Crafting: To craft an object, a character generally starts with half the item's value in raw materials. Each week of work (a successful craft check at the item's DC) adds value to the raw materials equal to the character's respective mastery value. When the raw materials plus the mastery value equals the cost of the item, it is completed. If the character's mastery value is higher than half the item's final value, he can complete it in proportionately less time.
Mastery Value: Each character with ranks in a Craft skill has a number associated with the skill, indicating the sheer value of their professional expertise. This value is equal to their total Craft check modifer squared, and represents the number of silver pieces in crafting per week that the character's skill can account for.
Advanced crafting: Ambitious craftspeople can attempt to produce superior work in less time with diminished resources. They may choose to apply any of the following modifiers to a craft project (it applies to every roll, if the project takes longer than a single day to complete)
-Reduce starting supplies to 25% final item value*: +5 DC
-Reduce starting supplies to 10% final item value*: +10 DC
-Triple effective mastery value: +10 DC
-Multiply effective mastery value tenfold: +20 DC
*note that these modifiers will result in longer crafting times, as the base materials comprise less of the final value.
Assistants: A craftsman can have any number of assistants contribute their respective mastery values to the weekly progress on an item by making a craft check at a DC 10 lower than the craftsman's final DC (including the modifiers listed above). Assistants may not voluntarily raise the Craft DC for production benefits - only the lead craftsman may do so.
Failure: If you fail a week's craft check by 1-5, you add no value for that week. If you fail by 6 or more, you ruin the project and must begin anew. Note that these conditions apply to assistants as well as the lead craftsman - an inept helper is liable to ruin sophisticated projects.
Sample usage 1: A peasant tailor (com 1) wants to make a traveller's outfit. The tailor's Craft (clothing) modifier is +4 (1 rank, 3 class skill, artisan's tools), yielding a mastery value of 16 sp.
A traveller's outfit normally costs 1 gp, so the tailor begins with 5 sp in materials. With a week of work (a DC 10 check at his modifier of +4) he can add a total of 16 sp to the outfit. As he reaches the final value of 1 gp with time to spare (11/16 sp) he does not need to spend a whole week on the project - 7 days * (5/16) = about 2 days. He can produce three such outfits with a week of work, with time to spare.
(compare to RAW: DC 10 * 14 result = 140 sp = 14 outfits in one week by one peasant)
Sample usage 2: The head smith (exp 6) in a medium sized town has been commissioned to make several breastplates for the watch. The smith has a Craft (armorsmithing) modifier of +16 (6 ranks, 3 class skill, 3 skill focus, 2 intelligence, 2 masterwork artisan's tools), yielding a mastery value of 19.6 gp or 196 sp. She has 4 assistants (exp or com 3) with modifiers of +8 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, 2 masterwork artisan's tools) helping her, contributing values of 6.4 gp each.
Breastplates are a DC 16 project that cost 200 gp, so the smith begins with 100 gp's worth of materials. She wants to speed the project along, so raises the target DC by 10, up to 26 - something she can just manage to take 10 at. At this higher DC, the whole smithy's yield is 135.6 gp - they will complete a breastplate every 4-5 days.
(compare to RAW: DC 16 * 26 result = 20 days for one breastplate)
On her own, this same smith can make a masterwork battleaxe with 155 gp in materials in roughly 18 days. Cutting down on costs, she can produce one for 31 gp, but all the extra refinement will take her 99 days.
(compare to RAW: DC 25 (15 + 10 voluntary increase) * 26 result = 650 sp per week; 33 days of work at maximum, more commonly 55)
Sample usage 3: A master alchemist (alc 14) is cornered in a tower by a hobgoblin battle company. Having already exhausted his bombs for the day, he needs to whip up some alchemist's fire before the gobs can construct basic siege equipment - something that will take them a couple hours, but not all night. The alchemist's Craft (alchemy) modifier is +35 (+14 ranks, +3 class skill, +6 int, +14 class feature, -2 improvised tools), giving a mastery value of 1225 sp (he's good), doubled to 2450 for his swift alchemy ability (he's awesome).
Alchemist's fire is a DC 20 project that costs 20 gp. The alchemist is low on supplies though, and has to scrounge around the tower - he'll add +5 DC to reduce the material cost to 25% of its base, or 5 gp per vial. He'll add another 20 to multiply his mastery value by 10, and then take 10 at +35 against a DC of 45. Success gives him 24500 sp worth of alchemist's fire for a week of work.
