Hi there! I’m firmly in the camp that believes there are problems with the existing barbarian as presented by PF. It didn’t go far enough and it’s weak for the effort. This is an attempt to correct that. It’s a work in progress and this is the third draft, so all criticisms are welcome.
Design Philosophy going in:
1) Barbarians are all about their rage ability – it defines them and carries them though. This must become even MORE significant itself (vs. rage powers).
2) PF dropped the ball on the Barbarian upgrades. It got nerfed HARD after Beta, and it’s reeling in recovery. I’m going to attempt to put it back where it *should* have been and/or to scale with the other melee classes.
3) Barbarian key identification qualities are: tough/durable, outrageous strength and damage dealing capacity, and fast reactions – in that order.
4) More can be added to make the class “fun” vs. worrisome. Bonus HP will disappear. Yes, this is part of the long-standing barbarian thing, but as rage gets better and more hp creep in, more damage tends to be taken and the barbarian will get hosed when coming out of his rage. {by hosed I mean killed}. It’s, quite frankly, NOT fun to have that sort of worry with a key and defining class feature in play. There are ways to fix it, and I will – no more sacred cow.
5) Speaking of sacred cows – say good bye to the idea of a barbarian with a sixth sense for danger. It’s an old artifact and really does nothing to highlight features of the class and what it’s capable of, so, “Good bye, Trap Sense – you’ll not be missed!”
I’ll be messing around w/rage powers too, but that’ll be a different post after this first one, or maybe a different thread. I agree with the idea of why the rage points disappeared – to keep things simple, but in the drive for simplicity, rage powers got screwed hard. So … I’ll just do a few things to try and add utility to them, completely do away with others entirely (given the boosts to the class structure proper from this), and the like as I go.
Without further ado, here’s my third attempt to play with things and fine-tune the barbarian to bring it back to where it should have been from the outset in the upgrade. I’m just going to present it with no frills or formatting, because it’s hard to do that stuff for me on a web-board. I’m not savvy enough for it, so I’m side-stepping it in a more direct format.
Hit Die: d12
BAB: Full
Saves: Fort save is the only Good progression
Skill List: Unchanged
Skill Points: Unchanged
Level Progression
1 = Rage, Fast Movement: +10’
2 = Rage Power, Uncanny Dodge
3 = DR 1/--
4 = Unfazeable
5 = Improved Rage; Rage Power
6 = Indefatigueable Stamina
7 = DR 2/--
8 = Rage Power, Preternatural Reflexes
9 = Fast Recovery {could use a new name}, Fast Movement: +20’
10 = Great Rage, Mettle
11 = DR 3/--, Rage Power
12 = Improved Uncanny Dodge
13 = Inexhaustible Endurance
14 = Indomitable Will; Rage Power
15 = Mighty Rage, DR 4/--
16 = Fueled by Fury
17 = Rage Power, Fast Movement: +30’
18 = Tireless Rage
19 = DR 5/--
20 = Supreme Rage; Rage Power
NOTE: things were shifted around here mostly to spread out the abilities more evenly, so keep that in mind.
Explanation of Changes (that need explaining)
Rage: Rage is a +2 bonus to str, and a +1 to Will and Fort saves. No more con bonus, or bonus HP’s for entering a rage. Instead, barbarians gain DR X/-- where X = the ability modifier increase of the rage type granted. So for Rage, it’s DR 1, etc. In addition, this DR is stackable with similar DR of any kind present on the barbarian (like it’s class-based DR/-- that is always on).
--Revision #2: ok, so I’m thinking that the 15 DR originally proposed *might* be a bit much. I’m not 100% convinced, but I think there are still ways for a barbarian to get up to that 15 in ways that other character classes really can’t, SO it’s still there as an option {rage powers and feats basically} for anyone that wants to reach that high with it. I’ve got no problem dialing down the base rage DR to match the save progression (and really, every progression granted by rage essentially).
Rage Damage: This is a new bonus just added to all melee damage a barbarian inflicts while in his rage state. It’s not huge and averages about a +3 boost/die, BUT this is something to help the barbarian reclaim position as damage dealer extreme – which they should be. It’s a way to boost damage (and damage only) in a semi-reliable way.
—Revision #2: I like the way this works as a damage boosting mechanic. It’s no where near as powerful as say a Sneak Attack, but it does add a bit more of a boost beyond just pumping Str. So, this can ramp up damage a bit w/out playing into other mechanics of the game like stat-inflation does. I also like that it’s not going to explode into even more damage with critical hits and the like – it’s limited to a flat addition, and that’s *reasonable* IMO. {Keep in mind that I also have many little tweaks that I’m adding to the Fighter class as well, and that ultimately the goal of this is to both amp up the abilities of melee-types to match against magic-types – not fully, mind you, but just give ‘em a little *oompf* for competition’s sake, and to then match these two up against each other as well.}
Fast Movement: This increases 2 times in progression in order to let a barbarian take advantage of speed and maneuverability a bit more than they can at present. It’s not on the level of a monk, but it’s still significant.
DR x/--: I’ve adjusted the DR placement in the progression because … I just needed to redistribute things throughout the 20 levels more evenly. One effect is that this now makes the first DR come into play at level 3. Honestly, it’s 1 point, so very minor, IMO, and easy to just let go. The progression moves at +1 DR/4 levels from that point, so by level 19, it’s still 5 anyway. Really, it was *just* a move that allowed a more even distribution of abilities all around. The *only* different piece is that the DR comes in at a pretty low level compared to previous versions.
Mettle: works like the Hex-Blade ability. It is evasion for Fort and Will save effects.
—Revision #2: I’ve kept it in the progression as an ability, but I’ve put it high up in the progression, and I’ve also dropped the Evasion ability. On the one hand, taking 3 features from a Rogue, I felt, was too much. They get the Uncanny Dodge and an improvement {again, delayed for class protection a bit}, so Evasion wasn’t necessary. On the other hand, granting a class that eventually gets almost paladin-like save boosting {w/my changes by 20th level or so … exaggeration, but still} when raging an additional boon of “if you miss the save, it’s only ½ effect” seems crazy. EVERY SAVE could potentially be a win for them in my last revision. In retrospect, that’s certainly too much. The save-boosting is significant and expanded already, so Mettle works out as the better addition – no other class has it, so it’s unique status comes into play and makes the barbarians different by far. This is a good thing – moderation of power boon, and fitting, as well as unique, class feature.
Unfazeable: Immunity to non-lethal damage and stun effects while raging. {I’ve finally settled on a name for this ability! Yea!!!}The idea here is that they’re so amped up so as to fully ignore anything less than truly life-threatening effects, or crippling effects (ie: strike blind, etc). It’s an “only in rage” thing, but it’s a guaranteed thing vs. “rage power” as a way to enhance reliably the rage feature of the barbarian overall. This does NOT grant them any protection from non-lethal damage from environmental effects or conditions, etc.
Improved Rage: Increase Str boost to +4, and save bonus to +2. DR increases to 2/-- . In addition, at this point, when in a rage, the barbarian will gain Fast Healing: 1 for the duration of his rage-state.
—Revision #2: keep in mind the stacking feature of the DR’s here. At this level, when raging, the DR final would be 3/-- to account for the DR1/- of level 3
Fast Healing: this is added as a feature while raging to the upper tier rage types and improves with each in order to give the barbarian additional “staying power” inside combat. It is a neat effect and functions well with this concept, IMO. Again, this is NOT relegated to rage power in favor of making it a guaranteed effect of the rage in progression and power vs. a *maybe* option of rage power.
Indefatigueable Stamina: while in a rage state, a barbarian becomes fully immune to any fatigue-based effects or states.
Preternatural Reflexes: in a rage state (ONLY) they gain the same bonus to Fort and Will saves added to their Ref saves as well. Again – guaranteed to increase the power and position of the rage vs. “rage power” of some sort.
Fast Recovery: This is there to act as a mid-way ability to the Tireless Rage feature. Currently, when in rage you have to be out of it for 2 rounds for every 1 round you used it. This speeds up fatigue recovery in general to about ½ that, so it turns out to be 1:1 in recovery instead of 2:1 recovery time before being able to rage again.
—Revision #2: still looking … ???
Great Rage: Increase Str bonus to +6 and a +3 bonus on all saves (now w/Preternatural Reflexes unlocked). DR steps up to 3 in rage at this level, Fast Healing also increases to 2, and there is +1d6 “rage damage” added to any damage he inflicts. This is NOT added to base damage or multiplied on a critical hit.
—Revision #2: DR when in rage here is 5, and the fast healing is at 2.
Inexhaustible Endurance: The barbarian becomes immune to the effects of exhaustion from any source while in his rage state.
Mighty Rage: this now grants a +8 to str and a +4 to saves. It also grants a DR of 4, but adds to the existing DR of 4 for a total DR of 8/-- when raging. Fast Healing improves to 5, and the rage damage increases to +2d6.
Fueled by Fury: When raging the barbarian gains immunity to Ability Damage and Drains. This is just one more way to emphasize the degree of toughness that accompanies the rage. It’s at 19th level, so it should have a pretty potent potential. Ability damage and drains don’t come up that often, so it’s kind of marginal, BUT it’s also limited to only in rage as a guaranteed thing (again vs. rage power limitations) for emphasis on the innate power of the rage itself by that level.
