I've always liked two weapon fighting as a combat style, so the Tempest was my favorite PrC from 3.5. When one of my players asked me to port it, I jumped on the chance. Here's what I've come up with so far - any feedback would be appreciated. Is it too powerful? Does it need a better max-level ability (my friend suggested allowing a second rend, for instance)?
1st: Tempest Defense, Ambidexterity +1
2nd: Tempest Offense
3rd: Tempest Defense +1, Ambidexterity +2
4th: Improved Tempest Offense
5th: Tempest Defense +2, Perfect Ambidexterity
Tempest Defense: At first level, a Tempest gains the Two-Weapon Defense feat as a bonus feat, even if they do not have the normal prerequisites. At both third and fifth levels, the bonuses from this feat increase by 1. The Tempest only gets the benefit from this ability while not wearing heavy armor.
Ambidexterity: At first level, a Tempest reduces the penalties associated with fighting with two weapons by 1 (to -1 if the off hand weapon is light, -3 otherwise). At third level, the penalties are reduced by an additional 1 (eliminating the penalty if the off hand weapon is light, -2 otherwise). The Tempest only gets the benefit from this ability while not wearing heavy armor.
Tempest Offense: At second level, a Tempest gains the Double Slice feat as a bonus feat, even if they do not have the normal prerequisites. In addition, they may attack with both weapons as a standard action. The Tempest only gets the benefit from these abilities while not wearing heavy armor.
Improved Tempest Offense: At fourth level, a Tempest gains the Two-Weapon Rend feat as a bonus feat, even if they do not have the normal prerequisites. In addition, they may attack with both weapons while performing a spring attack.
Perfect Ambidexterity: When fighting with two weapons, the Tempest can apply feats that affect only one of their weapons to the other as well. This ability can only be applied to Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, or any feat which has either of those feats as a prerequisite. In addition, this benefit can only be applied if the two weapons are in the same weapon group (see PRGCR page 56), or you are racially proficient with both.
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Far too powerful. Your essentially giving at least a bonus feat at every level, at 3rd and 5th Level they are gaining even more than a single feat bonus. Balance wise, compare it to five levels of Fighter.
Every single TWF character will want this as it is. I'd steer clear of reducing the TWF penalty anymore than it already is reduced; look for other ways to create this.
I like the look of this, it's nice, but
Far too powerful. Your essentially giving at least a bonus feat at every level, at 3rd and 5th Level they are gaining even more than a single feat bonus. Balance wise, compare it to five levels of Fighter.
Every single TWF character will want this as it is. I'd steer clear of reducing the TWF penalty anymore than it already is reduced; look for other ways to create this.
Agreed.
Also as a prestige class that focus on TWF and nothing else, I think prerequisites should include at least the TWF feats you are giving as a bonus, and build upon those. It would make
1- Less generic and less of a de facto choice for any TWF build.
2- Require some kind of effort and spending to enter the class while making sense flavor-wise.
3- Tone down the power level and allow for further customization with abilities other than bonus feats.
I personally would take out the bonus feats all together, put them as a prerequisite and put for skills, take the fighter list and add balance and tumble kind of things, a high reflex and fortitude save, and to keep it balanced, remove ambidexterity perhaps.
In reading this over while previewing, I think I sound too defensive. That's not the tone I wanted, but I'm not sure how to fix it and still convey the point. My apologies to Alexander and pony.
Far too powerful. Your essentially giving at least a bonus feat at every level, at 3rd and 5th Level they are gaining even more than a single feat bonus. Balance wise, compare it to five levels of Fighter.
It's only 3 feats over 5 levels (at 1, 2 and 4), although they do get something else to go along with each of those, and the level 5 ability can be like getting a lot of new feats all at once. Five levels of fighter gives you 2-3 feats, 1-2 weapon training, 1-2 armor training, and 1-2 bravery bonuses. Bravery doesn't really matter to the comparison, but armor training for a dex-based fighter (which TWF fighters are) is an extra AC, and weapon training is an extra attack and damage. So if you ignore the second half of the Tempest Offense abilities, they're pretty close to even (3 set feats, +2 to attack, and +2 AC beyond the feats, vs 3 flexible feats, +1 to attack, +1 to damage (per attack on each hand, for a well-built fighter), and +1 AC).