He doesn't have a week, though. Working out his hourly progress, he gets 24500 sp/(8 hours * 7 days) = 437.5 sp worth of alchemist fire value per hour. Starting with 5 gp of materials, he can produce a vial of alchemist's fire every 20 minutes or so. When the hobgoblins finish making their ladders in a couple of hours, the alchemist will have something to fight them with.
(compare to RAW: alchemist needs 6.66 gp in chemicals. DC 30 [20+10 voluntary difficulty increase] * 45 = 1350 sp = 2.41 gp worth of alchemist's fire per hour, doubled to 4.82 with swift alchemy means he'll get 1 vial every 4 hours or so - he'll be lucky to have produced a single vial)
Sample usage 4: A foul demon is terrorizing the land, so a young knight ascends the mountain to request aid from the legendary swordsmith residing there (exp 18). The smith is moved by the knight's tale, and promises to forge a hero's weapon to fight the creature. The smith's Craft (weaponsmithing) bonus is +35 (18 ranks, 3 class skill, 4 int, 6 skill focus, 2 master craftsman, 2 masterwork smithy), and his mastery value is 1225 sp.
The knight seems suited for a bastard sword, and the smith has been saving some adamantine for an occasion such as this: his project will cost 3035 gp, so he begins with 1517.5 gp in materials at a DC 20. He raises this DC by 20 to increase his mastery value to 12250 sp. The smith takes 10 on this DC 45 project and adds 1225 gp to the sword's base value for a week of work. He will finish the forging in 9 days. Another 9 days and 9k in materials will present the knight with a +1 keen demon bane adamantine bastard sword (not that the enchantments have anything to do with the crafting rules, just the story)
(compare to Raw: smith needs ~1010 gp in materials. DC 30 * 45 result = 1350 sp per week = 22.48 wks to complete the sword... plus the same 9 days to do the enchanting work)
Thoughts, anyone? I know it shares plenty of the weaknesses of the original rules, but its not much of an increase in complexity, and it allows for substantially more heroic works. You know, rather than spending years on a suit of armor.
My Math should be fixed, please check though please.
Okay, my math was retarded screwed up.. I fixed it, this should be right now, someone check my math please still though.
Level 5 Blacksmith
+5 Ranks
+2 MW Tools
+3 Skill Focus Feat
+1 Int Bonus
= +11
Taking 1011 + 10 = 21
11 x 11 = 121 / 7 = 1721 x 15 / 7 = 45 + 17 = 52
52 / 8 = 6.5
Longsword = 75 Silver
With Mastery Value
12 Hours of Work = Longsword.58 (8 hour Days) MW Component
14.5 (24 Hour Days)
360 Hours
---------------------
Without Mastery Value
13.3 Hours for sword66.6 Days (70, 8 Hour Days) MW Component
DC 19
Cost 1,500 Gold
= 15000 SilverLevel 5 Blacksmith
+11121 Per Week
17 Per 8 Hours/Day
Taking 10
11+10 =2121 x 19 / 7 = 57 + 17 = 74
74 SP/Day (8 Hours)
111 SP/Day (12 Hours)
148 SP/Day (16 Hours)With Mastery Value
202.7 (Round) 203 Days to Make Full Plate Armor. (8 Hours)
-- 185 with Assistant135 Days (12 Hour Days)
101 Days (16 Hour Days)
-- 93 With AssistantWithout Mastery Value
263 Days to Make Full Plate Armor (8 Hour Days)
175 (12 Hour Days)
132 (16 Hour Days)
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Level 2 Assistant Blacksmith
+2 Ranks
+2 MW Tools
+3 Skill Focus
+1 Int Bonus= +7
7 x 7 = 49 / 7 = 7
If my math is all correct, I'm so far in favor of your idea.
However, I'm not sure if I like the multiply mastery value by 10 thing, maybe make it a max of x5 at DC +10
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I forgot something, the Trained Bonus you get, which is a +3.
So actually the LvL 5 blacksmith is getting a +14 with what I list.
