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Just wondering, does the Far Realm exist in Golarion's planar cosmology? I know that it's main purpose was to provide an origin point for Mythos-type monsters (eventually expanded to all aberrations). The Dark Tapestry provides this function for Golarion, but that doesn't prevent the Far Realm from existing. Lovecraft had entities that had origins in the depths of space, but some also had their origins in other dimensions. I know I'm free to use the Far Realms in my own personal Golarion, but I was just wondering if there was an official stance on this. Or do one of the already named demi-planes serve this function?
Creative Director
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Yeah; the Far Realm is WotC's to play with. They own it.
In Golarion, though, we've generally gone straight to the source and use the actual public domain elements of the Lovecraft mythos. For most of those elements, the monsters are either from deep space (which is where they're from in Golarion... remember that our Material Plane is as big as the real universe, so there's LOTS of places for alien monsters to lurk). For others they're other planes, such as what we've done by incorporating Leng into our cosmology. And then there's always the deepest layers of the Abyss, which predate most other existence and have some really crazy primeval horrors.
So really, the answer is we don't have just one realm that serves as the homeworld for the alien horrors. We have a LOT of realms like that.
So really, the answer is we don't have just one realm that serves as the homeworld for the alien horrors. We have a LOT of realms like that.
So now Atropus makes sense :)
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Creative Director
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Don't forget The Dreamlands. The gugs in the Darklands crossed over to Golarion from there and Leng extends into them.
Correct. The dimension of dream is a part of Golarion's cosmology, and Lovecraft's Dreamlands (or a very similar likeness) are a part of that part of the cosmology.
Chortle chortle!!
*Rubs hands in gleeful anticipation in what is to come*
I'm a huge fan of Lovecraft's The Dream Quest Of Unknown Kadath.
I also think Paizo's decision to go direct to the source is far better than WotC's "Far Realm." The Far Realm is kind of a generic abberation source rather than being a place of true Lovecraftian horror. Eberron has a better sort of dimension than the Far Realm (or did they just make Xoriat = Far Realm in their 4e rendition of Eberron?).
I'm a huge fan of Lovecraft's The Dream Quest Of Unknown Kadath.
I also think Paizo's decision to go direct to the source is far better than WotC's "Far Realm." The Far Realm is kind of a generic abberation source rather than being a place of true Lovecraftian horror. Eberron has a better sort of dimension than the Far Realm (or did they just make Xoriat = Far Realm in their 4e rendition of Eberron?).
Xoriat was indistinguishable from the Far Realm in 3.5e, as far as I could tell. They even used cut-and-paste text to describe both.
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Xoriat was indistinguishable from the Far Realm in 3.5e, as far as I could tell. They even used cut-and-paste text to describe both.I'm a huge fan of Lovecraft's The Dream Quest Of Unknown Kadath.
I also think Paizo's decision to go direct to the source is far better than WotC's "Far Realm." The Far Realm is kind of a generic abberation source rather than being a place of true Lovecraftian horror. Eberron has a better sort of dimension than the Far Realm (or did they just make Xoriat = Far Realm in their 4e rendition of Eberron?).
Cheap. Cheap (No, I am not imitating baby chicks.)
I prefer going to the original source of the ideas whenever possible. In the case of H.P. Lovecraft, he WANTED and ENCOURAGED people to add on to his universe. So, I think it is especially fitting that Paizo is following this tradition. (Hmm, are there alternate Prime Material Planes -- such places could be interesting to explore, such as a Golarion where the Old Ones are making their presence much more known.)
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The thing is, unless WotC has somewhere defined the Far Realm more fully than in Dragon #330 and included things that make it explicitly non-Lovecraftian, it's no less of an expansion to the Mythos than were the additions of any non-Lovecraft authors. Hastur, Ithaqua, Cthugha, Tsaoggua, and many other creatures, books, places, etc are considered part of the Mythos proper, but were added on by authors other than Lovecraft. Many Mythos entities were from distant parts of space, true, but others resided outside of space as we understand it, such as Yog-Sothoth or the creatures in From Beyond. Other than the fact that WotC slapped a name on one of these dimensions for the sake of convenience, there's very little that seperates the Far Realm from one of these dimensions.
It's odd that I'm making this arguement, because usually I'm the guy arguing for a more strict definition of what constitutes Lovecraft's Mythos. For example, I remember a thread on these very boards not long ago where I declared that I did not considerer the movie (or the story) Herbert West: Reanimator to be a part of the Mythos.
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The Far Realm is WotC IP, and thus doesn't exist in Golarion. Rather than Mythos-inspired, the preferred Paizo approach is to just outright add in Mythos creatures directly.The Far Realm isn't WotC intellectual property anymore than Hercules is Disney IP.
Go ahead, release a commercial PDF with Far Realm full of Mind Flayers, Kaorti and other tentacled things. I wonder how fast the c&d letter will arrive. :)
Xoriat was indistinguishable from the Far Realm in 3.5e, as far as I could tell. They even used cut-and-paste text to describe both.