--Revision #2: I left this in to, again, enhance the durability factor of the rage. I also moved it to a lower position in progression to just balance where the empty levels fell {no empty level design}. It was between that and/or moving Tireless Rage, but I decided to keep Tireless Rage higher up as, IMO, it’s a stronger, and more frequently useful class feature.
Supreme Rage: There are now 5 tiers in the rage progression for added emphasis on the importance of the ability, and a smoother/lesser progression in stats, etc. Str bonus is now a +10 with a +5 to all saves. Fast Healing ups to 10, and the rage damage goes up to +3d6. Final DR here is 10/-- {with an option of using more rage powers to increase that amount if desired by individual PC’s}
Right, so – there it is. Version 3.0! Thoughts? Comments and Criticisms?
Please post away and help me refine this little project of mine.
Thanks,
-The Speaker in Dreams
A word of thanks to the contributions made by all posters for comments, etc. to help me refine it to this point so far:
Abraham Spalding (my constant idea-bouncing buddy),
Xum (expressing strong opinons of dissatisfaction),
Ellington (for starting me on this path w/the thread about high level barbarians in the first place, and the dearth of abilities to look forward to on Barbarians),
Fergie (pointing out the ability distribution of version 2.0),
Parka (bringing up the Mettle thing),
raidiou (for suggesting to eliminating the feats outright and design philosophies, etc).
I’m sure there are others in there, but these stand out most to me at the moment. I’m not trying to slight anyone, though – just dropping a note of appreciation for everyone that has been helping with this.
-The Speaker in Dreams
Nice Draft, What do you think of "Battle Lust" or "Berserkers Stamina" for "Fast recovery"?
Good show -- that looks astonishingly similar to the barbarian revision I posted some time ago -- especially with regards to the "levels" of rage and when they're gained. Great minds.
I also took the next step and separated rage powers into "levels" based on the level of rage available -- that way, 16th level barbarians are selecting from level-appropriate rage powers.
You might be pushing the barbarian power level a bit too far with your revision here, but I like many of the ideas contained.
What I'd first suggest is simplifying your templating, in the interests of making the class abilities a bit more clear. Especially for those of us who haven't seen the other two versions, you've included no actual formulation for some abilities (what's rage damage? How does mettle work?), and refer to other ones in very nonstandard ways.
I'd be happy to dig in more, but it would be easier if you could post your complete rules, rather than simply the highlights from the latest revision.
"Battle Lust" I think doesn't get at the idea of the fast recovery time between rages. Berserker's Stamina is better, though ... maybe doesn't exactly have a nice ring in the ear.
I also like the idea of rage powers separated by levels, but I'm still messing around with them. My end-game for them is to make them more in-line with the revisions that I've made to the core class.
@Maeloke: man ... I TOTALLY missed that. Sorry for any confusion. Being as I can't edit the info into the original post, I'll add whatever needs clarification as it comes to my attention.
Rage Damage: this is an idea centered around +1d6 damage. In this latest version, it begins at level 10, then goes up to +2d6 damage at level 15, and +3d6 at level 20.
Mettle: is like evasion, but for Will and Fort saves instead. It comes from the Complete Warrior and the Hex Blade class from 3.5. It was originally suggested to me by Parka, and I did like the idea for them to emphasize toughness and inherent durability in general. It was a nice, thematic fit for the rebuild and in-line with my design goals.
Hmm ... let me know if anything else is unclear.
Also, "pushing the power" where? With what abilities? Anything more specific would be very helpful to me.
@Kirth: I'd like to get a look at that class. What was the title? Where was it posted? :-)
@Speaker: About the Rage Damage. What about giving the barbarian a power that mimics the Paladin's smite. That would give adjusted damage based on level. I play a barbarian(17-lvl) and he was in a scrap beside his Paladin buddy and I was doing 1d10+10, while he was doing 2d6+36+something else I can't remember. His final on one hit was over 80pnts!!! That's without a critical.
@Speaker: About the Rage Damage. What about giving the barbarian a power that mimics the Paladin's smite. That would give adjusted damage based on level. I play a barbarian(17-lvl) and he was in a scrap beside his Paladin buddy and I was doing 1d10+10, while he was doing 2d6+36+something else I can't remember. His final on one hit was over 80pnts!!! That's without a critical.
Well ... if it's "evil" and a smite, a Paladin *should* kick everyone's butt bar-none damage-wise!
The Rage Damage adds +2d6 to any other damage considerations in-combat now on any successful strike (no special conditions met, or anything). This is a level 17 figure - by level 20 (where a paladin would gain +20, the barbarian could get from 3 to 18 points of extra damage this way. Coupled with his Rage state str bonus (that no other class can get ... yet anyway), it's another +5 on that, so potentially they *could* get up to a +23 to attack vs. the Paladin's +20 for the smite.
I like the variable range for emphasizing the chaotic side of barbarians and their wild fighting style (could hit and barely touch on a wild swing, could hit and darn near pulp whatever is on the receiving end). It's a range, and the average will tend towards 9 points more or less of extra damage on any given hit by level 20.
I'd just take this class build to your GM and just ask him to review it to see *if* it would be ok in his game. It's different in many ways from the typical barbarian build, but I feel it is more in-line with the other classes now for the effort.
Paladins can smite, heal, have auras and mercies, and can cast - that's pretty major stuff. Not to mention the "holy bond" or whatever it's called.
Rangers can cast, have favored enemies, favored terrain, animal companions, many class-only skill buffs (hide in plain sight, trackless step, etc). They, also, have major things in favor of them.
Existing Barbarians had ... rage powers, and most of them costing actions to activate/use (thus limiting actions spent in other ways) and are like 1/attack action or rage or something like that. It's crazy marginal in application. This build modified and improves this oversight, IMO. It also has offered up for sacrifice many of the "sacred cows" of what a barbarian has had for many years now - so I can see some gut-reactions to the idea of the changes.
Fighter's even get a damage-shine over the barbarians in the form of the weapon training's, and can match their speed bonus with armor training - beyond a str boost, they fared better (and are still weak compared to the other two melee-heavy types, so I'll be modifying them a bit as well - but in a different post).
For starters, let me see if I'm getting this right:
Rage:
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus to her Strength and a +1 morale bonus on Fortitude and Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration. Once the barbarian gains damage reduction at 3rd level, she doubles this value while raging (only DR gained from barbarian levels is doubled).
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
The bonus to strength increases by +2 at level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter. Similarly, the bonus to fortitude and will saves improves by +1 every 5 levels.
That saves you several redundant entries, and makes some of the progressions more clear.
Overall, your problem is that you're giving the barbarian a few too many useful survival abilities. DR is an excellent replacement for advanced constitution, but the across the board bonuses to saves is an improbable sell. +3-5 to all saves for essentially every combat? And Mettle? You're stomping on the monk's toes, and the bonus to reflex saves makes mockery of your vow to do away with that silly barbarian nimbleness. The fast healing is marginally acceptable powerwise thanks to the limited rounds of rage, but it accomplishes the same thing as DR while encouraging nonsensical play, like raging outside of combat to heal.
Further: The damage bonus is plainly broken. Your barbarian is already scoring a straight-off bonus to every strength-related skill, which clearly parallels the fighter's weapon bonuses. Clever barbarians will be amping that by 50% with a 2-handed weapon, resulting in a typical +4 to hit/+6 to damage, very nearly matching the figher. Accounting for DR, he has roughly twice the effective hit point pool as fighters, vastly improved combat maneuver options, and better saves; he should not be thrashing them for +1-3d6 extra damage, too.
Where I think you're on solid ground is the fast recovery and resistance to various fatigue effects - those really are appropriate for the barbarian, and reasonably balanced to boot. Improved DR is also good, mechanically much smoother than fleeting constitution bonuses.
What to do, then? I think I'd actually go back to the original barbarian and incorporate your ideas there. Drop constitution from rage, keep strength at +4, and double their DR while raging. Start the barbarian at DR 1/- at level 1 (2/- raging) and advance it every 3rd level to a max of 7/- at level 19 (or 14/- while raging). Align your amped fortitude and will saves to base progression standards (+1 until level 5 is way too fiddly). Drop trap sense and add in fast recovery and mettle.
You should probably drop DR from the rage powers options, but other abilities of yours could be integrated into them - immunity to fatigue or stunning sound perfect for rage powers.
Finally, you can tweak existing 1/rage powers to be a bit better. Perhaps double the bonus for powerful blow, etc.
In so doing, however, remember that starting at level 17, RAW barbarian can go:
Free action: Rage
Combat round: 1/rage powers
*opponent's turn*
Free action: End rage
Free action: Rage
Combat round: 1/rage powers
and so forth, ad nauseum.
Dude, I like your idea. I'm not totally unsatisfied, come on, hehe.
But I think that making them BETTER than the other melee classes (Fighter for instance) is not a fix, it's a mistake. That's all.
Maeloke post covers most of my concerns. And I still don't like the +D6 to damage mechanic.
I think you are on the right track, but you should ask your self, with the way you built the class, is it worth playing a fighter at all? Cause it' a comom mistake to "fix" things and make them way to powerful, and you should avoid that.
Dude, I like your idea. I'm not totally unsatisfied, come on, hehe.
But I think that making them BETTER than the other melee classes (Fighter for instance) is not a fix, it's a mistake. That's all.
Maeloke post covers most of my concerns. And I still don't like the +D6 to damage mechanic.
I think you are on the right track, but you should ask your self, with the way you built the class, is it worth playing a fighter at all? Cause it' a comom mistake to "fix" things and make them way to powerful, and you should avoid that.