Full Plate = DC 19
Cost = 15000 SPLevel 5 Blacksmith
+5 Ranks Craft
+3 Trained Bonus
+3 Skill Focus
+2 MW Tools
+1 Int Bonus
Take 10 + 14 = 2424 x 19 = 456 Silver Weekly / 7 = 65 Silver Day (8 Hours) +28
So I think that if you do 8 Hours daily, it takes 160 something days to make a Full Plate if my math is correct.
I make the following suggestion.
Remove your current multiplication values/DC's for the Mastery Value and replace with this.
-Multiply Mastery Value by Increment of 1*: +2 DC/Per Increment. Maximum Increment of 10.
So to multiply my Mastery Value by 3, it'd be a +6 to the DC instead of your +10, but in order to get a x10, it'd be +20 to DC.
How about you just buy that sword at a shop? Jeez :P
I just did some googling, apparently it'd take like
Uhm.. I think 12 Days to smelt the iron and such, and then make the sword. in total.
So like 12-13 Days to make a sword.. From what I googled, unsure if accurate but...
32.
15 X 15 / 7 = ?
150 / ? = 4.6 Days (8 hour Days)
Soo... If I am correct, or rather, if the information I googled is correct.
D&D already allows us to make items significantly faster than real life did. (IF the source is correct)
Assuming it is, WOW, good thing we don't take to realism in that aspect... Now is it >.> lol....
Oh, btw, did the new math.
24 x 23 = 552 / 7 = 78.8 (8)
14 x 14 = 196 / 7 = 28
28 x 2 = 56
78.8 + 56 = 134.8
15000 / 134.8 = 111
111 Days to make a Full Plate with Master Value Multiplied by 2.
DC 23
New suggestion, even though I feel like it's too much of a benefit, lol.
I'll explain these below.
-Reduce Material Cost to ?% of Original Item Cost*: +1 DC / Per 1 Below 50% ( Max DC +40 ).
-Multiply Mastery Value by Increment of 1*: +2 DC/Per Increment. ( Min +4 DC / Max +20 DC ).
So a Material Cost of 30% instead of 50%, will add an additional +20 to the DC.
Which means the item will be cheaper to make, and you'll make it faster >.>
Personally, instead of your system, or my suggestion to it.
I'd MUCH rather go with something like this, WHILE using your Master Value.
Item Crafting
When crafting an item you may usually pay 50% of the item's Original cost as materials for components to craft the item.
For each 1% that you spend in addition to the Original Cost you may add a 1 to the calculations of your check for the purpose of progress.
This means that if you require a Craft Check of 19 to create Full Plate Armor, you must meet those requirements on your own.
Meaning if you pay 52% instead on Material Components, you'll calculate your check as following instead.
19+2 x 19 = ?? Your New Result
Normally your check would not gain an additional bonus during the calculation.
Therefore if you were to pay 60% of the material components. Your check would be calculated as 19+10 x 19
= 11.6, 78.7
ALRIGHTY, I finished.
This is my very own Crafting House-Rules.
Tell me folks, what do you think?
Crafting Hourly, and Fatigue
Normally when crafting you craft by the week, however you are given the option of crafting by the day. Each day counts as having worked for 8 hours that day. You may opt to work for more than 8 hours in a day but are then subject to fatigue.For each hour of work beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +1 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d4 points of non-lethal damage. A character who takes any damage from forced work becomes fatigued. Eliminating the non-lethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It is possible for a character to work himself into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
A fatigued character in addition to the normal side-effects of fatigue, takes a -2 penalty to all Craft Checks.
Mastery Value
A characters Mastery Value is equal to their total Craft Bonus multiplied by 4. This Value is represented by an amount of silver pieces equal to the value which is a sign of the crafter's own expertise in the craft.When Crafting a character adds their Mastery Value to each session that they work on the item.
If a character has any assistants to aid him in the crafting of the item, they may also add their own Mastery Values to the items total completion if they succeed on a Craft Check with a DC of 10 lower than the Primary Crafter's final Craft DC.
Failure: If you fail a check by 4 or more, you add no Mastery Value for that week.
Special Materials
When using any special material to craft an item such as Adamantine, Mithral, or Alchemical Silver. Instead of adding the assigned materials price to the items creation goal, add 10% of that price instead. This means that in order to make an Adamantine Full Plate, you must pay 50% of the total items price in raw materials. Then for the total silver pieces required for the item to be finished. You only add 10% of the adamantine cost to that total.Thus the material component cost for an Adamantine Full Plate would 50% of the total cost, which would total 8,250 Gold Pieces. The amount of work that must be done to create such a work however, must only total 30,000 Silver Pieces. 15,000 Silver from the Full Plate, and 10 percent (15,000 Silver) from the Adamantine Material.
