So i was thinking about epic levels, as my group usually get to them in our game. We have a fairly quick level progression. Any way...
I've read the "suggestion" in the core rulebook, i've used the 3.5 epic level handbook, but neither of them sit well with me.
How about this. Once you hit 20th level all of your base stats stop increasing. What I mean is if you have a +17 BAB at 20th level once you level up it stays at +17. The same goes for your base saves (Fort, Ref, Will). Everything else stays the same, when you level you get your special abilities and class features just like normal. I haven't decided what to do about hit points and skill points, if they should continue to increase or not, or if they should increase differently.
I like this idea because it's simple, and i think it will maintain balance. I'm not the best at figuring balance. One thing to keep in mind, this method would require multi-classing, or for you to go in and do epic progression for base classes. I personally prefer multi-classing.
I'd love to get feed back on this. it seems like it might be a simple way to handle epic play until we get official rules.
Let me know what you think.
This is an interesting take on epic levels, but I don't like it. I don't particularly like how 3.5 epic nourished the goal to get a +16 BAB and as many caster levels as you can then switching out. I think that the class that you started off as before epic should still be valid after you hit lvl 20. Also if saves and BAB stop accruing you can't use any of the monsters in the epic handbook because they would be impossible to hit and the players would not be able to save against them. So unless you have the players continue to face CR 20 encounters you have to homebrew some monsters, and even the continues CR 20s face diminishing returns as you gain in level and need more and more xp but your income of xp remains fixed.
How about this. Once you hit 20th level all of your base stats stop increasing. What I mean is if you have a +17 BAB at 20th level once you level up it stays at +17. The same goes for your base saves (Fort, Ref, Will). Everything else stays the same, when you level you get your special abilities and class features just like normal. I haven't decided what to do about hit points and skill points, if they should continue to increase or not, or if they should increase differently.
One thing to consider is that the DCs for things like supernatural and extraordinary attacks are DC 10 + half the creature's Hit Dice + the creature's appropriate ability modifier. PCs whose base saves don't increase after 20th level are going to have a heck of a time saving against the special attacks of monsters with a high number of Hit Dice. For example, a devastation centipede has a poison attack with a DC of 83. Unless the PCs consistently roll 20's, no matter what level they are, they're not going to make their saves against that.
Another thing you'll need to consider is that monsters typically have an AC equal to their Challenge Rating + 15. Looking at the devastation centipede again, you'll notice that it has an AC of 55. That's going to be pretty tough for a PC to hit when they have a max BAB of +20. Even a character with a 50 Str (which is obscenely high) will have to roll a 15 or higher on each attack in order to hit such a creature. Meanwhile, the creature will have no problem attacking the PCs, what with its BAB of +96 and all.
I think if you want to make your idea viable, you'll need to consider changing how monsters with racial Hit Dice advance. Perhaps you could place caps on things like AC, BAB's and save DCs for special attacks. As you make these changes, you'll also have to consider how they affect creatures in the Monster Manual. After all, a great wyrm red dragon is considered a CR 27 creature. How will your changes affect a creature like this?
Your idea makes it seem like level 20 is infinite, sure you get new class abilities but that's it, you don't really "level" at that point. I really feel as though growth needs to be made from one level to the next (even if it's miniscule like "my BAB just went up 1/3 of a point"), if growth doesn't occur things get boring and there is less of a reason to continue playing.
I've argued for continuing all progressions with the classes stopping at 20 and prestige classes stopping at 10 (or the level listed in the books). I've changed spell DC's and most class abilities to equal 10+1/2 level+ability mod allowing for the saves to increase. so far the only problem is as your BAB increase (limit to 4 attacks regardless of bab) your ac doesn't increase without magic. I'm still working on how to fix this. I've thought about AC level bonuses after 20, equal to half your level. what do you think?
while everything you are saying makes sense, i don't think i was clear in my description. i would not use epic monsters if i used this idea, i would use existing CR 20 (and maybe a few steps higher) and just add some special abilities and change the flavor.
like i said this was just an idea that i thought of one day and thought i would bring it up.
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i think the best thing to consider are a few things:
1- level cap at 40
--certain spells such as mass cure critical wounds cap at level 40
--this also gives you a good range to make monsters for epic levels
2- BAB should continue after 20 per the class, but cap attacks at 4
3- saves should cap at 20th and begin to gain a epic +1 bonus every odd level
--this keeps the discrepancy between week saves and strong saves small
[I'm still on the fence about this one because monsters in the bestiary don't follow this ruling and would need to be changed accordingly]
4- AC should like-wise have a fair and valid way of continuing to go up into epic as it does in normal levels
5- class features should continue their obvious progressions
6- skill points should continue as normal
7- feats should continue as normal
8- hp should continue as normal
9- caster level and new spell levels should continue to progress as described in the Pathfinder RPG book.
there's my 2 copper
¬¬ Post wipe...
Well, long story short. I was thinking in a "Epic Bonus to AC" every even level ala
3- saves should cap at 20th and begin to gain a epic +1 bonus every odd level
as a reward for all those years of adventuring.