I am trying to avoid it - why I keep revising and posting ;-)
On the Fighter, though - I've got a whole level of "abilities" that I'm going to add onto them as well. It's hard for you all to see it, but I'll post up my plans soon. The general idea was to (a) get something into the fighter class to compete w/spells and such in high-level effects. Not spell-like effects, mind you, but something to at least give fighters some additional *oompf* vs. the others. Even vs. the other melee types, while it's nice that they're best in to hit/damage right now (though I disagree on the damage end - should go to barbarians), they don't have instant allies of power (animal companions), can't cast spells at all, and beyond weapons and armor bring NOTHING to the table (poor skills, no HiPS, smite, favored enemies, rage, favored terrain, mercies, etc). (b) turn the fighter class into something of the "go to spot" in crafting ANY martial kind of concept and make it valid. Want a lightly armored fighter? Don't need a swashbuckler class - just take abilities x, y, and z and *poof* you've got the swashbuckler - follow?
So, point being - it may seem like this outshines the fighter, and that's ok for now. Keep pointing stuff out to me and I'll certainly adjust things as they come to my attention, but I also have a clear idea of where the fighter's options have been expanded quite a bit and that's really where I'm aiming for "balance" compared to the barbarian (the other melee-guys have plenty going on for them as it stands, so I'm less concerned with them. If anything, it's just about playing catch-up with the fighter and barbarian to get them up to par.
@Maeloke: On the clarification bit, you've basically got it down (minus including the con language and hp's). The only thing left off is the fast healing and rage damage in what you set down, otherwise - looks good to me and I'll probably go that rout (just because it's been rather tedious setting it all down on my end at multiple points).
DR vs. bonus HP's = good, but too many survival options = bad. Noted ... hmm ... so then how to adjust it?
Saves get a +1 and grow to +5, though (where's +3 coming from?) vs. the current one, this is a downgrade in the lowest tier, and an upgrade of +1 in the highest tier - I don't really see this as problematic. Plus, they always had the Fort and Will bonus going on (just the Fort was unstated as it went hand in hand with the Con).
The only thing I did was add in the reflex save bonus as a way to get the adrenaline effect of moving faster. I don't see it as a mockery of my promise to do away with the 6th sense effect as, as this point the bonus is delayed until pretty high level (ie: you can't rage and get the ref bonus for a LONG time in-class), and then it's only when in the rage - like all the other save effects - it's an empowerment/upgrade of the rage feature currently. It is still not as good as having full on good saves across the board (like a Monk). As it stands, that "6th sense for danger" and "mistrust of civilized contraptions" garbage has gone away with Trap Sense. It's not back ... AT ALL. ???confused???
If someone really wants to waste rage rounds for "healing" I can always hit 'em w/the DM smackdown of "NO!" Beyond that, though, we could just add a line item like so: "Barbarians can only rage in the presence of a clearly identified enemy that can be reasonably targeted and attacked." Problem solved (mostly). I HATE meta-game tactics like this, so thanks for pointing that out.
Fighter points with Barb dmg and wpn training = they cancel out as whatever the barb can do, the fighter can match. {ie: both can go 2-handed and no net gain here.}
On the others, I'll just do a bullet thing and toss in my fighter adjustments so you're at least aware of it a bit:
*DR == more HP/staying power I'll not forgo. That *is* the point of where the Barbarian should be - staying power and probably damage output. Don't forget that Fighter get DR 5/-- by level 19, so they have at least 1/2 as much of the same bonus as a level 20 barbarian. Beyond this, however, there is a fighter ability I'm working on to grant a bit of DR as well/in addition to this amount (actually before it as the last "ability" I have for fighters comes in by level 18)
*Combat Maneuver Options - no. fighter have more feats by far to dedicate to this, AND I also have something planned to give "maneuver-based fighters" a leg up on everyone as an ability, too. This barbarian, short of the rage power to grant +level to maneuver checks is NOT going to be better than a fighter at it. The fighter will have more maneuvers (via feat selection) and higher bonuses on maneuver checks than all other classes (IF they take that ability).
*On the Rage Damge - there are options there for fighter's to take that will grant them additional damage as well. They will still compete in the average range (in fact, better from levels 15-19 as the Barbarian's max gain doesn't come in until level 20). 3d6 damage - on average is +9. Rangers vs. their best enemies = +10 at that point (if geared this way), and Paladins = +20 (as long as smitable). The damage output at the high end seems to be a feature of EVERY martial class in some way, shape, or form. I made this more random vs. predictable/stead for the barbarians. They could get a +3 (and be negligible vs. any of the other melee types at level 20) or they could get a +18 (and still trail the Paladin). It seems perfectly fair and in-line with the other melee-types output to me.
On the other stuff - dropping the DR bonus Rage Power ... *might* make sense now. They've still got "natural" DR and could still qualify for the Feat's that do the same thing (and not need to worry about "rage only" status to gain a benefit that way). Easy enough - consider it dropped, honestly - plenty of stuff out there for them, and they're already more durable, so it serves little purpose within that framework now. Good observation!
Tweakage of the rage powers will be coming soon, but I'm trying to get the underlying 'base power' of the Barbarian where I like it, so then I can go and fine tune the rage powers to the power of this new class build.
I'm probably not going back to the original build at all, though. No ... definitely not. ;-)
On the level 17 meta-game tactics ... that's just crap. It was crap the first moment I heard it. I'll have to come up with something to outright prevent it. Not sure though, but THAT is a perfect example of how that wouldn't have been an issue at ALL in Beta, but now it's abusive. In Beta - it was all resource management, now, you can the "on/off" loophole, and that's just pure crap! It tosses out the whole idea of balance they attempted to put forth by limiting uses in the first place. Rage should be "on" until there's nothing left to swing at - honestly. If I need to go back to the 2e Berserker kit for that, I'll do it gladly. PC's will still have the option to drop out of a rage if they want, but then they will NOT be able to do it for "forcing the end" for quite some time maybe? Nah .. I don't know. Very rough thoughts there - mostly leading with outrage at such a meta-game strategy and the company failing to notice it before dropping the Beta rules.
It will get fixed, though ... that's for sure. No WAY I'm letting that abuse continue.
Edit: I just had the thought to total up damage potential that I'd allow (and expect or whatever) from a high-level fighter using this at my table. PF's backwards compatible, so I'd let most things in from 3.x (provided I had them clearly explained and thought it was ok anyway - mostly WoTC stuff vs. 3rd parties, though NO VOWS!!! That stuff's just garbage!). So, just with the feats from PHB II (first real expansion of Fighter ONLY feat chains), at level 20, using PF and allowing that stuff in, a fighter gets +4 to hit and damage from weapon training, auto-confirms his crits w/one weapon, and is immune to disarm attempts, as well as increases his crit multiplier with that weapon by 1. He has a +2 more to hit with the 2 wpn focus feats (+6 now), and +4 to damage (+8 dmg) from the specialization feats, then toss on Melee Weapon Mastery feat of a type matching his best weapon and another +2/+2 (+8/+10) and then toss on the Weapon Supremacy Feat for a +4 to disarms (irrelevant, so I'd change this to a +2 to CMB/CMD checks with this weapon in-hand), ability to wield the weapon against someone that grapple you w/out penalty and w/out making a grapple check. You can let 'em hold you and full attack 'em, or you can try to break free and make a standard action attack. When you take a full attack, you get a +5 to any 1 of the iterative attacks you choose to use it on, you can "take 10" on one attack roll 1/round, and you get a +1 to AC when the weapon is in-hand. So for a total of 6 feats, the fighter ends up FAR more dangerous in general with the amount of things he can bring to bear in terms of combat options. A barbarian just isn't going to match that ... they can mess with raw damage amounts, but the rest is fighter-exclusive status stuff. I wouldn't want that stuff on my barbarian, and I wouldn't want anyone but the fighter to look like that either. I'm just putting this up for the comparison vs. the barbarian - at that level, he can't get either of those feats up there, and he can be disarmed, he can not get an extra damage multiplier, and if he has the auto-crit power (as it now stands) it's 1/rage. If he gets in a grapple, he's as limited as everyone else (vs. a still full attacking fighter - who REALLY wants to be in that situation w/a fighter of THAT level?). The thing I'm looking at is that the fighter IS powerful, but in different ways. Damage, though, should go to the barbarian *on average* and that's not even true with those feats above. The fighter's getting a +8 to hit (vs. +5 for the Barb) and a +10 to dmg reliably (vs. +9 average for the barb that can end up better or worse, btw).
I guess, since it's come up a few time, I wanted to run the #'s and really look it over ... and with that level of rage damage, at those levels they come into play, it's really just keeping the barbarians competitive with the other melee guys, not surpassing them.
"Barbarians can only rage in the presence of a clearly identified enemy that can be reasonably targeted and attacked."
So if a barbarian tribe attacks a village, they cannot rage while in the streets looking for targets if they dont find a target?
I think that should be more like "Barbarians can only rage in a stressful or combat situation where life threatening danger for him or someone dear (Lets not forget the "berserker rage" when someone dear to you is killed by the BBEG) is clerarly identificable or at least Possible"
Mmm, this surely needs a re write ´cause english is not my main language, but you get the idea, by the quoted condition, you are banning the barbs to rage while in danger, to save the party from being crushed under a big rock, etc.-
Edit: syntax and typos
"Barbarians can only rage in the presence of a clearly identified enemy that can be reasonably targeted and attacked."So if a barbarian tribe attacks a village, they cannot rage while in the streets looking for targets if they dont find a target?
