If my players were to come across mithral and adamantine in it's pure state, how much is it worth, possibly in pounds?
Mithral to sale cost is via per-pound. They are not the distributor, so the sale cost is always half market cost, unless they barter or have some other modifier. So that is 250 lbs.
Adamantine... I don't know off hand.
What, your players get a little to rambunctious with fire spells or lamp oil, and milted the treasure?
This might help.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
Yeah, we tried to figure the weight/value of mithral coins and bars. It doesn't add up to a metal value when you make armor/weapons, but then I guess difficult craftsmanship enters the equation.
If my players were to come across mithral and adamantine in it's pure state, how much is it worth, possibly in pounds?
Making a 1lb. object out of mithral casts +500gp, but makes it weigh half as much.
so 1,000gp of mithral makes a 1lb. bar
50 coins to the pound, 1 mithral piece (mp) =20gp
Adamantine is harder, as there is no nice weight/cost value given. We can't just pick examples, as the ones we use will massively affect the outcome, so lets look at the relative values.
Adamantine light armor costs 3 times mithral
Medium is 2.5 times as much
Heavy is 1.66 times
Lets just use the 2.5 number, it's easy and in the middle.
that gives us a 1lb. bar at 2,500gp. 1 Adamantine piece (ap) =50gp
This is making a lot of assumptions and leaving out a lot of details. When the rules say that the cost of a 1lb. dagger and an 8lb. greatsword are both +3,000gp, you have to fudge a bit.
If my players were to come across mithral and adamantine in it's pure state, how much is it worth, possibly in pounds?Making a 1lb. object out of mithral casts +500gp, but makes it weigh half as much.
so 1,000gp of mithral makes a 1lb. bar
50 coins to the pound, 1 mithral piece (mp) =20gp
Adamantine is harder, as there is no nice weight/cost value given. We can't just pick examples, as the ones we use will massively affect the outcome, so lets look at the relative values.
Adamantine light armor costs 3 times mithral
Medium is 2.5 times as much
Heavy is 1.66 timesLets just use the 2.5 number, it's easy and in the middle.
that gives us a 1lb. bar at 2,500gp. 1 Adamantine piece (ap) =50gp
This is making a lot of assumptions and leaving out a lot of details. When the rules say that the cost of a 1lb. dagger and an 8lb. greatsword are both +3,000gp, you have to fudge a bit.
Perhaps the +3K is part of locating such a rare metal or someone to work it properly as it is harder than steel. Maybe it takes a magically enhanced forge and that is part of the price. I alway thought the multiplier decreasing was like a discount for already working over that much.
A modern example, if have 1 room shampooed, it costs X, if 2 rooms are done it'll be 2x÷1.10, and three rooms 3x÷1.25.
EDIT: 2 rooms = (X+X)x0.90, three rooms (X+X+X)x0.75...
Keep up the good work guys...
They are not the distributor, so the sale cost is always half market cost, unless they barter or have some other modifier.
If Iron is considered a trade good and can be sold at base value, then surely raw mithral is as well.
If my players were to come across mithral and adamantine in it's pure state, how much is it worth, possibly in pounds?Making a 1lb. object out of mithral casts +500gp, but makes it weigh half as much.
so 1,000gp of mithral makes a 1lb. bar
50 coins to the pound, 1 mithral piece (mp) =20gp
Adamantine is harder, as there is no nice weight/cost value given. We can't just pick examples, as the ones we use will massively affect the outcome, so lets look at the relative values.
Adamantine light armor costs 3 times mithral
Medium is 2.5 times as much
Heavy is 1.66 timesLets just use the 2.5 number, it's easy and in the middle.
that gives us a 1lb. bar at 2,500gp. 1 Adamantine piece (ap) =50gp
This is making a lot of assumptions and leaving out a lot of details. When the rules say that the cost of a 1lb. dagger and an 8lb. greatsword are both +3,000gp, you have to fudge a bit.
Uh....no. By that logic, the 9000gp it costs to make a suit of full plate would equate to around 9 lbs. of Mithral. Not to mention 4lbs. for a breastplate, and 1 lbs. for a chain shirt!
They are not the distributor, so the sale cost is always half market cost, unless they barter or have some other modifier.If Iron is considered a trade good and can be sold at base value, then surely raw mithral is as well.
But the listed price of 500lbs per pound includes the cost for making the item. So then the sail price in its material format is 250lbs.
But the listed price of 500lbs per pound includes the cost for making the item.
This is potentially true.
So then the sail price in its material format is 250lbs.
...but this doesn't logically follow from that truth. It is true if and only if the value of the crafter's time is the exact same as the value of the mithral ingots. Since we have absolutely no way to determine the value of the crafter's time, we have no way to determine the ratio between the value of mithral ingots and the value of the crafter's time. Thus, we cannot categorically say that mithral ingots sell for half market cost.
Is it written that mithral armors are made out of pure mithral? Because if it can be an alloy, math wouldn´t do without additional knowledge.