I must have had a good GM then. He really made Xoriat feel as strange a place and concept as any Lovecraftian realm.
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Creative Director
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Actually, WotC has been pretty good about NOT mentioning any of the Lovecraft names in association with the Far Realm. It's no more public domain than what was in the trunk of Stephen King's "From a Buick 8" or in the mist in his "The Mist," the alien from "Alien," the mythos of gods from "Ghostbusters," the other dimension from Half Life, or countless other things that may or may not have been inspired by Lovecraft.
What I'm saying is that there's no NEED to cling to the Far Realm. Just do what they did and build your own alien dimension. Seems to work for Stephen King, after all.
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Creative Director
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The Far Realm is WotC IP, and thus doesn't exist in Golarion. Rather than Mythos-inspired, the preferred Paizo approach is to just outright add in Mythos creatures directly.The Far Realm isn't WotC intellectual property anymore than Hercules is Disney IP.
Actually, the Far Realm IS WotC's intellectual property. That's precisely WHY they call it the Far Realm and not, say, Leng or Hades or something else that's drawn from mythology or the public domain. Calling this dimension the "Far Realm" is PRECISELY what WotC needed to do to make it their own intellectual property. This is the reason why in 4th edition, in fact, you see their outer planes skewing so heavily toward things like the Feywild and the Elemental Chaos and other brand-new made-up realms that, while they may have been inspired by other elements like previous editions, other writers, or mythology, are actually brand new names that they can control.
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Creative Director
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My hope is that Paizo will try to go to the original sources for the areas that they develop. There is a lot of good material -- not just for the Cthulhu Mythos -- to use and develop. (It never hurts to do your own research and creating something you can call your own.)
That's more or less exactly the philosophy here at Paizo.
so it needs a new name I think.
shall we keep realm
a thesauraus for the words far and realm and then what will it be called.
Twilight domain
no domain is already in use in PFRealm of twilight
ruled by the shadow proclamation.
Infinite Realm
Realm of the InfiniteThe Realm Beyond
The Realm Man Was Not Meant to Name! (I like that one especially!!!)
Un-realm
Mlaer?
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Creative Director
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so it needs a new name I think.
No new name needed; we've got plenty. We've got the Dark Tapestry for the alien stuff from the material plane (which is where the majority of the Lovecraftian stuff is at), Leng for the Dreamlands elements and outer planar elements, and the Abyss for everything else.
Mlaer RafUn-realmMlaer?
!ti tog s'eh
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My hope is that Paizo will try to go to the original sources for the areas that they develop. There is a lot of good material -- not just for the Cthulhu Mythos -- to use and develop. (It never hurts to do your own research and creating something you can call your own.)That's more or less exactly the philosophy here at Paizo.
I've always had that philosophy for campaign development, reading such things as epic poems and various histories and other books that did not get checked out of the library much. Hmm, maybe I should have a character go for the Loremaster prestige class.
Fortunately, there is a ton of stuff NO ONE can put a copyright on and I think that gives a lot to mine. (For myself, I would not mind some Lord Dunsany influences or inspiration.)
Many of Lovecraft's creations were shown living on other worlds or near other stars. So, perhaps that can be worked into Golarion canon. (In our own world, we have the star Algol. also known as the Demon Star, in Perseus, which is sometimes eclipsed by a companion -- leading to sinister interpretations. The Arabic name of the star is r'as al ghul -- head of the ogre.) Maybe a constellation map for Golarion might be a nice thing to work into a future product -- along with some star references.
I would love some sort of night sky images, including constellations. Even if you just did a northern hemisphere winter and summer star map that would be perfect.
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Creative Director
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I would love some sort of night sky images, including constellations. Even if you just did a northern hemisphere winter and summer star map that would be perfect.
This is something we've been working on for a while for an upcoming Adventure Path. It's not ready to go yet, but will be some day.
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You seem to be agreeing with me that the Far Realm isn't IP (only the name 'the Far Realm' is IP), but you also say that the Far Realm is IP. So, I'm a bit confused.
Is this one of those many cases where the law just doesn't make sense? I mean, how can WotC make a Lovecraftian concept IP or is the Far Realm not as Lovecraftian as I thought?
In this case the name is what is preventing use, not the concept. Or at least, they cannot use Far Realm directly. Hence other versions like Leng arise.
Check out the Mind Flayers thread in the 3.5 gaming area further down the boards too, that might help some me thinks.
I just want to throw in here that anyone who isn't listening to the H.P. Lovecraft Literary Podcast really should be. It's really accessible, even to people unfamiliar with Lovecraft, and it does a good job of covering the material. Also, Trail of Cthulhu game designer Ken Hite is a guest on several episodes, and he's fantastic.
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Creative Director
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The Far Realm name is their intellectual property. The idea of an alien dimension is not their intellectual property, but if someone were to build an alien dimension called, say, "The Distant Dark" and then filled it with a lot of monsters and things that were VERY similar to how the Far Realm works, you'd be on thin ice.