I think that should be more like "Barbarians can only rage in a stressful or combat situation where life threatening danger for him or someone dear (Lets not forget the "berserker rage" when someone dear to you is killed by the BBEG) is clerarly identificable or at least Possible"
Mmm, this surely needs a re write ´cause english is not my main language, but you get the idea, by the quoted condition, you are banning the barbs to rage while in danger, to save the party from being crushed under a big rock, etc.-
Edit: syntax and typos
Sure - that's just the first attempt at it, and like the build, will certainly need revisions and refinement for clarity. Intent-wise, you're spot on for where I would want it to work/operate/etc.
In that situation, though - a raid where you stared and could see enemies would certainly allow the rage be "on" in the first place. Wandering streets for a few rounds = you *could* power down as there was no clear threat. In all common sense, *would* you? Probably not - you're in the middle of a fraggin' RAID, so why would you?
No - it's mostly needing to be phrased so as to cut out the meta-game nature of the fast healing piece in the rage state.
Or ... maybe Fast Healing just needs to go? I'm not sure right now. That meta-game potential really bugs me.
I think the name should be changed to berserker. The class is about berserk rages. A barbarian is someone uncivilized, perhaps wild, and that is no longer (necessarily) true of members of this class.
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Or ... maybe Fast Healing just needs to go? I'm not sure right now. That meta-game potential really bugs me.
This is a knot I haven't quite figured out either wrt healing while in rage. On the one hand, the meta-game bleeds through if you allow barbarians to enter rage solely to heal. On the other hand, I am not a fan of ultra-cheap wands of CLW that get used up on a daily basis.
Have you considered the possibility of only being able to heal damage inflicted on you while in that rage? Probably adds unneeded tracking of hit point sources, but if someone could elegantly make that work I'd be very interested.
The more I think about DR versus a CON boost, the more I like it. I'm not sold yet, but I'm warm to the idea. I also particularly like your implementation of fast recovery as a midpoint before tireless rage.
I think what Maeloke's getting at with your "sixth sense" conversation is something I thought of too in your earlier versions but I didn't bring up. You've effectively chosen one of the "sixth sense" aspects of the barbarian (trap sense) and removed it. Which is fine, but there are other powers that also seem like "sixth sense" options: the evasion, preternatural reflexes, uncanny dodge stuff. You like those better, so you decide to keep 'em in.
Your thinking about these powers shows that you have chosen to separate trap sense as a unique application of "sixth sense" that is different from the reflex/dexterity stuff you leave in. I'm not sure everybody follows that line of thought, or if they do, that they agree with it.
From my point of view, I think adding evasion to the barbarian starts to add that ability to one too many classes. Rogues, rangers, monks, some PrC's, and your barbarians now get it. It seems to lose a little bit of its coolness if every lightly-armored class gets a piece of the evasion pie.
Anyway, I'm continuing to follow these developments with interest. I'm pretty interested in the thought process that goes into class writeups and modifications.
best,
-eric
As raidou said, my issue with the bonus to reflex saves is that it's very thinly justified, and given that you profess to being against the barbarian's uncanny nimbleness, it feels like it's just there to remove one of the character's few weaknesses - low reflex saves. I'm very much in favor of will and fortitude save bonuses in rage, though I think your changes from the RAW progression on that front are not particularly beneficial. Incidentally, I pulled the "+3 to saves" from the tier where you start giving the bonus to reflex as well as the other two.
As for your progressions: I would vastly prefer to go with the RAW +2/+3/+4 on saves and +4/+6/+8 on strength, over your +1-5 saves and +2-10 strength. That RAW barbarian is strictly better than yours from levels 1-4, and tied for most of his career. That yours peaks slightly higher at level 20 is poor return for being strictly worse in the levels when you are most fragile. In fact, I don't think it's even worth raging at those levels - +2 strength and DR 1 for -2 AC? Yuck. You do *not* want an absolutely essential class mechanic to be unappealing until level 5.
Regarding maneuvers: Whether you address it or not, your barbarian nets a +5 to all combat maneuvers and his CMD from his class alone, never mind his 1/rage +lvl to CMB power, or the bonus for his silly bite attack. A fighter can try to catch up on one maneuver by spending 2 feats for a +4... meaning he's still worse at it, and has spent 1/5th of his class's resources to be that way. A barbarian who chooses to specialize (and face it, once you have iron will, power attack, and vital strike, what else do you spend your feats on?) can get himself up to a ridiculous +9 to most maneuvers, and sometimes +11 for grapple, and can auto-succeed on a maneuver check once per rage (i.e. 1/round after lvl 17).
Now, allow me to explain my issue with the damage bonus: A fighter maxes, with weapon training, double focus, and double specialization, at +6 to hit/+8 to damage. Two-handing has no bearing on specialization or weapon training, meaning that it's *not* the same thing as a barbarian adding half again his increased strength. This means that on strength alone, your barbarian caps at +5/+5 or +5/+7... very nearly matching a fighter's level 20 cap. Thats fine, but then suggesting that the barbarian should *also* get +3d6 to his damage is preposterous. At that point, he's clearly beating the fighter for damage, and handily outdamaging a rogue. He's beating rangers' favored enemy damage bonus unless the ranger's poured every advancement against one foe... while the barbarian does his increased damage to everything he can hit with his axe. Same comment about target options goes for paladins.
We all like barbarians, but you simply can't make them better than everyone at everything. Setting them to be #1 for durability is fine, but you can't take that, and then make them the best damage dealers in the game as well.
Fast healing: It's a terrible mechanic to have in the barbarian progression. As a level 20 capstone, full-time fast healing 5 would be cute and none too powerful. Prior, however, it does nothing but muddy gameplay while doing the same thing that you'd accomplish with increased DR. Got hit for 15? DR 5 away, fast heal 5, you net 5 damage... or you could just DR 10 away and save the extra math.
Seriously, consider going back to the original barbarian template, starting their DR at level 1, and doubling it during rage. Your templates and progressions would be much, much cleaner, and the bulk of your more minor modifications could fall into the much simpler format of rage powers. Given that RAW barbarian gets twice the rage powers yours does, he'll be more than able to pick up all your abilities if he wants them, plus some extra ones for flavor and fun.
Have you considered the possibility of only being able to heal damage inflicted on you while in that rage? Probably adds unneeded tracking of hit point sources, but if someone could elegantly make that work I'd be very interested.
Hmmm ... maybe. I think it would be simple enough - you just ask "what's your HP" at the beginning of the rage and then, if somehow Fast Healing would increase that (unlikely, IMO, given the small values involved), then it's ignored, or heals only to that point.
I don't know, that, then, seems arbitrarily tossed upon them - you have the class feature, but part of it's use is fundamentally hampered (ie: just the root concept of healing quickly) in a way that's almost completely based around meta-game. Hmm ... Yeah. Tough one to balance here.
The more I think about DR versus a CON boost, the more I like it. I'm not sold yet, but I'm warm to the idea. I also particularly like your implementation of fast recovery as a midpoint before tireless rage.
Cool, and thanks! Mostly, what I like about the DR, is that it's simple and easy to implement. It changes almost nothing (compared to the fast healing meta-problems).
... but there are other powers that also seem like "sixth sense" options: the evasion, preternatural reflexes, uncanny dodge stuff. You like those better, so you decide to keep 'em in.
Ok, well, I can respond to those. It's more than "you like those better ..." though. ;-)
1) Evasion got dropped - it's not there anymore.2) Preternatural Reflexes - it's mid-high level when it comes into play, and is part of an "upgrade" in the rage power progression (the focus of the build, really). It's not at all "6th sense" by intent, so much as an "amped up adrenalin factor". It's just a proven/known thing that people with a lot of adrenalin pumping through them move and react much faster than normal. So ... being as that's like 90% of the reason behind the power, I figured I'd give the "fast reactions" element of that in that mid-range as a bump. I don't see it like a 6th sense at all, though. {If anything, this would make the *most* sense by including it as an overall save-boon from the get right there with Fort and Will ... but I was looking more towards meta-game issues in placing it vs. power/rationality}
3) Uncanny Dodge - again, seemed to make sense given their focus on combat and such. I'm not sure I'm sold on it for even Rogues as "6th sense" so much as a "situational awareness" of whatever you're in at the moment. There were a few Feats in 3.x that granted similar, but reduced elements of the uncanny dodge, so maybe that's also helped color my perception there - if you can get it *almost* through Feats, it's not all that unusual {exceptions abound, of course, but still}. At the same time, when I was stripping out things I didn't like, I first just made a copy and paste of the grid and such - then I started removing things in my word program. What I was left with were the 3 rage states, rage powers, DR, and Tireless Rage along with Indomnitable Will ... there was like nothing left, so I left Uncanny Dodge in there, partly for legacy, but mostly just to keep something still in there.
I'm not sure everybody follows that line of thought, or if they do, that they agree with it.
Yeah - that might be it. I hope they read my comments and follow the thoughts behind it now, though.
From my point of view, I think adding evasion to the barbarian starts to add that ability to one too many classes. Rogues, rangers, monks, some PrC's, and your barbarians now get it. It seems to lose a little bit of its coolness if every lightly-armored class gets a piece of the evasion pie.