Once you add in the other stuff, it becomes significantly more powerful, I agree. But Prestige classes are supposed to be. Compare the first 5 levels of Duelist, which is the closest comparison: Up to +5 AC (and even more against AoO's), +5 damage, the ability to sacrifice attacks to avoid being hit (and turn that into AoOs), and 2.5 feats (Improved Reaction is half of Improved Initative, Grace is Lightning Reflexes, and Combat Reflexes). The next 5 levels aren't quite as good (although still good), but you can always go back to Fighter after the 5th one if you don't want them.
My understanding of the design philosophy is that PrCs give you more for your levels than you would get as the base class, some of which you have no way to get any other way, but that you give up progression in your base class to get it (which is now actually a disadvantage, compared to 3.5). By taking 5 levels of Tempest, a fighter delays getting Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Spec, and Penetrating Strike & Greater, they delay getting more weapon groups and increasing their existing bonuses, and they push both of their capstone talents into epic levels.
Every single TWF character will want this as it is. I'd steer clear of reducing the TWF penalty anymore than it already is reduced; look for other ways to create this.
Well, that was really the whole point of the 3.5 Tempest. It removed the TWF penalties and the "two different weapon" penalty. I have another conversion which is much closer to the original I'll include at the bottom of this post.
Also as a prestige class that focus on TWF and nothing else, I think prerequisites should include at least the TWF feats you are giving as a bonus, and build upon those.
It appears I forgot to copy in the top part of the conversion. The prerequisites are the same as they were in 3.5: +6 BAB, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, TWF, and ImpTWF. It also adds Acrobatics to the character's class skills.
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That all being said, I appreciate the feedback. As I was building it, I kept thinking "Is this going to be too powerful?", looking at the Duelist, and saying "Nah". It's good to see I'm not the only one to think that on first impressions. If it still seems too powerful after the points I made above, I'll be happy to nerf it some.
Requirements: BAB +6, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex)
Hit Die, skills, BAB, and Saves are as per fighter.
1st: Tempest Defense
2nd: Ambidexterity (-3 / -1)
3rd: Tempest Defense +1, Two-weapon Versatility
4th: Ambidexterity (-2 / -0)
5th: Tempest Defense +2, Two-weapon spring attack
Tempest Defense: At first level, a Tempest gains the Two-Weapon Defense feat as a bonus feat, even if they do not have the normal prerequisites. At both third and fifth levels, the bonuses from this feat increase by 1. The Tempest only gets the benefit from this ability while not wearing heavy armor.
Ambidexterity: At second level, a Tempest reduces the penalties associated with fighting with two weapons by 1. At fourth level, the penalties are reduced by an additional 1. The Tempest only gets the benefit from this ability while not wearing heavy armor.
Two-weapon Versatility: When fighting with two weapons, the Tempest can apply feats that affect only one of their weapons to the other as well. This ability can only be applied to Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, or any feat which has either of those feats as a prerequisite. In addition, this benefit can only be applied if the two weapons are in the same weapon group (See page 56), or you are racially proficient with both.
Two-weapon spring attack: When using the Spring Attack feat and not wearing heavy armor, the Tempest can attack once each with both weapons as part of the attack.
The only changes in this version from the original are the allowing of medium armor with all the abilities, turning a flat bonus to AC into the TWDefense feat (the bonus remains the same, except while fighting defensively), and restricting the weapons for the Versatility ability while applying it to a few more feats. Other than that, it's a straight conversion. I think it's underpowered compared to Pathfinder PrCs.
I see your points. Well with all those feats as prerequisites it makes sense, the comparison with duelist. too. I was thinking that the class could be squished into 4 levels and remove weapon defense and add it as a prerequisite to allow a player to stay more within his class.
Or maybe keep 5 levels and see if there's some kind of cool ability that could be used instead of a bonus feat, to give the class more of a really unique flavour. Like maybe break the TWF Spring attack back into 2 steps like with the first version.
I wouldn't keep weapon versatility restricted to same group of weapons for flavor to encourage seeing more random builds of TWF with a mace in one hand and an axe in another instead of the super cliche 2 swords etc kind of thing.
With the skill list you mean the fighter's + acrobatics? It is a highly mobile class so I think tumble would be used a lot IMO.
Talkign about conversions, I invite you to check my conversion of the frenzied berserker in the "homebrew" thread under community content =).