Raw Materials and Partially Crafted Works
When crafting an item you are normally required to pay only 50% of the total cost for raw materials. You may however, opt to pay a higher percentage of the total cost to decrease the time it takes to craft the item. For every 1% in addition to the 50% raw material cost that you pay, you may add 1 to the final calculation of your Craft checks before multiplication. This does not alter your Craft Modifier in any way, but merely allows you to purchase partially finished products for the final item, enabling you to finish the item at a quicker rate.Example
This means that if you pay 67% of the total item cost for raw materials instead of 50%. You'll add 17 to your Craft check after it has been made, before you multiply the total against the DC. Thus increasing the total amount of silver pieces generated to reach the items creation requirement.67% of total item cost paid for raw materials.
DC 19 Full Plate Armor.+5 Skill Ranks in Craft, +3 Skill Focus, +1 Intelligence. While Taking 10.
Craft Check = 19.Calculation Step: 19+17x19 ( Craft Check + Material Bonus x Craft DC = Progress )
So to multiply my Mastery Value by 3, it'd be a +6 to the DC instead of your +10, but in order to get a x10, it'd be +20 to DC.
I kind of like that sliding scale, but I don't know if it's really a good one. I went with big block modifiers to preserve overall simplicity, and the relevance of the mastery value diminishes if everyone commonly triples or quadruples the value. The peasant in my example #1 would easily triple his output by raising the DC by +4, and consequently produces something like 20 outfits with a single week of work. That means an almost totally unskilled peasant can turn 10 gp of profit with a single week of work, which destabilizes d&d economy in a big way if applied across the board. Like, even worse than the normal crafting rules.
How about you just buy that sword at a shop? Jeez :P
Thats what sensible adventurers would do, but there are crafting rules because not all adventurers are sensible. We're just discussing what would make them better.
Eyolf, about your crafting rules:
-The fatigue notation is useful, but I think including it in the craft section is a bit redundant since it's already more or less covered by the nonsleeping fatigue rules, etc. Embedding it in the craft section just encourages players to abuse them for the purposes of crafting, because a d4 nonlethal is *nothing* to higher level characters. By calling attention to that, you're going to end up with a lot of characters doing 16 hour days at the forge like they're nothing, which is obnoxious for verisimilitude. At least make them dig the rules up from the adventuring section of the book and haggle with the DM to accomplish that sort of thing :).
-The linear mastery value formula makes the mastery value almost irrelevant. Multiplying the modifier by 4 means that at high levels, it actually takes even longer to craft things than it used to. The whole point of rewriting the rules is so that things happen a bit quicker in this world of sorcery and high adventure than they might have in our own dark ages.
-I like the idea of not punishing players for attempting to work with more expensive materials. A mithril sword might take longer to craft than an iron one, but it shouldn't take ten times as long.
-Your idea of paying more and getting quicker results is well taken, but it also seems broken (even once we've corrected it for proper order of operations notation). Moreover, I have no idea how it interacts with the mastery value. Could you please run a step-by-step breakdown of crafting something like a masterwork longsword using your proposed system?
When you say this
because a d4 nonlethal is *nothing* to higher level characters. By calling attention to that, you're going to end up with a lot of characters doing 16 hour days at the forge like they're nothing, which is obnoxious for verisimilitude. At least make them dig the rules up from the adventuring section of the book and haggle with the DM to accomplish that sort of thing :).
I see this. The crafting work is not as intensive physically as a Forced March, hence why I DC, and the damage, HOWEVER. Yes 16 hours all the time.
But.. WHO in a game, Really has the time to sit around for consecutive periods of 16 hours in a blacksmithy pounding about at the sword they are crafting.
One must also take into account outside distraction, daily life, and of course food and water, or sleep. Yes, you could keep going by bypassing sleep for a bit, but eventually I'm guessing that a sensible and realistic DM is going to rule that you've become bored, and have decided to take a break from your smithing task to refresh yourself. That or you're going to die from fumes or something, or exhaustion, or pass out for a day or two, or more after having stayed up for a prolonged period.