Well, evasion not there anymore (mettle is, but then, it would be the ONLY class with that ability, which I think is nice).
I just generally didn't want them to have an "evasion"-like effect for every save, and I figured they had plenty going for them with the addition of the Ref. save to the rage save boost effect. It was enough at that, so it was easy enough to remove.
Save wise in general, the rage has been nerfed in the lowest levels and gains Ref application at the middle and gets a +1 at the highest (level 20), so I'm not sure that they have saves like a monk or step on his/her toes that much. Their overall save bonus is not enough to close the gap of good saves across the board. Plus, these saves are "morale bonuses" {this would be my default understanding of the way PF changed the type now, and since these are straight additions to save vs. ability additions now, it leaves them as morale type across the board - also makes it more simple to handle if it's all the same bonus type, IMO). This would mean that a bard or something can't really "inspire" anything out of these guys - they'd get more benefit from their own morale effect, and so would use it instead - totally fine, IMO, and a complete tradeoff that the Monk doesn't need to make at all.
Hmm ... I was just considering another idea - what if the AC penalty was also increasing as the rage-impulses just got stronger? Say, you start at a -1 to AC, and increase another -1 at every rage-state level? Would *that* be a more fair trade to those thinking it's too much?
Hmm ... board ate my post. I'll be much more brief here - don't take it offensively or anything, though.
1) Reflex bonus on saves: there is plenty of precedent for adrenaline quickening peoples reaction times and speed in general. There is no precedent for some magical "trap sense" that lets you jump out of the way faster, or be a harder target just because it's a trap. The one seems reasonable, the other is crazy-talk!
2) ability progressions: they're not designed in isolation. You gotta look at the whole package there. And the level 20 capstone "package" of my level actually at least feels worthy of capstone compared to the original.
3) Maneuvers: this is THE most interesting point you make because ... it has NOTHING to do with my rebuild. I think you've finally discovered (mechanically anyway, if not the designer's intent) the ONLY thing Barbarian's are better at than anyone else: maneuvers. Everything you state is true of the base class barbarian as it currently exists. My +1 bump from +4 to +5 at level 20 hardly has any impact at all on all of your points for this little feature.
4) Damage: every class has trade-offs for what they're doing with their damage boons. Fighter's are consistent and predictably high, Paladins are situationally the highest, followed by a fully focused ranger (which I'm likely to mess around with a bit anyway), and then the barbarian ... he can put up some damage, pretty reasonably, but is overshadowed by everyone in nearly every condition. He needs to have something that's his, and that's what I did. The die-roll means different chaotic damage results - it could be low, it could be high, but if he plays to the middle (as is most "average") then he can at least hang with the fighter -- mostly.
5) Fast Healing as the capstone addition may very well solve the whole issue, IMO! I can't imagine meta-gaming FH of 5 is going to be all that useful when damage in 1 round can be in the 200-300 range by then. Good, good, good idea!!!
6) No WAY I'm going back to the original and relying on rage powers to fix things. The RAW barbarian gets 10 rage powers to the 7 of my build, but mine remains more durable and useful overall.
New Point: I did address maneuvers and damage for fighters as *I* will address things to add to the class and put that up. If you want to ignore it, fine, but that's still where I'm aiming my balance. :shrugs:
I may not like some of the things you are doing in your re-vision (this isn't my revision any way), but please use Google Documents. Linky thing isn't working here is the address:
https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=writely&passive=tr ue&nui=1&continue=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2F%3Fhl%3Den%26tab%3 Dwo%26pli%3D1&followup=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2F%3Fhl%3Den%26tab% 3Dwo%26pli%3D1<mpl=homepage&rm=false
This allows you to not only copy paste it from your text doc, with keeping format, but also update it!
I certainly grant you adrenaline commonly lets a person react more quickly to events. What doesn't necessarily follow is that the barbarian's rage comes from adrenaline, or that this needs to be represented with rules. This game is not a strictly factual pursuit, and your efforts to mimic life are making the class *too good*. Sometimes common sense must be sacrificed on the altar of game balance.
I'm aware ability progressions are not designed in isolation, and I'm attempting to consider the whole. What you're doing is not considering the balance at individual levels. Explain to me how your +2 str/-2 AC is a selling point for the 1st level barbarian, and try not to include "but it gets better at high levels".
<<EDIT: Oh, perhaps you mean for barbarians to get +d6 bonus damage while raging at first level. I blame your wonky revision narrative :P>>
The funny thing about damage tradeoffs is that your barbarian doesn't make any. Sure, an individual bonus might be as low as +2-3 damage, but damage calculations are not a matter of single shots - they're a matter of averages. Averages say your barbarian completely outdamages fighters, the supposed baseline for consistent damage vs. all targets. Rangers are vastly limited by creature types, rogues have to situate themselves properly, and paladins can only wail on evil creatures. The barbarian has none of these restrictions, and thus sacrifices nothing for his added damage. Especially at higher levels when the barbarian can expect to rage for the entirety of every combat, this is completely unbalanced.
This wholly disregards the fact that bonus rage damage on top of bonus strength is redundant and counterintuitive. Every other class that gets a flat bonus to strikes does so out of special knowledge, magic, or precision. Any of those sound barbaric to you? Didn't think so. No, what your rules represent is the barbarian getting soooo angry that he swings his axe harder than he is strong.
That. Is. Silly.
Now, my other point about maneuvers wasn't meant to be a big revelation about your build. What I'm saying is that barbarians already have some very potent advantages, which you appear to be disregarding in your efforts to give them more power.
About my suggestion of using the original barbarian progression: Total rebuilds are fine if you're suggesting a fundamental change in the class, but all you're doing is tweaking abilities that already exist. For some reason, you're acting like this is cause for throwing the progression through a blender, resulting in a concoction that's completely removed of the somewhat balanced RAW barbarian. If you're not reinventing the sharp rock, don't go smashing it to pieces just because you can.
Of the actual new powers you're suggesting: Unfazeable, Indefatigueable Stamina, preternatural reflexes, mettle, fast recovery, inexhaustible endurance, and fueled by fury, most already mimic effects to be found in the rage powers. The ones that don't either don't belong in a barbarian progression anyhow, or are perfectly acceptable for being spliced into the RAW progression.
Preternatural reflexes should go, for the reasons I've indicated, and fast recovery + mettle work fine in the base progression. Of the others, unfazeable, stamina, and endurance should really take cue from a rage power Paizo already made:
In short: just make improved versions of roused anger. The 3 rage powers your build chucks out the window could just as easily be roused anger +1, +2, and +3: Immunity to stunning, fatigue, and exhaustion while raging.
@Maeloke: I'm really not sure how to take you as the discussion seems to have turned into talking down or even beratement/badgering. I'll leave it to you to set the tone, but I'll assume it's a tone-translation thing rather than getting into anything. You keep coming back to "it's fine as it is, leave it alone" and that is clearly not where I'm going. You're open to try it your way, though - I've no interest in that line and I've expressed this several times already. To me, it's akin to burying your head in the sand and hoping it'll sort itself out. Let me reiterate, this is not an attack, or anything, but at this point it feels like badgering from your end. :shrugs:
To wit - your points ...
1) Ok, +2 str is a selling point because with no buffing from anyone, you can get a +1 to hit and damage on your own. You're still reckless, though, so the -2 to AC is a tradeoff ... AND you get to have a DR of 1 at level 1 - no one else gets to do this - at all. This is the low levels, too, where something like this, coupled with the D12 HD really can have a significant impact.
2) Damage tradeoffs ... the barbarian sacrifices Heavy Armor, and he's entirely dependent upon his Rage to be really effective. If anything happens to negate that somehow (say hit 'em w/a fatigue/exhaustion or something before raging - even ANY weak save before entering the rage [bonuses only come when IN the rage remember]) he's totally boned. He'll be out of his rage capability - probably for the full duration of whatever's happening, so all of his rage powers become useless (unless he's taken Roused Anger, and that's only useful 1/rage - however THAT works ???), he can't get his str bonuses, and is in every way far, FAR sub-par to a Fighter. If a fighter gets hit with something like that, maybe he'll be weaker. But a barbarian hit with this is not only weaker, but the VAST majority of his class features are unusable for that entire encounter. My upgrades are all about "rage only" and always on while in the rage - it's very much in danger of the very same situations, so still it sacrifices for full focus upon one method/style of combat. Sure, when using it, it's pretty good, but when outside of that, it's much, MUCH more vulnerable. All it takes is one lost initiative and *poof* the whole class feature goes away. In general, this is an interesting thing to consider, so I'll be looking over it for more specific "trade off" conditions regarding damage overall.
3) Existing damage bonuses are not the same thing as what I was after, save, perhaps, magic - a small degree maybe to explain how/why they hit so hard. Although the mechanic is familiar, that does not mean the power or function itself is intended to be. And "silly"? Really? You realize this is D&D, right? 'nuff said.
4) Maneuvers are highly situational in use and utility. The only real bonus I see is that it'll help IF you decide you'd like to do this, and it's hard for others to do this to you. Honestly, though, it's so marginal, IMO, that it's hardly worthy of notice other than to point out how drastically it works from 3.x to PF.
5) NOT going back to the original class ... at all.
Huh, why not situational and very big damage bonuses for when you make single attacks, like when you charge?
This could work as well - make barbarians into the situational "charge damage" kings ... maybe change "rage damage" to "charge damage" and start it again at level 1 w/the first base rage, but always restrict this bonus damage to 'charge only' in nature ... it's an idea to ponder.