(to explain the reduced weight: steel/mithral alloy could be much more resistant than pure steel - so for example if you make a chain mail, you could use much smaller rings without making the armor weaker - which also adds a higher labor cost)
You know... you could simply state the worth of the ingot as the size of the ingot -- like they do for gems.
"This diamond is worth 1,000 gp"
Well what's it's karat value? How big is it? What's its clarity?
Doesn't matter it's a diamond worth 1,000 gp... it could be a huge flawed diamond, or a small perfect diamond -- GM's choice.
Same for the ingot.
If the players say it should be bigger, say it's small because of how pure it is.
If they say it should be smaller say it's big because it isn't quite as pure as other ingots.
Just give them the GP value you want it to have and go from there.
But the listed price of 500lbs per pound includes the cost for making the item.This is potentially true.
So then the sail price in its material format is 250lbs....but this doesn't logically follow from that truth. It is true if and only if the value of the crafter's time is the exact same as the value of the mithral ingots. Since we have absolutely no way to determine the value of the crafter's time, we have no way to determine the ratio between the value of mithral ingots and the value of the crafter's time. Thus, we cannot categorically say that mithral ingots sell for half market cost.
sorry I was half thinking 1 lbs sells for 250 gold. Man I am out of it.
Creative Director
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There's really not a lot to go on for prices for raw rare materials like this, unfortunately. Table 6–3 lists one pound of gold being worth 50 gp and one pound of platinum being worth 500 gp. And then mithral is listed as costing +500 gp/pound for non armor items. I'd say that 500 gp a pound for raw mithral is a pretty solid cost.
Adamantine is rarer and more expensive than mithral, but there we unfortunately don't have a per-pound baseline to tinker with. Looking at light armor, at +5000 gp, we see that basically means that a chain shirt costs 200 gp/pound. Extending that out to medium and heavy (using the heaviest versions of each), we see that medium armor is 250 gp/pound and heavy armor is 300 gp/pound. Applying that logic to weapons (using the heaviest weapon—the orc double axe) gets us 200 gp/pound. Which would argue that adamantine is LESS expensive than mithral. Which kinda weirds me out.
So my choice would be to either handwave it and simply assign prices ad hoc, like how you assign values to gemstones, or to say both mithral and adamantine costs 500 gp/pound.
There's really not a lot to go on for prices for raw rare materials like this, unfortunately. Table 6–3 lists one pound of gold being worth 50 gp and one pound of platinum being worth 500 gp. And then mithral is listed as costing +500 gp/pound for non armor items. I'd say that 500 gp a pound for raw mithral is a pretty solid cost.
Adamantine is rarer and more expensive than mithral, but there we unfortunately don't have a per-pound baseline to tinker with. Looking at light armor, at +5000 gp, we see that basically means that a chain shirt costs 200 gp/pound. Extending that out to medium and heavy (using the heaviest versions of each), we see that medium armor is 250 gp/pound and heavy armor is 300 gp/pound. Applying that logic to weapons (using the heaviest weapon—the orc double axe) gets us 200 gp/pound. Which would argue that adamantine is LESS expensive than mithral. Which kinda weirds me out.
So my choice would be to either handwave it and simply assign prices ad hoc, like how you assign values to gemstones, or to say both mithral and adamantine costs 500 gp/pound.
When you guys get around to an Unearthed Arcana type book (alternate rules) may I suggest that you put in a 'cost per pound' price for all special armor materials to make this sort of argument go away? It would be optional, and it need not work out to the original values (and honestly, I'm ok with Adamantine being cheaper per pound than Mithral, after all, they both have high hardness and hps, and Mithral lowers weight which Adamantine doesn't. That DR from Adamantine is nice, but often it's the weight people have to worry about).
I may just do this myself in my off-week game, since the only mithral or adamantine they have encountered so far is one mithral dagger and the adamantine shell on the war-forged.
Ok, number crunching time.
I went through and took every item that had metal in it, both weapon and armor, and put it in a spreadsheet (you can all duck and cover now).
Then I put in the cost of the item in Adamantine, the cost in Mithral, and the weight. Then I calculated the average cost per pound of the item like this :
Adamantine : Adamantine Cost / Weight
Mithral : Mithral Cost / (Weight / 2)
The reason I used weight/2 on the mithral is thus :
A steel dagger weighs 1 pound and costs 2 gp.
A mithral dagger weighs 1/2 pound and costs 502 gp.
Thus, it comes out that mithral is 502 gp for half a pound, or 1004 per pound. For a dagger.
Then I did this for ALL the weapons with metal (including ammo). Of course this doesn't take into account that not all weapons are completely metal, but the current rules don't either (for example, a mithral crossbow still weighs half as much, despite the fact that at least half the weight comes from wood, this is part of the system so I felt it was fair to use the full weight for calculations).
The final result was :
Average Cost per Pound of Mithral = 904.56
Average Cost per Pound of Adamantine = 937.88
So, Adamantine came out slightly more expensive, but only by 35gp per pound.
However, weapons and armor made from the two using the above numbers rounded off to a reasonable number (900 for both) will have VASTLY different prices.
Mithral Dagger = (1/2 pound * 900) + 2 = 452gp.
