PCs (as appropriate to their circumstances), while the rest are presumably off doing whatever they typically do in downtime elsewhere.
I'm planning to kick off the game with a party (possibly doing a pot-luck dinner or some such) with all the Lead (or Lord) characters gathering in Restov to look into this charter business and agree to work together to make the Expedition happen. Once they're all (at least in theory) on the same team, the following session(s) move the action to Oleg's Trading Outpost where they and their retinues move to establish a base of operations. From there smaller teams (of the more traditional adventuring variety) can wander off into the wilderness to explore. As we move into later phases of the game, different teams of players can establish separate settlements to lord over, while their more adventurous characters can keep exploring, and possibly become excuses for other characters to look for if/when they don't return in a timely manner. Every once in a while (as time and energy permit) I can host additional "party" sessions where the players from both groups come together under the umbrella of a tourney, feast or high holy day and brag, make policy or otherwise socialize.
Thoughts? Is anyone else planning on playing along these lines and have strategies to share?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This sounds really cool - I'm a big fan of these types of set ups. I have a more typical sized group, but I was thinking of having them make multiple characters like this ( but coming in as they get to be higher level, with the new characters at 1st level).
Usualy, when I see troupe, I think multiple/rotating dms. Have you done anything like that or do you plan to?
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I'll be following this topic with interest, considering I'll have a pool of about 18 players to draw from! I'm trying to come up with solutions that allow everyone to play and effect the kingdom. (Even coming up with parrallel kingdoms, and having one group explore and colonise Golarion's Underdark equivalent).
Right now I'm just spitballing, but reading everyone else's solutions should be handy.
I'm still finishing up Curse of the Crimson Throne (just finished book two, but considering I'm cutting/condensing books 5-6 it should only be a couple of months) and then it's Kingmaker time.
Oh and I have a Mass Effect Table-top game I should run before time becomes a factor.
This sounds really cool - I'm a big fan of these types of set ups. I have a more typical sized group, but I was thinking of having them make multiple characters like this ( but coming in as they get to be higher level, with the new characters at 1st level).
Usualy, when I see troupe, I think multiple/rotating dms. Have you done anything like that or do you plan to?
Several of my players are also GMs, so I have always been comfortable tossing rules questions out to them to look up while I keep things running. As far as GMing partnerships, though I did quite a bit of it with games like V:tM and its' LARPing cousin, I've never really needed to with Pathfinder (d20 has different running requirements, so I've never really felt the need). I did manage a planar-hopping campaign some years back that played very well, where every player who was willing took turns GMing and we traded off every week (think Sliders, but with the entire d20/OGL to chose from). Worked well for Rifts too, come to think of it.
One think I've been doing lately that seems to work well in Pathfinder is that if the party is split up and one group is off getting itself into trouble, hand the players not in on the action the monsters. I have never seen such sympathy for Wild Dogs! They gave them names, descriptions... If one survived, they would attach him to the next band of Dogs they met and establish revenge themes to them...
Also improves the monster's dice-luck too, oddly enough.
I'll be following this topic with interest, considering I'll have a pool of about 18 players to draw from! I'm trying to come up with solutions that allow everyone to play and effect the kingdom. (Even coming up with parrallel kingdoms, and having one group explore and colonise Golarion's Underdark equivalent).
Right now I'm just spitballing, but reading everyone else's solutions should be handy.
I'm still finishing up Curse of the Crimson Throne (just finished book two, but considering I'm cutting/condensing books 5-6 it should only be a couple of months) and then it's Kingmaker time.
Oh and I have a Mass Effect Table-top game I should run before time becomes a factor.
Yaow - last time I had that many (outside of a LARP) I was running Call of Cthulhu. The game didn't go well, but everyone thought it made for a great party.
I think my current "pool" is about 11 or 12, though I have at least 4 or 5 more I'd rope in if they'd let me. I do have a few who have played with me in the past who aren't interested in actually joining the game proper, but who who are very interested in being flies on the wall (perhaps with a name and identity attached) for the Meet-n-Greet. For that I'm thinking of adapting one of those Dinner-mystery murder party games ("Who killed the Duke! Was it... YOU?") to get the ball rolling. Kick the campaign off with accusing the PCs of murder, and that sure as heck gives my spoilt little aristocrats an excuse to go running south for the border.