Thanks!
OH! Thought of something else barbarians sacrifice - AC in rage. They make themselves more vulnerable and exposed in combat. Surely, THAT should count for something? Any other classes intentionally get terrible AC's for some reason? Key ability feature?
I think this might have been lost in the heat, BUT what about scaling the AC penalty that comes with the rage according to the save bonuses? Essentially, as they get stronger and more durable, they outright expose themselves more recklessly. So, AC would progressively get WORSE for them as they advance in levels? This would drive home even more, IMO, the tradeoff they make for the amazing damage potential they reap from it. By level 20, they're -5 in AC lower than what any other build/melee type should have by rights! They're going to get hit more often now - clearly.
Fast Healing is a very powerful ability. Don't forget it negates bleed damage, so, beware of that.
I would like very much to change the barbarian, and you said something about changing the fighter to encompas the new battle superiority of the barbarian... wouldn't that start a domino effect thing where you would have to upgrade ALL classes, classes that are already upgraded from the previous system? I mean, Barbarians DO need a twink, but as said earlier, if not done with care, they will become the best of the best there.
Fast Healing is a very powerful ability. Don't forget it negates bleed damage, so, beware of that.
I would like very much to change the barbarian, and you said something about changing the fighter to encompas the new battle superiority of the barbarian... wouldn't that start a domino effect thing where you would have to upgrade ALL classes, classes that are already upgraded from the previous system? I mean, Barbarians DO need a twink, but as said earlier, if not done with care, they will become the best of the best there.
Aah, yes that was a point I tried to make earlier but it behooves reiteration, and perhaps is a key disagreement I have with your stated goals. Barbarians aren't really about being tough I don't think. If people want a meatshield they can roll paladins or fighters.
Barbarians seem to be about "rargh damage" from the mimetic impression I get from sources external to Pathfinder. And as the engineer's quandry goes, there are 3 variables, pick two, out of the three variables, tough, damage and fast, I'd go for damage and fast, which essentially makes them kind of like a rogue, but more face bitey. Or like a monk, er if they did any worthwhile damage or status effects.
Or... as some would put it DPS class...
I like them tough and "damagy", but the way Speaker is going so far is too tough and too damagy, without even goin on the added impervious saves.
Bleed didn't even cross my mind in any of this, actually ... Hmm ... I'm still liking the level 20 "capstone" status for Fast Healing anyway (just to avoid the strange things).
I would state "battle superiority" more like "damage superiority" for barbarian if this gets to where I want it to be. It's all development, so just keep tossing out comments - more specific = better in general, and it's stuff I can use to refine.
On the "amping up of fighters" bit - do you really think that, outside of damage dealing (new PF upgrade) there is anything marginally interesting about the class? Or that they are even capable of hangin' and bangin' with wizards and the like? Or clerics? Or Paladins?
The thing is every other class is ALREADY way better than Fighters (much like Barbarians since the post-Beta nerf on rage points). The only thing I'm doing with fighters will be to add something to the class to make it more adaptable and fitting to hit ALL flavors of combat fighters (minus the barbarians/wild fighter types). Essentially, what I'm going to add to them will add depth to the "fighter" concept beyond just + to damage and hit. It's an attempt to hit/encompass more "fighting styles" than anything else. It adds options to them, shores up a deficiency overall in the class (ie: hit stuff and quit), and gives them a "one stop shop" kind of approach for making all kinds of fighters more valid in a way that simple feat selection and existing rules can't really cover. I'll post that stuff up maybe later tonight, but know that those and this barbarian redesign are meant to pair up to each other relatively well.
Also, if Barbarian's aren't reliably tough, why are they the only class in 3.x with d12 HD and an innate DR ability? That's, really, about the only "unique" thing they had that was theirs. PF came along, upgraded everyone big time, and now Fighter's get DR at 19th level (as long as they're armored or with a shield ... like that's an issue by that high a level? WTF!?!? And it's directly equal to the Barbarians = completely stole that thunder from the class). Paladin's get DR 10/Evil --- OMG!!! It's double the DR and is keyed off of a feature that is not all that often encountered. THAT steals the Barbarian's thunder (again). The monk has DR 10/magic (even in 3.x), but at level 20 - that's about the MOST pointless upgrade I've ever seen. What, at that level is NOT magic?
No - Barbarian's are definitely the "tough guys" with the d12 for hd and the DR as a class feature, in addition to the con boost and bonus HP (even if it was an ugly implication tucked away in there). In 3.x they did have a damage bonus better than all other melee-types, not so now. so that's also why I'm partially attempting to make some sort of dmg-boost for them as we go.
What about the idea of the -to AC getting worse as the class moves up in level as a balancing factor to add into the mix? Thoughts?
@Maeloke: I'm really not sure how to take you as the discussion seems to have turned into talking down or even beratement/badgering. I'll leave it to you to set the tone, but I'll assume it's a tone-translation thing rather than getting into anything. You keep coming back to "it's fine as it is, leave it alone" and that is clearly not where I'm going. You're open to try it your way, though - I've no interest in that line and I've expressed this several times already. To me, it's akin to burying your head in the sand and hoping it'll sort itself out. Let me reiterate, this is not an attack, or anything, but at this point it feels like badgering from your end. :shrugs:
Apologies. I feel like you're refusing to engage the points I'm attempting to make, which is marginally frustrating when you're the one putting your class variant up on the board for criticism. I'm all for changing the class and I've said as much. What I don't see, and what you have not addressed, is why your rebuild requires throwing out what is clearly a heavily tested, more-or-less balanced progression in favor of your purely experimental one.
Ah, well. It's your project, do as you like.
1) Ok, +2 str is a selling point because with no buffing from anyone, you can get a +1 to hit and damage on your own. You're still reckless, though, so the -2 to AC is a tradeoff ... AND you get to have a DR of 1 at level 1 - no one else gets to do this - at all. This is the low levels, too, where something like this, coupled with the D12 HD really can have a significant impact.
I'm with you on the DR. Remember, I was suggesting just giving the barbarian DR 1/- at level 1 even outside of rage, and then doubling it to 2/- during rage. The point I was trying to make about the strength was that +1 to hit and +1 to damage is not very compelling as an iconic class ability to get people excited to play a level 1 barbarian - never mind you're taking -2 to your AC to do it. Perhaps you primarily intend this progression for higher level play, though, and this is not an issue for you.
2) Damage tradeoffs ... the barbarian sacrifices Heavy Armor, and he's entirely dependent upon his Rage to be really effective. If anything happens to negate that somehow (say hit 'em w/a fatigue/exhaustion or something before raging - even ANY weak save before entering the rage [bonuses only come when IN the rage remember]) he's totally boned. He'll be out of his rage capability - probably for the full duration of whatever's happening, so all of his rage powers become useless (unless he's taken Roused Anger, and that's only useful 1/rage - however THAT works ???), he can't get his str bonuses, and is in every way far, FAR sub-par to a Fighter.
Well this is a surprising line of argument. I've never heard someone argue for a barbarian's weakness due to the need to activate rage. It's a free action, and the only relevant restriction on it is that you can't enter rage while fatigued or exhausted. How often is an opponent's very first attack to fatigue the barbarian? And how often does the barbarian then *fail* the fort save against the effect?
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I'm genuinely curious - did you actually read Roused Anger? It says "The barbarian may enter rage even when he is fatigued, and ignores fatigue during his rage". Where is this 1/rage thing coming from? How is it confusing? As far as I can tell, it's often better than your indefatigueable stamina ability, since it lets the barbarian rage enter rage when he's already tired.
Now otherwise, I think you're alluding to save-or-die effects here that otherwise prevent the barbarian from taking actions, including entering rage. This argument is null; a first-round Hold Person takes a rogue or fighter or ranger out of a fight just as effectively as a barbarian. Saying that "Oh, but he's weak when he's not raging" is the wrong point to make, because so is every other class with a poor will save, and they're weak all the time. The barbarian, lucky fellow, actually has a bonus against this sort of thing in his ramped up will saves while raging. As an added bonus, he has damage reduction for soaking attacks made on him when he's helpless, which makes him substantially better off than pretty much every other class in this situation.
If a fighter gets hit with something like that, maybe he'll be weaker. But a barbarian hit with this is not only weaker, but the VAST majority of his class features are unusable for that entire encounter. My upgrades are all about "rage only" and always on while in the rage - it's very much in danger of the very same situations, so still it sacrifices for full focus upon one method/style of combat. Sure, when using it, it's pretty good, but when outside of that, it's much, MUCH more vulnerable. All it takes is one lost initiative and *poof* the whole class feature goes away. In general, this is an interesting thing to consider, so I'll be looking over it for more specific "trade off" conditions regarding damage overall.
Again, this situation where someone gets the jump on the party and then, of all things, slams the barbarian with an exhaustion effect is just otherworldly to me. If someone (spellcaster) beats your party's initiative, yes, life sucks! Oftentimes someone has to make a save or be taken out of the fight before they've had an action. The barbarian is not special in this vulnerability.