I see your points. Well with all those feats as prerequisites it makes sense, the comparison with swashb. too. I was thinking that the class could b squished into 4 levels and remove weapon defense and add it as a prerequisite to allow a player to stay more within his class. Or maybe keep 5 levels and see if there's some kind of cool ability that could be used instead of a bonus feat, to give the class a more unique flavour.
I'd love to have some kind of truly unique ability that isn't a modification of something existing, but the original didn't have one and I couldn't think of a new one to add. If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them.
I wouldn't keep weapon versatility restricted to same group of weapons for flavor to encourage seeing more random builds of TWF with a mace in one hand and an axe in another instead of the super cliche 2 swords etc kind of thing.
The original material didn't have that restriction - I added it because it made sense to me, and it balanced against expanding the feats it applied to (originally it was just Weapon Focus, Spec, the improved versions thereof, and Imp Crit) and then added the racial part specifically for axe&hammer dwarves. I'm willing to drop it if people dislike it, though.
With the skill list you mean the fighter's + acrobatics? It is a highly mobile class so I think tumble would make sense too.
Having a skill as a class skill from two classes doesn't provide any benefits, and none of the fighter's skills would be necessary to a ranger or rogue taking this PrC. Tumble's part of Acrobatics now, so I entirely agree about giving them tumble ;)
Oh jeez sometimes I get stuck between 3.5 and pathfinder regarding those skills. The class skill list should include all the skills thematically tied to the class even if it does not add much to the most common builds entering it IMO.
Yeah.. a special ability.. hm that's a tough one...
The only thing I can think of at the moment is that the tempest can make an AoO with both weapons instead of one.
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In reading this over while previewing, I think I sound too defensive. That's not the tone I wanted, but I'm not sure how to fix it and still convey the point. My apologies to Alexander and pony.
Far too powerful. Your essentially giving at least a bonus feat at every level, at 3rd and 5th Level they are gaining even more than a single feat bonus. Balance wise, compare it to five levels of Fighter.It's only 3 feats over 5 levels (at 1, 2 and 4), although they do get something else to go along with each of those, and the level 5 ability can be like getting a lot of new feats all at once. Five levels of fighter gives you 2-3 feats, 1-2 weapon training, 1-2 armor training, and 1-2 bravery bonuses. Bravery doesn't really matter to the comparison, but armor training for a dex-based fighter (which TWF fighters are) is an extra AC, and weapon training is an extra attack and damage. So if you ignore the second half of the Tempest Offense abilities, they're pretty close to even (3 set feats, +2 to attack, and +2 AC beyond the feats, vs 3 flexible feats, +1 to attack, +1 to damage (per attack on each hand, for a well-built fighter), and +1 AC).
Once you add in the other stuff, it becomes significantly more powerful, I agree. But Prestige classes are supposed to be. Compare the first 5 levels of Duelist, which is the closest comparison: Up to +5 AC (and even more against AoO's), +5 damage, the ability to sacrifice attacks to avoid being hit (and turn that into AoOs), and 2.5 feats (Improved Reaction is half of Improved Initative, Grace is Lightning Reflexes, and Combat Reflexes). The next 5 levels aren't quite as good (although still good), but you can always go back to Fighter after the 5th one if you don't want them.
My understanding of the design philosophy is that PrCs give you more for your levels than you would get as the base class, some of which you have no way to get any other way, but that you give up progression in your base class to get it (which is...
Understand your points but it is not really like three feats over 5 levels, the versatility and lessening of the TWF penalties (the same mechanical value as weapon focus each time they are lowered) are akin to feats.
I agree with many of the points made above; TWF feats should be a prequisite not a bonus of the class. I strongly feel lessening the TWF penalties is a bad idea. It would make this class compulsary for every single TWF fighter in the multiverse.
As a capstone for Tempest, being treated as though you had weapon focus and weapon specialise in any weapons you wield in a TWF style could work (with a prequisite of Weapon focus in at least one weapon), ad rather than lessening the penalties perhaps Tempest's could lessen the pentlay for wielding two one-handed weapons as it scales up.
Still very powerful though. TFW is so damn powerful as it is in PF, the Tempest will struggle to not be a munchkin's wet dream.