So, having gotten a few more characters and players hammered out, it looks like I'll have 12-13 players spread out over two group on separate nights (one team of 5, one team of 8-9). With troupe-style play enabled (each player being allowed a stable of 3 PCs - a Leader, and Explorer, and a Grog) I'm looking at upwards of possibly 39 characters, more or less (I'm sure less, but not by how much).
Rules in place include:
- No more than one character can be played actively at one time (downtime can bounce all over the place, but only one character can be off playing adventurer with any one party).
- Fast advancement for XP.
- Bonus XP for meeting personal goals: an Idea I'm borrowing from Aces & Eights. Basically story awards for meeting clearly stated and defined objectives.
- Bonus XP for meeting Professional goals: again, A&8 gives very good guidelines for this sort of thing. It also gives the characters who are more focused on a day job (such as the Grogs) a very valid alternative to adventuring for XP.
- Bonus XP for player contributions: I have some players who like to do character portraits, some who like to paint minis, some who like tow write, and some who like to cook. All these things can serve as an excuse to give a little boost to one or another character as time goes on.
- Bonus Dungeon/Encounters: this is the more common approach to padding out XP if PCs start falling behind, but given how crowded the map already is, I'd rather not add much more. I may insert a few "improved" event-based encounters (traveling caravan, bandit raid, etc), especially for the supporting characters back at the Outpost, or borrow a page from some of the excellent ideas already presented here on these forums, but the real challenge for a multiple party arrangement is if one party manages to hit the majority of the "mini-dungeon" encounters. Given the majority of those are clustered more or less in one corner of the map, I can easily see one of the two groups snagging the lion's share of the xp for the first leg of the campaign. To make up for that, I'm considering options for a second scenario to tuck onto the far end of the map. Sadly, the majority of Paizo's low-level adventures seem tied to a town, but if I can find a ruin/dungeon I like and think will fit well, I'll likely use that (the actual crypt in Crypt of the Everflame, the Catacombs of Wrath from RotR, or even updating/adapting the old B1: Into the Unknown pop to mind).
For starting out, my plan is to kick off with which ever group is ready, have them solve the problems in Part 1, then have a get-together/mini-LARP party wherein everyone plays one character for the evening and work out the details of who's exploring what end of the map. For this event I'll likely invite a few extra friends who don't have the actual time, energy or interest in committing to an ongoing campaign but wouldn't mind playing an NPC for the evening (besides Oleg & company, I thought it would be a good time to introduce the sample hirelings from the recently released Hirelings PDF ). The PnPCs then have the simple objectives of passing on quests, getting hired, and pointing out Wanted Posters.
Thoughts?
I'm actually thinking of running Crypt of the Everflame as my lead in. I'll move the town to southern Brevoy. Instead of a Pathfinder talking to them at the end of the adventure, have it as somebody from Restov. Adventure is short enough to give the PCs a little boost in XP without overpowering them. It also would explain how a low level party would get the charter to explore.
By the next installment of the AP, I'm thinking of squeezing in Revenge of the Kobold King. That is if the players kill the sorcerer. Then I just use the sorcerer instead of the original kobold king. Best off, the PDF for that one is free.
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I've got two separate and very distinct groups each about 5 or 6 players. I was tossing around the idea of running both groups through Kingmaker. Now that I've seen this thread I will be following with interest.
One of the ideas I had was to kinda treat them as two separate/rival groups hired by the Stag Lords to pacify the Stolen Lands. Allowing them to each build their own kingdom.
I was initially concerned that I wouldn't be able to advance them fast enough, but using the fast progression and maybe throw in a couple of extra wanted posters should take care of that.
We usually only get together about once a month, so if one group finished a couple of tasks, they would come off the board when the other group comes to look for jobs. Kinda make it a friendly competition.
Additional thoughts?
One of the ideas I had was to kinda treat them as two separate/rival groups hired by the Stag Lords to pacify the Stolen Lands. Allowing them to each build their own kingdom.
I think you mean Swordlords, not Stag Lords (that's someone else entirely;), but yeah - that's definitely a way to go. I kinda like the idea, and may borrow the competitive concept (though not the details), and will explain in a moment...
... if one group finished a couple of tasks, they would come off the board when the other group comes to look for jobs. Kinda make it a friendly competition.