Now, what I was proposing was that you introduce a rage power that says "you may rage while exhausted. You ignore exhaustion during your rage". This is, in all practical ways, identical to your inexhaustible endurance ability. See, I genuinely think it's a good option to make available. I just think it would be fine as an *optional* ability for those who are especially concerned about ambush fatigue wizards, rather than a mandatory "every barbarian must be immune to condition X" thing. Suppose I am not concerned with fatigue. I would rather my barbarian have the extra rage power to bite people. Who are you to take that option away? ;)
3) Existing damage bonuses are not the same thing as what I was after, save, perhaps, magic - a small degree maybe to explain how/why they hit so hard. Although the mechanic is familiar, that does not mean the power or function itself is intended to be. And "silly"? Really? You realize this is D&D, right? 'nuff said.
Aw, I'm just saying that "The barbarian gets a bit stronger, but then hits *much* stronger" is a bit weird. Why split your damage bonuses into two when you've got a perfectly workable mechanic already there for the class: extra strength! If you want to ramp up the barbarian's damage, try starting him at +6 strength and going to +12 or something.
4) Maneuvers are highly situational in use and utility. The only real bonus I see is that it'll help IF you decide you'd like to do this, and it's hard for others to do this to you. Honestly, though, it's so marginal, IMO, that it's hardly worthy of notice other than to point out how drastically it works from 3.x to PF.
Okay, I'm getting that maneuvers aren't so popular in your games. They'll tend to be like that until someone figures out that slapping an Enlarge Person on the barbarian or monk with Greater Grapple is game over for any solo enemy smaller than huge.
Trust me, that bonus to combat maneuvers is brutal.
5) NOT going back to the original class ... at all.
And I'm hardly saying you absolutely have to. It's just, you know, a decent option. I guess if you intend to be intractable on this point, that's your call.
One reason I think he reduced the Str bonus at level 1 is due to how attractive the barbarian is for a one level dip:
You get, +1 BAB, +10 Move, 4 skill points, good skills, medium armor, martial weapons, and the ability for 4+rounds per day to free action buff your strength and con (currently)
That's a lot to get compared to say 1 extra feat and heavy armor.
One reason I think he reduced the Str bonus at level 1 is due to how attractive the barbarian is for a one level dip:
You get, +1 BAB, +10 Move, 4 skill points, good skills, medium armor, martial weapons, and the ability for 4+rounds per day to free action buff your strength and con (currently)
That's a lot to get compared to say 1 extra feat and heavy armor.
Man though Abe, now they're getting +1 bab, fast movement 10, 4 skill points, martial weapons, medium armor, plus 4+ rounds of +2 str, DR 1/-, and +1d6 to all melee damage. I can't see that it's any less appealing of a dip.
The rage dice don't start until "the upper levels"... read the under the hood notes heck since it isn't really even in the progression it looks more like a separate idea on the side to me.
You'll get +2 str, DR 1/- 4 skills 10 movement etc etc etc.
yes it's still a lot, but not as much as before (DR 1/- is nice, but past about level 3 it's not going to amount to much at all after all how many people do you see taking adamantine armor).
Ah, right you are.
Ew. Definitely not an attractive dip any more.
What do you think, is +2 str and DR 1/- worth -2 AC at levels 1-4? I'm not sold on it.
I think the name should be changed to berserker. The class is about berserk rages. A barbarian is someone uncivilized, perhaps wild, and that is no longer (necessarily) true of members of this class.
Really? Why? What's missing to make this "uncivilized" or "wild" somehow? {For that matter, what was there before?}
The skill list has been unchanged, as has been the skill points/level.
I've been pondering this one for a bit, but I'm really not seeing where it's coming from. Any explanation/insight would be nice, though ...
Speaker, i liked your idea, make the rage dmg bonus "precision" based and cirscuntantial (I.e: charge damg bonus) and im with maeloke about raising the starting rage str.-
Regarding the level stat bonus and the reduction - yes, the "dip" factor was something I was hoping to address. Like most classes, I wanted this one to be about the full 20-level progression, and that means constant and worthwhile gains in advancement if you stick with it. More than anything else, I think that's been the primary drive/focus.
However, with feedback and criticism, I've been steadily maintaining that focus and direction and then attempting to dial back on whatever is "too far out" as it's come up. (as long as it doesn't compromise the design philosophies or goals - like saying there's nothing wrong with the current PF build)
@Maeloke: Hmm .. on the "why" that was put up in the first two versions I believe. I dropped it (assuming, wrongfully apparently) that anyone commenting was following along. Apologies, but take a look at the very top of either of the first two and you should get the 'why do this?' part clearly enough.
On the ignoring your comments - I did not. I addressed them, and explained why I'm not interested in those options ... yet you kept coming back right to them, only more forcefully. I appreciate you pointing it out ... once. Insistence approaches badgering, however, and was equally annoying on my end.
Dropping 'always on' DR to level 1 seems ... interesting, but probably a bit much. I was trying to tone down the level dip effect there, so I'm not sure it'll help much.
Regarding the "line of defense" I hear the part of them almost always having enough "rage" to go around. IMO, I think that may be part of the problem. Again, IMO, this is like a relic of one very well thought out reimaging of the power (Beta's Rage Points) that has not fared well in the final release execution. When Rage was all about 1 point to enter and maintain, and then the other rage powers were usable as needed - as long as you paid for it w/rage points, the system was beautiful. You could rage like a complete berserker ... and burn your capacity to maintain that rage. In the quest for simplicity that the final release followed, they greatly reduced the utility of rage powers from "as needed and as able to be to funded" to marginal utility (actions for activation and 1/rage or other, similarly restricted use nerfs). So, when I'm looking at this, I see a system designed for Beta with Beta's assumptions still there - completely intact, but now it's messing with mechanics that Beta's design was not intended to handle (rounds of rage, for instance). In the upper levels, you have exactly your complaint "too many rounds of access" basically. So ... this actually makes me think that maybe the class could do with a revision to how the rounds are calculated outright. Of course, the Extra Rage feat is there and, given the changes from Beat-final, is a really, REALLY good feat for a barbarian to take. It's probably the ONLY part of the "barbarian final" that was designed with the final release in mind, honestly.
Thanks for pointing that out, though - now to look it over.
Problems w/roused anger - yes, you can do it while fatigued (though not exhausted), and IF you do, you end exhausted and are out for 10 minutes/1 ROUND of rage. It's a heavy, HEAVY penalty to work with if it's your final battle period, fine - won't have an effect. If you're just getting going, this is major in restriction/activation. The fatigue immunity is granted, but ONLY if you use this first (which means you're fatigued up front, and then you use it, and then you deal with the cripplingly long recovery time).
If you've not followed the other threads, you've missed part of the progression. I originally targeted 3 spells that would provide those effects and just made a blanket immunity to THOSE spells up front. It was later suggested that to target the condition would be, mechanically, more simple, and I agreed. The problem with the spells in question is that they work with NO save at all! NONE! In addition, 2 are area of effect spells that will instantly work with NO SAVE! These are major spells, IMO, for de-buffing and flat out neutering ANYONE in the AoE. Fatigue reduces your actions and movement abilities. Exhausted does the same and with even more crippling options and stat penalties. Those are very good spells, and for everyone else, it's just a problem. For a barbarian, it prevents the use of his ONE class feature if he's not already using it. The immunities are designed around that idea - to keep the barbarian raging, and not get screwed out of his power boons. I didn't want to screw spell casters, either, so if this happens before a barbarian can get the rage off, they're ok ... BUT Barbarians now have Mettle, so this would grant them a save (where otherwise targets are not able to), and they can avoid the effects entirely, or deal with some reduced effects if they blow the save. However, with the immunity in rage, and the mettle effect I want them to have a chance to be able to use their powers (as those particular spells can spell doom to their abilities otherwise).
Many things could *probably* go into a rage power function, but I'd much rather not make it situational or dependent upon a particular barbarians' rage power selection. If barbarian's want to bite people - go for it, they've got 7, fully open rage powers. Who says I'm denying that?
On the bonuses, again - check the earlier threads. It was more or less universally panned that extra stat gains on those really high levels was a bad idea. So ... stat gain was dialed back and rage damage entered the picture.
Maneuvers - yes, I'm aware of the bonus of Enlarge Person. Maneuvers still remain highly situationally useful.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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Speaker, I wanted to run something by you wrt your "Unfazeable" ability which kicks in at 4th level.
The stunned condition seems pegged in the PF game as a high-level condition. The low-level applications of stun are: Monks' stunning fist, color spray, and sound burst. Then all of a sudden there is a giant level gap until stun effects start showing up again.
Feats: Stunning Critical (17th level minimum)
Spells: power word, stun (1d4 to 4d4 rounds, HP-dependent), scintillating pattern (1d4 rounds), clenched fist (1 round), greater shout (1 round), symbol of stunning (1d6 rounds), weird (1 round),
word of chaos (1 round).
Monsters: astral deva (1d6 round stun), horned devil (1d4 round stun), nymph (2d4 rounds), vrock (1 round), and the planetar, solar, balor, glabrezu, pit fiend (power word stun SLA).
3.5 monsters: 3.5 mindflayer (king of stunning at 3d4 rounds),
3.5 frost worm (duration of trill +1d4 rounds).
I think Unfazeable either begins too early or needs some kind of scaling component. Paladins can't remove the stunned condition with Mercy until 12th level. Clerics need a Heal spell to remove it.
I have a couple thoughts on this...
1.) you could try making this a condition track ability, where Unfazeable prevents nonlethal damage at 4th, the "dazed" condition at 8th, and the "stunned" condition at 12th (or some other scale that feels right for you)
2.) instead of granting blanket immunity, allow a barbarian to save each round at the end of his turn to shake off a stunned or dazed (or possibly staggered) effect.
