I've been kicking around an idea for a different way of dealing with armor. The system would do away with specific types of armor and just deal with the category. It would give a defensive progression and would get rid of the Speed penalty, one of the big reasons I avoid medium and heavy armor.
Light Armor: +2 Armor Bonus/ +1 per every 4 Levels, Armor Check: -0, Arcane Spell Fail: 10%, Full Dex Bonus to AC.
Medium Armor: +4 Armor Bonus/ +1 per every 3 Levels, Armor Check: -3, Arcane Spell Fail: 20%, 1/2 Dex Bonus to AC.
Heavy Armor: +6 Armor Bonus/ +1 per every 2 Levels, Armor Check: -6, Arcane Spell Fail: 30%, No Dex Bonus to AC.
You might also give an Unarmored Defense Bonus Feat (Monks would get it for free) that gives you the +1 to defense every 5 levels when unarmored.
What do you think?
+16 to AC from Mah Full Plate at lvl 20?
I don't like it, what do you feel is wrong with the armor system as is already?
I must say, I've seen a few alternative systems, but I don't think anything like yours.
There were a few I liked, but opted to stay to the book for ease of storage, and simplification.
+16 to AC from Mah Full Plate at lvl 20?
I don't like it, what do you feel is wrong with the armor system as is already?
I must say, I've seen a few alternative systems, but I don't think anything like yours.
There were a few I liked, but opted to stay to the book for ease of storage, and simplification.
In addition to the fact that this scales the armor bonus wildly high, it also takes away from the Fighter's Armor Training ability. The big selling point of that class feature isn't so much the decreases in ACP, it's the removal of the speed penalty. Now you're giving that to everyone for free. This also takes away from the Dwarf too, now that I think about it.
If you don't want to be slowed down by medium or heavy armor, be a Fighter. Be a Dwarf. Heck, be a Barbarian in medium armor, their speed increase lets them move just as fast as a normal human in light armor. What you want is already available in the system, you just have to earn it.
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I don't like it, what do you feel is wrong with the armor system as is already?
Off the top of my head, AC doesn't scale like attack bonuses, heavy armor is severely suboptimal in higher levels where Dex bonuses and alternatives can increase AC much more than heavy armor, and the speed penalty is crippling.
At 15th level in my game, the heavy armored cleric had the lowest AC and the no armor monk had the highest. I felt sad.
Ever worn an armor? It would be even more realistic to give a speed penalty for medium armors, if you wear a chain mail with a weight of 15 kg (I got one ^^), you sure don´t move half the speed as if you wear no armor - the speed penalty is good as it is now.
Your other ideas well... why? Whats the reason behind your ideas?
And do you see the disadvantage for anyone who wants to customize his character if his options in armor are limited to 3 types of armor instead of full plate, half plate, chain mail, splint mail etc?
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I'd say it would be more realistic to say you get no speed penalty in your armor for an amount of time determined by your Con score. Then you start to slow down, with an increasing speed penalty as the weight wears you down.
But I don't want to deal with the headache of realism in my fantasy roleplaying game. I'm okay with the idea of 'you have trained since a child in wearing heavy things and can wear fifty pounds of metal like a normal person wears a leather tunic'.
Back to working on Crafting for me.
The armor system is fine as is IMO.
First off, what I don't like about the current system is that, at higher levels, monsters just hit you unless they roll really low. While you can get very high ACs, doing it requires a level of stacking magical bonuses that the GMs in our games, including me, won't allow just from the little down time PCs get and because we tend to cut back on the magic swag they get. It also bugs me that your ability to avoid being hit never goes up naturally while your attack bonus does. This system allows for a character to learn how to take hits on their armor versus the capability of the armor to take a hit. It also bugged me that medium armor was rarely used.
As far as affect races and classes getting abilities stepped on, that's going to happen with almost any change you make in a game. You just have to go and make changes to those that are affected. For instance what if Dwarves got the ability to sleep in any armor or something. Fighters getting +1 to the Max Dex towards armor might not help out with light armor, but with medium or heavy it helps. I don't think it would require drastic changes to bring it up to snuff.
As far as speed penalties go, I have worn chainmail before and not the ultralight stuff. I didn't notice any real change in movement, especially when adreniline was involved. I was sore afterwards, but then again I don't wear stuff like that regularly and don't train in it. A fighter is a professional soldier, so they'ed train in it regularly, much like modern militaries drilling troops in full kit.
Soo... what is wrong with just adding a static/increasing bonus INSTEAD of replacing the armor system in its entirety with a new system.
Seriously.
Just ADD something like this to work WITH the armor system, INSTEAD of replacing it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm
Give your player access to magic armors with a accordingly high AC - and the correspoding price.
Thats the usual way in d20.