In regards to Two Weapon Versatility. I agree with golden pony. By its very nature, a tempest with ANY 2 weapons is supposed to be fearsome. Saying the weapons are in the same group, or you have a racial familiarity, really means that if a human fighter (ie: the race known for its versatility) goes for tempest, he's stuck with basically the same 2 weapons. Besides, some of the nastier fighter feats that Pathfinder added get pushed back for a tempest fighter.
But I do agree with Bobson about adding acrobatics. I also personally like the "conversion v1" of the Tempest. Giving the 2-weapon rend and/or double slice as bonus feats really isn't that useful given that a TWFighter would probably use one of there many feats to get those. (I know I plan to for mine.)
Actually the Tempest PrC is one of my favorite in 3.5 and was already powerful enough. You just made it even more imba.
For those who dont know the class go to Complete Adventurer(page 81) and take a look to this awesome class.I dont think that a buff is what this class needs but a tweak.
You made the class playable with medium armor and you continue giving the +3 AC from the original (first buff).
You give two bonus TWF feats (the ability of this class to apply feats of one weapon you specialize to another is already powerful, second buff)
Last but not least, you give the ability to make an attack with the off-hand as a standard action(third buff). And at 5th level you imported the ability to make attack with the off-hand when using spring attack which is useless because earlier you gave a better ability.(spring attack= move-> standard action(attack)-> and move again)
Compared to Duelist: YOUR Tempest can dish out way far more damage that a duelist can even imagine[his precise strike clearly states that works only on living creatures with discernible anatomies and that are not immune to critical strikes(undead,constructs, abberations and some more are instantly immune to this)], the duelist can wear only light armor and adds his intelligence mod to AC per class level(this is lost if flat-footed) while YOURS Tempest can wear medium armor and gets +3 AC, yes the Duelist can dodge attacks but he dont make attacks in his round instead he can make AoO using his Parry AND Riposte abilities (and parry is difficult to work on a full BAB class) while YOURS Tempest can make full attacks and AoO,and yes Duelist takes 2.5 feats in those first 5 levels but YOURS Tempest takes Double-Slice,Two-Weapon Rend and weapon focus,imroved critical,weapon specialization for his off-hand weapon if its not the same with the main(greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization when he takes enough fighter levels)and i'm not mentioning Two-Weapon defence here because i already included this in the +3 AC part.
With this conversion i dont think there will be anyone TWF character who wont take this PrC.
Prestige classes in pathfinder are made so that the player can specialize in a specific task while being balanced not more powerful as you state(Compare this to a fighter this is overpowered,and yes i read your posts and i dont agree with most of them) Balance is the key to make games funnier and better not some overpowered & overbuffed 5 level PrC.
Tempest is fine the way it is in 3.5 your conversion is just way to powerfull.
- suggested to take away :
Limit the class to light armor and no shields, for both flavor and balance.
skills, just give acrobatics as class skill, most characters entering will be fighter and already have the class skills, but some might not, no need to give any more free skills
saves, I think for the tempest good reflex saves are more fitting then fortitude saves and looking at the core PrC tables at the other PrC's save progression for PrC's have changed a bit, so keep that in mind.
- suggested addition :
Perfect ambidexterity, damage bonus on attacks from strength or power attack made with your off-hand is no longer halved.
I do not see the class as overpowered, with these changes it seems fairly balanced, worthwhile for getting behind on your main progression, but doesn't scream broken either. This class appeals to me for trying to make a 2-weapon barbarian perhaps.
Hey thought about changing the linear shield bonus for a more exiting off-hand parry a la Duelist, receiving perhaps some bonus?
Seems balanced to me.
Oh, also I see that a possible capstoen ability, the one that lets you use your weapon focus, spec and the whole fighter chain, would only really benefit if you are a fighter with all those feats in your main-hand.
Otherwise (if you are not a fighter) the so called capstone is barely any better than dupiclating the effects of a feat (weapon focus) that you might not even have, and is actually worse than the +1 ambidexterity bonus, because it relies on you having weapon focus around as opposed to having a continous +1.
Also, due to the heavy feats prereauisites, fighter is encouraged to do this. Anyway, I would say that there should be this class efature that allows tempest levels to count as fighter levels so that people can chose their weapon spec ti use along with the capstone if they wish so, or that the fighter can benefit even mroe from the capstone by being high enough level to tkae greater focus or spec.