Adamantine Dagger = (1 pound * 900) + 2 = 902gp.
Thus keeping Adamantine much more expensive than Mithral in the marketplace, despite the two metals being similar in price per pound.
Now, none of this takes masterworking into account, but then, the prices for masterworking are already figured in using the existing system. So, I don't feel that needs to be worried about as long as MW is kept in under the per pound values.
Now, the problem is that while this works well for weapons, armor made from the metals tends to be much more expensive.
Mithral Full-Plate : 24,000gp
Adamantine Full-Plate : 46,500gp
That's a 13,500gp bump for Mithral, and a whopping 30,000gp bump for Adamantine.
Honestly though, I think I'd be ok with that. it would make Adamantine something REALLY special, as opposed to something you can get at level 8.
Edited : Rounded the Adamantine down to 900gp per pound, like Mithral, originally had it rounded up, but realized I'd kept a whip in that threw the numbers off.
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Creative Director
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When you guys get around to an Unearthed Arcana type book (alternate rules) may I suggest that you put in a 'cost per pound' price for all special armor materials to make this sort of argument go away? It would be optional, and it need not work out to the original values (and honestly, I'm ok with Adamantine being cheaper per pound than Mithral, after all, they both have high hardness and hps, and Mithral lowers weight which Adamantine doesn't. That DR from Adamantine is nice, but often it's the weight people have to worry about).
I may just do this myself in my off-week game, since the only mithral or adamantine they have encountered so far is one mithral dagger and the adamantine shell on the war-forged.
This is a change that should appear in the 2nd edition of Pathfinder, not an Unearthed Arcana type book (which isn't something we're currently planning on doing anytime soon anyway).
This is a change that should appear in the 2nd edition of Pathfinder, not an Unearthed Arcana type book (which isn't something we're currently planning on doing anytime soon anyway).When you guys get around to an Unearthed Arcana type book (alternate rules) may I suggest that you put in a 'cost per pound' price for all special armor materials to make this sort of argument go away? It would be optional, and it need not work out to the original values (and honestly, I'm ok with Adamantine being cheaper per pound than Mithral, after all, they both have high hardness and hps, and Mithral lowers weight which Adamantine doesn't. That DR from Adamantine is nice, but often it's the weight people have to worry about).
I may just do this myself in my off-week game, since the only mithral or adamantine they have encountered so far is one mithral dagger and the adamantine shell on the war-forged.
OUCH,
James, you should no better than to mention PFII in any way unless you're planning on releasing it next year.Now you're going to have thousands of posts flaming you for changing PFI and thousands flaming you for not changing it fast enough. Not to mention hundreds of thousands demanding you release the ALPHA so it can be playtested immediately. ;)
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Creative Director
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OUCH,
James, you should no better than to mention PFII in any way unless you're planning on releasing it next year.
Now you're going to have thousands of posts flaming you for changing PFI and thousands flaming you for not changing it fast enough. Not to mention hundreds of thousands demanding you release the ALPHA so it can be playtested immediately. ;)
PF II will be out a month after the APG. It'll cost half as much, and each time we sell a copy, high-tech chemical elements built into every PF I product will activate, causing two of those books for every one of PF II we sell to not only self-destruct in a flash of fire and shrieking bats, but will also cause all the milk in your fridge to spoil, will overflow your toilet, and will upload your credit card info and bank account info to my iPhone.
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PF II will be out a month after the APG. It'll cost half as much, and each time we sell a copy, high-tech chemical elements built into every PF I product will activate, causing two of those books for every one of PF II we sell to not only self-destruct in a flash of fire and shrieking bats, but will also cause all the milk in your fridge to spoil, will overflow your toilet, and will upload your credit card info and bank account info to my iPhone.OUCH,
James, you should no better than to mention PFII in any way unless you're planning on releasing it next year.
Now you're going to have thousands of posts flaming you for changing PFI and thousands flaming you for not changing it fast enough. Not to mention hundreds of thousands demanding you release the ALPHA so it can be playtested immediately. ;)
Sooooo......only 2 of those are true?
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Creative Director
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Sooooo......only 2 of those are true?PF II will be out a month after the APG. It'll cost half as much, and each time we sell a copy, high-tech chemical elements built into every PF I product will activate, causing two of those books for every one of PF II we sell to not only self-destruct in a flash of fire and shrieking bats, but will also cause all the milk in your fridge to spoil, will overflow your toilet, and will upload your credit card info and bank account info to my iPhone.OUCH,
James, you should no better than to mention PFII in any way unless you're planning on releasing it next year.
Now you're going to have thousands of posts flaming you for changing PFI and thousands flaming you for not changing it fast enough. Not to mention hundreds of thousands demanding you release the ALPHA so it can be playtested immediately. ;)
The world will know for sure a month after APG comes out!
I always assumed that a little bit of adamantine went a long way - smelting it with normal iron ore to create the weapons and armor we see.
So if adamantine armor was 200 gp/pound, and 1/5 the ore was adamantine, that makes adamantine about 1000gp/pound.