Since the money goes up as the level goes up, expensive armors are just like natural increasing ACs
Other basic idea: Make the parry feat of duelists available to all melee classes or allow it as a standard action for any character - your AC represents how hard it is to hit your weak spot as passive defense while your parry represents an active defense
Soo... what is wrong with just adding a static/increasing bonus INSTEAD of replacing the armor system in its entirety with a new system.
Seriously.
Just ADD something like this to work WITH the armor system, INSTEAD of replacing it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm
For probably similar reasons you want to change the crafting rules. actually the Defense Bonus was something I looked at. I just simplified the system, made it dependent on armor, and did away with the different armors to make it more narrative. If you want a classic type of armor, you can still have it. If you want armor made from plate of armor and leathers made from monsters you kill, thats easy too.
I'm tweaking the crafting rules because it takes like over 200 days to make a piece of full plate mail armor... And that's just REALLY freaking Gay.
So I'm trying to add some form of realism to it, as well as some fantasy aspects.
That way you can get it done I say 90-160 days instead of the 200+ days normally required.
I dunno, I think that's a reasonable trade off.
Hell, you could do it even faster officially depending on how many people you have working on it and such.
Just did a quick calc, 19x19/7 = 288, 8 hour days to craft a Full Plate Armor
Seem Heavy to you?
Now consider this, When we actually used Full Plate... NOT ONE of our REAL LIFE guys was higher than 5th level >.>
The trouble with making a fuss about how BAB rises while AC doesn't is that the game is still fairly balanced with it in effect. Magical equipment is certainly the crutch that the current system uses, but it's an effective crutch.
If you want to do away with magical equipment, go with the class defense bonus deal (1/2 level is a decent rate to use). Armor doesn't increase at variable rates for different classes, so your original notion is somewhat flawed. Consider the typical magic + armor setup to be:
(armor bonus) + lvl/4 (armor enhancement) + lvl/4 (deflection) + lvl/4 (natural armor).
The party fighter in full plate will have an AC perhaps 5 points higher than the rogue in a chain shirt, no matter what level everyone is. Of course there are shields and dex bonuses and other considerations, but thats still no cause to have the classes end with an 11 point disparity in AC.
Another thing you might want to consider is that, while characters become more easy to hit at higher levels, they can also take a lot more damage. At level 2, you can be cleaned out by a power attacking ogre, so the miss chance is essential to survival. At level 18, you can get full-attacked by a kraken, take every blow, and still be standing. If you were in danger of dying at every swing, it would be essential to embed AC bonuses through all levels, but you're not. Game dynamics just change as one advances.
The trouble with making a fuss about how BAB rises while AC doesn't is that the game is still fairly balanced with it in effect. Magical equipment is certainly the crutch that the current system uses, but it's an effective crutch.
If you want to do away with magical equipment, go with the class defense bonus deal (1/2 level is a decent rate to use). Armor doesn't increase at variable rates for different classes, so your original notion is somewhat flawed. Consider the typical magic + armor setup to be:
(armor bonus) + lvl/4 (armor enhancement) + lvl/4 (deflection) + lvl/4 (natural armor).
The party fighter in full plate will have an AC perhaps 5 points higher than the rogue in a chain shirt, no matter what level everyone is. Of course there are shields and dex bonuses and other considerations, but thats still no cause to have the classes end with an 11 point disparity in AC.
Another thing you might want to consider is that, while characters become more easy to hit at higher levels, they can also take a lot more damage. At level 2, you can be cleaned out by a power attacking ogre, so the miss chance is essential to survival. At level 18, you can get full-attacked by a kraken, take every blow, and still be standing. If you were in danger of dying at every swing, it would be essential to embed AC bonuses through all levels, but you're not. Game dynamics just change as one advances.
As with any system, it needs playtesting to see how it works. This system might work great in games I play in might not work well in yours. I can tell you the formula you gave was way off for the games I play in, as it would mean the DM gave us perminant magic item creation feats, because all the gamers I know can rape that system and many have been since 3.0 and break the game. If a DM lets you get away with stacking all the bonuses (Luck, Dodge, The Right Jack Bonus, etc) it's going to be a problem in any game.
I do think you have gotten something mixed up with the system I suggest. Heavy armor starts at 6 and would end at 15 at 20th lvl. Medium would start at 4, end at 10, and you get to add 1/2 your dex bonus. Light armor starts at 2, ends at 6, and you get to add all your dex. Full Plate you get a flat 8 and at some point you'll probably get a +1 dex mod.
If a DM lets you get away with stacking all the bonuses (Luck, Dodge, The Right Jack Bonus, etc) it's going to be a problem in any game.
Uhm, different bonuses DO stack with each other (and Dodge bonuses from multiple sources stack), and it's never been a problem in any game I've played in, thank you very much. Maybe you're seeing a problem with low AC's because you think they don't?
I do think you have gotten something mixed up with the system I suggest....
For heavy armor, in what you propose:
Lvl AC1 6
2 7
3 7
4 8
5 8
6 9
7 9
8 10
9 10
10 11
11 11
12 12
13 12
14 13
15 13
16 14
17 14
18 15
19 15
20 16
Now, perhaps you mean to say that you gain +1 for every 2nd level beyond 1st? Or put more succinctly, +1 every odd level?