Ok. Gief name and description for the stacking ability :p. Eldritch knight has diverse trainning for description, name would be unfitting though.
Ok, consider it stolen :p. Except for the ability scores which are not used anymore as preerquisites since 2nd edition.
Maybe I am ignorant but if it was not because of this covnersaion, I'd thin that the weapon foucs tree is focus and greater focus only. Does that even incldue penetrating strike? Heh.
Wow. I wander away for two months and come back to find that someone actually picked up this idea and went with it. Yay!
I think I agree at this point that I made both my original builds too powerful. The problem is that the class is just so good to start with, with no real disadvantages - in 3.5 every two-weapon fighter who could qualify would want to take tempest unless they were going for another prestige class, and based on the guideline of not removing powers, I didn't want to take any of that away.
That being said, I certainly do feel that my thoughts could use some reevaluation, so I'm glad to see someone else's build. :)
Re: "In addition, they may attack with both weapons as a standard action" - the intent was that they may make one attack with each weapon instead of one attack with one weapon. This does NOT stack with a spring attack, because a spring attack is a full-round action.
I like your take on the mechanics, Relixander. It's pretty close to my "V1" tempest above, but I like what you did with versatility and when you can use perfect ambidexterity. I'm not sure I entirely agree with the flavor, but I certainly can't disagree with it either. One thing I strongly disagree with, though, is requiring specific stats to qualify. Asking for feats that require those levels is fine, because you can maybe get them as bonus feats or something like that, but this set of requirements would block (for example) two-weapon rangers who focus on strength and get all their TWF feats as bonus feats.
Two other nitpicks: Pathfinder PrC save bonuses start at either +0 (becoming +1 at 2nd level and +2 at 4th) or +1 (becoming +2 at 3rd level and +3 at 5th). Also, it's not entirely clear if you can use Weapon Versatility to qualify for Perfect Ambidexterity.
I think in my game I'm going to combine some of your ideas with some of mine - I'll take my V1 build above (not the one in the top post), keep the medium armor restriction on abilities(don't want tempests in plate), but use your wording for Weapon Versatility and Perfect Ambidexterity, and add in Weapon Affinity.
I personally don't think the Tempest PRC needs any changes, other then the progression to the saves.
I believe the PRC works fine the way it was made, it doesn't need any changes, plus your adding to much to it. leave the feats to be chosen by the player and not adding them directly to the prc.
Changed the saves, I prefer to keep the light armor restriction, as per the original PrC, I prefer to keep the Weapon Affinity also, otherwiese it forces the Tempest to have fighter levels to make good use of the Weapon Versatility ability (which was part of the original PrC), although Two-Weapon Spring Attack is a fun ability, Perfect Ambidexterity gives the Tempest a slight increase in damage, in a few more situations, play testing may reveal it to be too strong, but we'll see.
I'm ambivalent about the light armor restriction vs. medium, but other than that I agree. I don't think Perfect Ambidexterity will end up being too strong, except if used in conjunction with "Make one attack at your highest BAB" feats. Being able to attack with both weapons while using Greater Vital Strike seems overpowered to me... although allowing it would help make a two-weapon fighter more comparable to a two-handed fighter with the same feat in terms of damage.
Also, it's not entirely clear if you can use Weapon Versatility to qualify for Perfect Ambidexterity.but let me hopefully clear it up. One can not gain Perfect Ambidexterity without already having Weapon Affinity, as the only way to gain Perfect Ambidexterity is to be a 5th level Tempest and thus the Tempest would already have Weapon Affinity (3rd level Tempest). Can weapon affinity be used with Perfect Ambidexterity?, i.e. a two-weapon strike (when normally only a single melee attack could be done) with main hand Weapon Focus or Critical Focus tree feat being applied to the off-hand... Yes, I do not see why Weapon Versatility and Perfect Ambidexterity would be mutually exclusive.
It wasn't a question of exclusivity - it was a question of whether "or the Tempest has the Weapon Focus feat for both weapons" can be satisfied by applying the main-hand's Weapon Focus feat to the off hand via Versatility. My inclination is not, but I wanted to be sure that was what you intended.
Can you honestly say Tempest Offense is not OP? Seriously? Attack with both weapons as a standard action??? Too much imwo