Also trying to wrap my head around immunity to ability damage/drain, but I don't have any particular insights or comments yet.
best,
-eric
Speaker, I wanted to run something by you wrt your "Unfazeable" ability which kicks in at 4th level.
The stunned condition seems pegged in the PF game as a high-level condition. The low-level applications of stun are: Monks' stunning fist, color spray, and sound burst. Then all of a sudden there is a giant level gap until stun effects start showing up again.
Feats: Stunning Critical (17th level minimum)
Spells: power word, stun (1d4 to 4d4 rounds, HP-dependent), scintillating pattern (1d4 rounds), clenched fist (1 round), greater shout (1 round), symbol of stunning (1d6 rounds), weird (1 round),
word of chaos (1 round).Monsters: astral deva (1d6 round stun), horned devil (1d4 round stun), nymph (2d4 rounds), vrock (1 round), and the planetar, solar, balor, glabrezu, pit fiend (power word stun SLA).
3.5 monsters: 3.5 mindflayer (king of stunning at 3d4 rounds),
3.5 frost worm (duration of trill +1d4 rounds).I think Unfazeable either begins too early or needs some kind of scaling component. Paladins can't remove the stunned condition with Mercy until 12th level. Clerics need a Heal spell to remove it.
I have a couple thoughts on this...
1.) you could try making this a condition track ability, where Unfazeable prevents nonlethal damage at 4th, the "dazed" condition at 8th, and the "stunned" condition at 12th (or some other scale that feels right for you)
2.) instead of granting blanket immunity, allow a barbarian to save each round at the end of his turn to shake off a stunned or dazed (or possibly staggered) effect.
Also trying to wrap my head around immunity to ability damage/drain, but I don't have any particular insights or comments yet.
best,
-eric
Excellent observations!!! Honestly, I'd thought of "stun" as just an extension of "non-lethal" in nature. Mostly from the monk's stunning fist, but ... I guess seeing it up in high levels (especially in abilities to remove the condition) it could certainly use a "stagger" in progression vs. everything at once like it is now.
I kind of like that ... I didn't think of "daze" though as it's mind-based vs. the physical nature of non-lethal damage or the stun condition ... Hmm ... I'd probably be fine leaving "daze" out of it entirely, and going with level 4 = "non-lethal in rage only, and from environmental stuff" and at 12th for the "stun" added on simply. How's this sound?
On the Immunity to Ability damage/drain keep this in mind: my thought here is to ramp up a more supernatural source of power at this level (19th I believe it comes up, but certainly in the higher levels where miracle and wish are possible, etc), and to let some sort of "fury force" or something just allow the rager to constantly draw from this source and keep their rage bonus where it is supposed to be. Think of it like a Hulk effect basically, only they don't get stronger, they just STAY strong (in rage). Consider it (su) if you want - whatever, but that's essentially the angle I'm working with it. This is not supposed to be even SLIGHTLY mundane.
For that matter, the Fast Healing add-ons are also to be considered along this line - some sort of "force" providing additional stamina/endurance in combat vs. "Hey look! He's healing himself!!" It, too, should be considered (su) in nature.
Dropping 'always on' DR to level 1 seems ... interesting, but probably a bit much. I was trying to tone down the level dip effect there, so I'm not sure it'll help much.
The notion is simply to make the barbarian more resilient from the start. Giving a flat progression and having it double in rage just feels less finicky to me than saying "ok, you get -this much- DR from rage, and then you consult the table and add -this much- DR for your level". It's potent, but then, it's making up for the barbarian's unremarkable damage output at early levels, plus the removal of con bonuses from rage.
Problems w/roused anger - yes, you can do it while fatigued (though not exhausted), and IF you do, you end exhausted and are out for 10 minutes/1 ROUND of rage. It's a heavy, HEAVY penalty to work with if it's your final battle period, fine - won't have an effect. If you're just getting going, this is major in restriction/activation. The fatigue immunity is granted, but ONLY if you use this first (which means you're fatigued up front, and then you use it, and then you deal with the cripplingly long recovery time).
You're right, it's a pretty killer backlash. So why not amend it? Reduce the exhausted period to 1 minute per round spent in rage; nobody would bat an eye. It still prevents a character from re-raging in that time (which was the point), and it doesn't cripple the barbarian for an hour of recovery.
If you've not followed the other threads, you've missed part of the progression. I originally targeted 3 spells that would provide those effects and just made a blanket immunity to THOSE spells up front. It was later suggested that to target the condition would be, mechanically, more simple, and I agreed. The problem with the spells in question is that they work with NO save at all! NONE! In addition, 2 are area of effect spells that will instantly work with NO SAVE! These are major spells, IMO, for de-buffing and flat out neutering ANYONE in the AoE. Fatigue reduces your actions and movement abilities. Exhausted does the same and with even more crippling options and stat penalties. Those are very good spells, and for everyone else, it's just a problem. For a barbarian, it prevents the use of his ONE class feature if he's not already using it. The immunities are designed around that idea - to keep the barbarian raging, and not get screwed out of his power boons. I didn't want to screw spell casters, either, so if this happens before a barbarian can get the rage off, they're ok ... BUT Barbarians now have Mettle, so this would grant them a save (where otherwise targets are not able to), and they can avoid the effects entirely, or deal with some reduced effects if they blow the save. However, with the immunity in rage, and the mettle effect I want them to have a chance to be able to use their powers (as those particular spells can spell doom to their abilities otherwise).
I agree with whoever it was who suggested immunity to the condition(s), rather than immunity to the spells.
I hardly think it's screwing over spellcasters to give barbarians an optional power to become immune to certain spell effects. Check out the paladin's mercies- it's exactly the same sort of thing. Or consider, what happens when the rogue gets tripped a couple times in a fight? She decides to take the Stand Up talent, and suddenly it doesn't matter when she's tripped- she's back up in no time.
You seem to be artificially building up this tension in the first round of combat, like "Oh, if the caster manages to get ray of exhaustion off first, then he can totally cripple the barbarian" as though that's *common*. All I'm seeing is the encouragement of certain very corner-case anti-barbarian tactics.
Many things could *probably* go into a rage power function, but I'd much rather not make it situational or dependent upon a particular barbarians' rage power selection. If barbarian's want to bite people - go for it, they've got 7, fully open rage powers. Who says I'm denying that?
I just keep imagining 2 of the 3 rage powers you've removed as "rage while fatigued" and "rage while exhausted". I thought one of PF's great achievements was affording characters more options than they'd had in the past. What your rebuild does is corner barbarians into giving up some of those options in order to become "more functional" against tactics that they may never face.
Giving them the option means they can take 'rage while fatigued' if they battle a lot of ambush necromancers, but can otherwise put their powers towards more splashy stuff.
On the bonuses, again - check the earlier threads. It was more or less universally panned that extra stat gains on those really high levels was a bad idea. So ... stat gain was dialed back and rage damage entered the picture.
Yeah, I don't really think it's a good idea to jump their strength much beyond RAW. Just seems more organic and balanced than the rage damage bit. Is it really necessary to make them that much more *damaging* than they already are? RAW buffs to strength make them nearly match a fighter with his favoritest weapon, only with every weapon. Your progression makes them even better at those top levels.
I mean, I'm cool amping them up as the *toughest* class, and they should be great in combat, but I just don't think it's fair to also make them the best damage-dealers of all. Pretty sure that's what your rage damage does.
Maneuvers - yes, I'm aware of the bonus of Enlarge Person. Maneuvers still remain highly situationally useful.
I beg to differ. A character who knows their maneuvers can *destroy* opponents. Dealing with a fighter? Disarm! Fighters themselves are only immune to that with a single weapon at level 20, and brute-type monsters never are. Prior, you can make a disarm attempt for *every single attack you get*. You only need to succeed once and that combatant has halved their damage output or worse. This is even more true of rogue types, since they're terrible against maneuvers. A grappled spellcaster is a dead spellcaster; combat casting is immensely difficult, and if they haven't cast Freedom of Movement, or have had it dispelled, then they're going to die. Divine casters are especially vulnerable here, because they have precious few evasive spells to work with. In fact, monsters across the board are really vulnerable to grappling. With a character built to do it (it's only a few feats) they menace just about everything in the Bestiary.
In short: maybe in your games maneuvers are only "situationally useful", but in my games, they win half the fights. And the barbarian is absolutely the best at them.
I rolled temporary condition immunity into the rage levels, somthing along these lines:
1st - Lesser Rage (+2 ability mod) - Ignore "fatigued" and "shaken" conditions while raging.
5th - Improved Rage (+4 ability mod) - Ignore "dazzled, fatigued, shaken, sickened" conditions while raging.
10th - Greater Rage (+6 ability mod) - Ignore "dazzled/dazed, fatigued, shaken/frightened, sickened" conditions while raging.
15th - Mighty Rage (+8 ability mod) - Ignore "dazzled/dazed/stunned, fatigued/exhausted, shaken/frightened/panicked, sickened/nauseated" conditions while raging.
20th - Primal Rage (+10 ability mod) - Ignore "dazzled/dazed/stunned/staggered, fatigued/exhausted/ability damaged, fear effects (all), sickened/nauseated, and death effects" while raging.
@Kirth: Very interesting ... I'll have to play around with that before settling, but it's a clean idea if nothing else. ;-)
Just a bump here to let everyone know I put up the promised Fighter adjustments here.