Actually FUll Plate in PF is 9 AC.
Sooo.. with +1 Dex = +10 AC...
6 below yours..
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
Now, perhaps you mean to say that you gain +1 for every 2nd level beyond 1st? Or put more succinctly, +1 every odd level?
As far as stacking goes, I was aware that that is perfectly legal if kind of ridiculous IMO, but thanks anyways.
I thought what Maeloke was saying that there was a difference of 11 point AC between Light and Heavy Armor, which with your interpretation or mine would be a 9 points. I could have misinterpreted what was said, but then again this is the internet, it's not like that's uncommon. I put the base and maximum caps there so people could get an idea of the progression without having to put a table up and to show that point difference.
I could also choose to take your comments as a flame over some really nitpicky stuff but I could be mistaken there because, like I said, it's the internet. Either way, if I did ever publish anything with this ruleset it would be after playtesting and editing. If it was something you didn't like I'd be really surprised if some one held a gun to your head and make you play it.
Don't worry, game happy!
As with any system, it needs playtesting to see how it works. This system might work great in games I play in might not work well in yours. I can tell you the formula you gave was way off for the games I play in, as it would mean the DM gave us perminant magic item creation feats, because all the gamers I know can rape that system and many have been since 3.0 and break the game. If a DM lets you get away with stacking all the bonuses (Luck, Dodge, The Right Jack Bonus, etc) it's going to be a problem in any game.
I do think you have gotten something mixed up with the system I suggest. Heavy armor starts at 6 and would end at 15 at 20th lvl. Medium would start at 4, end at 10, and you get to add 1/2 your dex bonus. Light armor starts at 2, ends at 6, and you get to add all your dex. Full Plate you get a flat 8 and at some point you'll probably get a +1 dex mod.
Ah, I did do some bad math :). Anyhow, my point still stands.
What I'm trying to convey is that, in general, armor and magical bonuses to armor class advance at even rates for all classes. Everyone purchases +1 armor when they can, everyone upgrades to the +3 ring of protection when they can afford it, etc. Assuming characters are on equivalent financial footing, everyone is going to get better at the same rate. Ergo, having one class get +1 armor/2 levels while another gets +1 armor/4 levels is poor design, all discussion of dexterity and stacking bonuses aside.
If your party is full of munchkins, that's a shame, and if you need an armor system like that to keep them in line, I guess that's your call. For my part, I see your system as just presenting different rigors to min/max around. Most relevantly, you should note that there is no situation where medium armor is better than heavy armor. This is universally true; if your dexterity is high enough to make medium armor better than heavy armor, you should be wearing light armor instead. Consequently, you drive players in two directions: either to dump dexterity, or to max it out. Core Pathfinder provides intermediate points where eventually getting a dexterity of 14 or 16 is great, but there's absolutely no payoff for that sort of moderate character building in your scheme. Its dex 10 or dex 30, and damn the middle ground.
Actually FUll Plate in PF is 9 AC.
Sooo.. with +1 Dex = +10 AC...
6 below yours..
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
It was 8 in 3.X right? Haven't played any characters in anything other then light so far. I remember having characters with 19 AC in full plate with dex and 21 with a shield at 1st.
That's the one thing I wish Paizo had released, a pdf that had all those little changes on it.
Ah, I did do some bad math :). Anyhow, my point still stands.What I'm trying to convey is that, in general, armor and magical bonuses to armor class advance at even rates for all classes. Everyone purchases +1 armor when they can, everyone upgrades to the +3 ring of protection when they can afford it, etc. Assuming characters are on equivalent financial footing, everyone is going to get better at the same rate. Ergo, having one class get +1 armor/2 levels while another gets +1 armor/4 levels is poor design, all discussion of dexterity and stacking bonuses aside.
If your party is full of munchkins, that's a shame, and if you need an armor system like that to keep them in line, I guess that's your call. For my part, I see your system as just presenting different rigors to min/max around. Most relevantly, you should note that there is no situation where medium armor is better than heavy armor. This is universally true; if your dexterity is high enough to make medium armor better than heavy armor, you should be wearing light armor instead. Consequently, you drive players in two directions: either to dump dexterity, or to...
I wouldn't worry about it, because we all know Math is an evil bastard :D!
I get where your coming from, I'd like to see how it plays out. If it turns out that it is a problem, there is always the option of moving them all to the Medium Armor progression to test it out. That should lead to only a 4 point difference. failing that I could swing to either the light or heavy progression, or just call it off.
I wouldn't call them munchkins but they would make great playtesters, by and large. Most of them will tell you not to let them play something and even show you the math. If you let them play it they will show you why you shouldn't have let them. Though if it gets real bad they ditch the character. Item creation rules can derail a session with talk of how broken it is.