So I don't see it as a problem.
---------------------------------------
This
-The linear mastery value formula makes the mastery value almost irrelevant. Multiplying the modifier by 4 means that at high levels, it actually takes even longer to craft things than it used to. The whole point of rewriting the rules is so that things happen a bit quicker in this world of sorcery and high adventure than they might have in our own dark ages.
Either I'm retarded, or I missed something, because I do not understand what in the nine hells you mean. How can it take longer, as you level, you're adding more silver pieces to the work per session, not less. Therefore, the work would get done FASTER, not slower.
It would not take longer, and in fact, by increasing DC's or bonuses, you essential DECREASE any time it takes to create something. The only possible way to actually INCREASE the time it takes to create something is NOT by altering the DC's or the Bonuses, but instead the items final TOTAL END COST.
Soooo.. That's what I understand from reading the crafting rules, and so you've stated several times in posts that it increases the time, makes it longer, and I'm just not understanding you.
So my options must be.
1. I misread something?
2. I'm missing something?
3. I'm retarded?
4. You're wrong.
I'm pretty sure it's the 4th one, but due to my self-doubting nature, I am inclined to open up the possibility that it may indeed definitely be myself. Meaning one of the 3 prior options. So I'm gonna go read the craft rules once again, and go over this slowly here to explain to both you, and myself.
================
================
Okay, I'm gonna go with that I missed something in your posts, as from what I can recall you keep saying that increasing the DC or adding silver to the progression rate increases the time in which it takes to craft the item. Which surely cannot be correct.
Increasing the DC would make the item more difficult to make, but would DECREASE the time to make it, and ADDING silver to the progression rate would only aid in the finishing of the product in a more timely matter.
Therefore, I am now assuming that I misread what you're saying about the time increasing.
As when the DC increases, the final silver output increases, and as you level, the additional silver increases from mastery value. Therefore giving you both ADDITIONAL silver from multiple sources, via DC, and Mastery Value.
Equaling a FASTER craft time, LESS TIME TO CRAFT.
Oh, and I noticed something, an error on my part.
It's 1/3 (33.3%) for Raw Material Cost
Not 50%.Unsure if you made the same mistake, but I know that I did!
I'm gonna go correct that in my studies.
Either I'm retarded, or I missed something, because I do not understand what in the nine hells you mean. How can it take longer, as you level, you're adding more silver pieces to the work per session, not less. Therefore, the work would get done FASTER, not slower.
Sorry, after rereading your rules, I see our problem is that you're using my notion of mastery value in an entirely different way than I did.
The point of having a mastery value is that it gives us a concrete number to define a craftsman's pace. This number is the monetary value a craftsman can produce over a period of time with a successful craft check. To craft, a craftsman takes the base cost of materials (typically 50% of final value) and rolls a craft check for one week of work. If successful, he adds his mastery value to the base materials. When the base materials plus the added value of the craftsman's mastery equal the item's final value, the item is complete.
Mastery Value
A characters Mastery Value is equal to their total Craft Bonus multiplied by 4. This Value is represented by an amount of silver pieces equal to the value which is a sign of the crafter's own expertise in the craft.When Crafting a character adds their Mastery Value to each session that they work on the item.
This was not completely clear. Are you saying that, in addition to the normal mechanics for crafting, a character adds their mastery value to the item's progress? That's generally what I think you mean, and I'll treat it as such, but what it does is trivialize the mastery value, and does nothing to improve the crafting system overall.
All you've done is make the base materials more expensive and ganked my notion of adding value, so that items get made in half the normal time. In short, I could replicate your base rules by just saying "take RAW craft times, and reduce them to approximately 45% original values"
This doesn't fix anything, it just defers the problem and makes some issues even more extreme.
Consider: I want a DC 15, 10 gp item. My modifier is +10.
RAW:
DC 15 * average check total of 20 = 300 sp of progress in one week. Investment is 3.33 gp per item, and I make 3 in a week. 20 gp profit.
Your way, as near as I can tell:
DC 15 * average check total of 20 = 300 sp of progress. I add my mastery value of 40 = 340 sp worth of work in one week. Initial investment is 5 gp per item, to which I only need to add 5 gp, so I produce 6.8 items in a week. 34 gp profit.
