the Runeforge is a pretty cool concept but the AP's reasons for going there (and benefits obtained)are pretty weak.
At the beginning of AP4 it says on a metagame level they will find/create items to help them destroy the runewell- but this turns out to be incorrect. They do find how to make items that will help them a bit but destroying the runewell is not an option and destroying the soul gem (or whatever that thing is in the runewell i forget now)is a pretty poor option.
In reading Mockmurians notes at the end of AP4 he says he is looking for the hellfire flume with the traitor in it maybe to find the key or to personally destroy this site (which given he cant possibly know the scribbler will return is pretty lame- why does Karzoug or Mockmurian want the site of the scribblers death destroyed anyway)
then in AP5 the scribbler knows where the Runeforge is but doesnt have a key and you dont need one- you just have to know the site to get there (so that key idea is gone) and given Karzoug must know how to get to the runeforge then What is going on?
What I want is for the PC's to have a damn good reason to go to the Runeforge, and not one that turns out to be false.
What have other people tried and how has it worked?
Keep in mind that the Rise of the Runelords is written by 6 separate writers. Some incosistency (especially anticipating installments to come) is hard to avoid.
However, you could have Mokmurian/Karzoug search for the traitor's site hoping to find artifacts in the Catacombs of Wrath. Either Mokmurian could be fearing the wims of his master and wants to find an artifact of Alaznist that can protect him in such an event or Karzoug is searching for some final evidence of Alaznist's destruction/betrayal/whatever.
You could incorporate the Runewell of Wrath or the Shrine of Lamashtu to give them more purpose and tie the adventures together. Who knows, maybe Lamashtu had a finger in Karzoug's downfall and is even now plotting to betray him again... the lamia priestesses might be plotting to steal Karzoug's power...
I remember thinking this was kind of a tangent.
I won't be running it myself for months, but I will try and think up a better connection and tell you when I do.
Keep in mind that the Rise of the Runelords is written by 6 separate writers. Some incosistency (especially anticipating installments to come) is hard to avoid.
yes fair point- I re read my post and I was a bit unecessarily critical. Dont get me wrong my players and I are enjoying the adventure path it just seems the path from Jorgenfist would most likely lead them to Xin- Shalast, not the Runeforge and I want to get some reasons to send the players there.
yes fair point- I re read my post and I was a bit unecessarily critical. Dont get me wrong my players and I are enjoying the adventure path it just seems the path from Jorgenfist would most likely lead them to Xin- Shalast, not the Runeforge and I want to get some reasons to send the players there.
I do not think you where being unecessarily critical. You have a very valid point and your opininon is shared by other GMs as well.
In order to make a meaningful connection between the Runeforge and the rest of the AP, I think we as GMs have to rethink a bit how to fit it in in each of our campaigns. My group has only just finished HMM and I have therefore not thought out yet how to do it in my game.
I feared that my PCs don't want to go Runeforge but they were interested about that place because of couple of reasons.
First of all they found Mokmurian's diary wherein stone giant stated that somewhere near the coast line lies tomb of an enemy who knows Karzougs weakness. My group was really interested about Catacombs of Wrath and when they met Xaliasa they knew that they have found the enemy. I made Xaliasa more friendly than in original AP mainly beacause I had some plans about him [but that is different story]. Players trusted him and they helped each other to solve the riddle about Runeforge. Xaliasa wanted to go hiding in there and promised to help them with their quest to get something against big K. He didn't know what in Runeforge is important against Karzoug but if something against Karzoug has been created it should be in Runeforge.
Xaliasa also told them lot about Thassilonia and about who evil Runelords could be. Karzoug transforming people go gold and so on. I wanted that PCs knew that they know something about evil that threats Varisia. That was enough for them. Eventhough one of my players didn't trust Xaliasa he still believed that Runeforge existed. GMPC with lots of skill points in history is always helpful but with library in Jorgenfist you can prove doupting players that Runeforge is true.
So I didn't create something totally new but changed Xaliasa's motives about PCs. You could add that location of Xin-Shalast [and other cities of sin] is also in Runeforge although Spires of a Xin-Shalast starts with that. It could make more sense that Brodert Quink just tells them that some dwarf tried to found city of gold and their log might be helpful. If some your PCs is greedy Xaliasa could bluff that Runeforge is filled with treasure.
Runeforged weapons were awesome [or so my PCs think] but little more background about them could help. Immunity to harmful transmutaions is neat but when you look at Karzougs tactics in SoXS he stars combat with really powerful necromancy spells which killed two of my players in a instant [others could have died next round but fighter was lucky with his fly checks]. In SoXS PCs must look for Sihedron rings if they want to get through that force field around upper city. They look for weapons in SotS but then they don't need them so much in SoXS that I could have wanted them to need. I'll think something about runeforged weapons for my next group and shre these ideas with you.
Hopefully this helps. I'll write here again in some time.
Here#s my take on the Runeforge-hook:
the black monk in FOTSG will have a letter from Karzoug in his cryptic-cylinder-thingy.
In the letter (witch will sound a bit like Karzougs Princess Leia record in Burnt Offerings) Karzoug will tell that the starfall is about to happen and that he will go in hypernation.
He tells that his most faithfull servants will be raised when Karzoug awakens.
He will order the monks to destroy every hint to the location of the runeforge and xin-shalast from the library, because Karzoug will rest in Xin-Shalast and the at the runeforge enemies could find things that could hurt Karzoug while he waits.
The monk somehow became undead and could not be raised.
Mokmorian will have notes about a traitor that could be raised along wioth the faithfull and that this traitor could know the way into runeforge.
in that way I hope to solve the runeforge-hook problem along with the cryptic-cylinder-thingy-with-nothing-but-a-few-scrolls-in-it-problem
Here...
in that way I hope to solve the runeforge-hook problem along with the cryptic-cylinder-thingy-with-nothing-but-a-few-scrolls-in-it-problem
Also Teraktinus (FotSG) could have a letter from Mokmurian hinting at the importance of finding the traitors resting place at the hellfire flume.
Thanks- all good stuff. I think I will use a couple of those ideas.
I suppose also maybe Karzoug doesnt trust Mokmurian completely and so hasnt told him how to get to the Runeforge, he will go there himself when he awakens fully (though M has figured out about its existence from the library) and maybe M thinks if he can find the Runeforge before K wakes up he can get a bit of extra power, maybe even maneuver into eventually taking Karzoug out and becoming the Runelord of Greed in his place, he thinks Xaliasa has a key to the Runeforge from the info from Karzoug.
I have to admit I do have a soft spot for Mokmurian as a 'modern evil scientist tampering with things he shouldn't' + being a stone giant--awesome!
What I did to smooth out the story line was:
While Karzoug knows the location of the Runeforge, he doesn't want anyone else to know. He knew/suspected that the "traitor" may have known the location and wants to make sure that they didn't leave any record (this side steps how would Karzoug know that he was brought back by his goddess and explains why he wanted the search done).
The notes from Scribler indicated that the Runeforge may contain weapons that could destroy or help destroy any Runelord. I have changed the weapons a bit by requiring a component from all the areas to make "magebane" weapons, as I have not allowed that particular weapon quality in my campaign.
Also, I have an explanation as to why the surviving mages don't have maxed out magic items and lots of gear. There has been no new magical creation components entering the forge for the last 10 000 years, so that limits on what can be created, enchanted or enhanced.
I have modified all of the mages left in the runeforge to have both an arcane bond and the eschew material feat.