Definitely the model I'm following. I know my players, so I kind of assumed a little friendly competition between the groups. It doesn't help that they've practically factionalized themselves without any help or intent from me. One crew almost universally picked either the Noble Born trait or otherwise tied their background to the upper classes for their Lead characters. The other party (which is not quite complete) seems to be very middle-lower class, consisting of Pioneers and such - though they all seem to have a strong distrust of them high class folk. I'm fully expecting them to establish rival colonies once we hit Part 2 of the AP.
The larger party is arriving ready to rule, but the smaller, working class group is much better prepared for exploring the wild. It should prove fun (I'm expecting some Darwin-in-action moments).
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One of the ideas I had was to kinda treat them as two separate/rival groups hired by the Stag Lords to pacify the Stolen Lands. Allowing them to each build their own kingdom.I think you mean Swordlords, not Stag Lords (that's someone else entirely;), but yeah - that's definitely a way to go. I kinda like the idea, and may borrow the competitive concept (though not the details), and will explain in a moment...
... if one group finished a couple of tasks, they would come off the board when the other group comes to look for jobs. Kinda make it a friendly competition.Definitely the model I'm following. I know my players, so I kind of assumed a little friendly competition between the groups. It doesn't help that they've practically factionalized themselves without any help or intent from me. One crew almost universally picked either the Noble Born trait or otherwise tied their background to the upper classes for their Lead characters. The other party (which is not quite complete) seems to be very middle-lower class, consisting of Pioneers and such - though they all seem to have a strong distrust of them high class folk. I'm fully expecting them to establish rival colonies once we hit Part 2 of the AP.
The larger party is arriving ready to rule, but the smaller, working class group is much better prepared for exploring the wild. It should prove fun (I'm expecting some Darwin-in-action moments).
That sounds awesome, I hope you guys keep game-blogs online I could follow.
Grendel. It sounds like you are very well set and I have read your thread with great interest, envying your large supply of players-- and thinking to adopt your troupe style play after my players get established in the region.
If you are looking for more ways to gain experience and maybe to further develop the lands you might want to check out this thread that is designed to host encounters to expand what Kingmaker has to offer (Each encounter ties in with the plot).
For my first session, I also roleplayed the players wandering into a hunter's summer base camp located about 12-20 miles north from Oleg's that was mostly a bunch of boarded up shacks and only had one guy in it- the proprietor, trying to get them to stay the night (it was noon when they rolled through). He let the players know about the bandits' extortion efforts and explained that they killed a few hunters and trappers and scared off most of the traffic.
If the players had wandered around, they might have found 2 small single-family farms I situated about 20 miles north of Oleg's on a river that runs roughly W-E through the hunter's summer base camp.
If you are looking for more ways to gain experience and maybe to further develop the lands you might want to check out this thread that is designed to host encounters to expand what Kingmaker has to offer (Each encounter ties in with the plot).
I actually have been following that thread with interest. There are some cool ideas in there :)
For those of you who mentioned an interest in seeing a journal of troupe-style, multi-party action, check out this thread.
Feedback, as always, is appreciated.
5 sessions for 2 groups later, I've come to some conclusions about my grand experiment.
First: Medium advancement is just fine. I've been using that speed in conjunction with approximate xp splits for the party and - thanks to the occasionally brutal application of Wandering Monsters, the survivors are advancing at a very reasonable clip. Also, liberal use of bonus xp for side-quests, player contributions and rp awards help pad them out - I am sometimes stingy with them in other games, but they work well for padding out PCs in this game.
Second: Troupes are great for providing options to the players for tackling encounters, and a great safety net for replacing characters quickly. It's also very freeing for me as GM to let loose and not worry about the possibility of a Wandering Monster or TPK derailing the game. As everyone has characters everyone else knows already back at camp, there's not a lot of time wasted on rolling up new characters or trying to work them in.
Third: Motivation - my players can be competitive, but with two groups competing for limited resources, it seems to be taking things to a whole new - and arguably reasonable - level. This rivalry seems increasingly to be one of the cornerstones of the campaign. Also should make the politics rather byzantine once we get to the kingdom-building phase.
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I currently have about 9 players.
My plan is to put up Wanted Posters at Oleg's, and characters sign up to take on quests. Splitting themselves up and changing teams as people are available. Two quests can be active simultaneously, so there can be two 'teams' active at any one time.
Once both quests are complete, two more quests go up.
It's yet another fun experiment.