My way:
Check DC 15, no added modifiers. Mastery value = 100 sp of progress. Added to initial investment yields 2 items - 10 gp profit.
Now lets do something hard: I want a DC 20, 2000 GP item. My modifier is +30.
RAW:
DC 20 (raised to 30) * average result of 40 = 1200 sp progress per week. Item is finished in 16.66 weeks. Initial investment of 667 gp means 80 gp profit per week.
Your system:
DC 20 (you've mentioned no modifiers) * average result of 40 = 800 sp progress per week, plus mastery value of 120 sp = 920 sp progress per week. Initial investment of 1000 gp means item is finished in 10.8 weeks for a profit of 92.95 gp per week.
My system:
DC 20 (plus 20 for x10 mastery value). Mastery value of 900 * 10 = 9000 sp progress per week. Item is finished in 1.1 weeks, for a profit of 920 gp per week.
And now the real telling point: Lets have an almost entirely unskilled, unequipped peasant to do some work manufacturing DC 10, 1 gp items for us. His modifier is +1
RAW:
DC 10 * average result of 11 = 110 sp progress per week. He completes 11 items per week, for a weekly profit of 7.3 gp.
Your system:
DC 10 * average result of 11 = 110 sp of progress per week, plus mastery value of 4 sp = 114 sp of progress per week. Initial investment of 5 sp per item means he completes 22.8 items per week, for a profit of 11.4 gp.
My system:
DC 10. Mastery value 1 sp = 1 sp of progress per week. Initial investment of 5 sp means he will complete the item in 5 weeks, for 1 sp profit per week.
That unskilled laborer's subsistence salary is 3 gp per month. RAW makes him turn a ~30 gp per month profit with a skill that he is almost completely inept at. Your system bumps him up to ~45 gp per month. With my system, he starves to death, the way someone should if they're professionally engaged at something they suck at.
But we're heroes, why care about the peasant's craftwork? Because at the other end of the spectrum, craftspeople out of freaking legend are unable to outperform that peasant by a significant margin. Level 20 expert smiths still take months to create a suit of adamantine plate.
A level 15 expert with a modifier of +30 produces at the same rate as three level 3 craftspeople with a +10. Try comparing a level 15 fighter to three of his 3rd level associates and you'll start to notice a discrepancy.
EDIT
Oh, and I noticed something, an error on my part.
It's 1/3 (33.3%) for Raw Material Cost
Not 50%.Unsure if you made the same mistake, but I know that I did!
I'm gonna go correct that in my studies.
I chose 50% as a deliberate starting point, from which you can choose to reduce costs at the expense of raising the DC. It seemed like a fair balancing point to strike; I wanted people to be able to produce masterwork items with skill, rather than just spending lots of extra money.
OH HO, WOW did I f*@$ that up.
I did do what you said, however, not quite, it was even worse. I didn't require the price to increase.
It was simply pay 33%, get an extra random bonus to the progression equal to said value.
Finish Faster, more items, more money.
No extra money invested >.>
Safe to say that I removed that from my system pretty quick.
Um, how long can I really go before I roll a 1. If I have to roll a d20 50+ times to complete an item, that is a huge chance of a project getting scrapped.
Um, how long can I really go before I roll a 1. If I have to roll a d20 50+ times to complete an item, that is a huge chance of a project getting scrapped.
In my system, you scrap the project if you fail the craft check by 6 or more. There is, however, no incentive for rolling high, so most of the time you'll just take 10 and make normal progress. Additionally, the more skilled you are, the faster you make progress, and the fewer skill rolls you need to make, and consequently have fewer chances to roll low. If you need to roll higher than a 10 to succeed at the check, then you're pushing your luck, and your character really shouldn't be attempting huge, complicated craft projects anyhow. I'm fine with penalizing people for that. The only time a project is going to take the 50+ weeks to construct is someone with a terrible skill modifier attempting a very expensive item, and I really don't feel bad if a peasant with a +5 craft check simply can't complete a suit of full plate.
Totally ruining the project might be a bit drastic (depending on the craft), but I don't like how the base craft rules essentially let you throw money and time at the project until you stop failing checks. I don't like that anyone can accomplish anything, given enough money and time, without having to learn about it. That sort of persistent "doing it until it's done right" is better represented by increased skill ranks, or else a character who takes 5 tries to make an item the first time takes 5 times to make the item *every* time. That's silly.