It's been some time since I've been to Paizo, but I my friend and I have a quick question...
Is there any existing way for a wizard or sorcerer to use their Wis score for spell casting instead of their Int? Feat? Variant rule? Prestige class? Etc...
Any help would be greatly appreciated...
-Kurocyn
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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It's been some time since I've been to Paizo, but I my friend and I have a quick question...
Is there any existing way for a wizard or sorcerer to use their Wis score for spell casting instead of their Int? Feat? Variant rule? Prestige class? Etc...
Any help would be greatly appreciated...
-Kurocyn
There's nothing in the rules that would allow that, no. There's really nothing stopping you from just SAYING it works that way, though. I'm curious to know what kind of concept or explanation is behind this idea, though. Is it anything that couldn't be done with a druid or even a cleric (who DO cast with WIS)?
My friend and I ask because he had a half-golem wizard concept in mind, but the half-golem's template is packing some hefty ability adjustments. Our focus is the -6 to Int.
Neither of us are against simply house-ruling a solution, but I find in-game rulings to be easier to work with.
As for using an alternate class, I had suggested cleric to him. But given the desired feel of his character concept, I don't think cleric quite measures up.
And thanks for the quick response Fatespinner. ^ ^
-Kurocyn
Bastards and Bloodlines is a Green Ronin product. It's basically the big book of crossbreeds (like, say, half-elf, half-unicorn).
It has the feat, Lost Tradition, which changes your casting stat. It's a bloodline feat, which basically means you have to be some sort of cross-breed freak to qualify, but I'd say half-golem meets that.
As for official WotC material? Nothing I know of changes casting stat.
As for other classes? The Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) uses wisdom to determine the highest level of spells that can be used, and may be more palatable than Cleric. Alternately? The Ardent (Complete Psionic) is completely wisdom-based, very scholarly and could well be highly appropriate for a wizard.
As another option, Dragonfire Adept and particularly Warlock are both pseudocasters who don't actually need their stats at any particular value to use their abilities, though -6 Cha is going to thrash their invocation DCs, and if you fail the will save and lose your Con score, the breath weapon pretty much becomes garbage, too.
Incarnum classes are essentially a form of constitution-based magic, in a manner of speaking, though again, the loss of constitution would be devastating; in this case, complete loss of almost all class abilities. There's a feat that allows undead to use wisdom instead of constitution, but that's undead.
From Tome of Magic, Binder is an option; they don't actually need charisma. It determines supernatural ability DCs, but they don't actually need it to use class features; the binding check doesn't actually affect their ability to use vestiges' abilities.
And yet another option! Don't use the half-golem template for this character in the first place. A Warforged Wizard could be a good representation of a half-golem wizard.
You're supposed to try and get around consequences of racial choice as you capitalize on the benefits. It's why more halflings are finesse two-weapon Rogues than brute force zweihander Barbarians, and why more orcs are Barbarians rather than Wizards. The fundamental question is, "How can I execute this concept and not suck?" which is a perfectly fair question. There are a great many ways to use magic that does not dependent on intelligence or charisma. There is nothing at all wrong with looking for the most appropriate such path when you're eating huge penalties to two stats.
If you're looking for a rules appropriate answer than one I suggested is best. Wizards are INT casters, brainy types, it's the core concept of the class. If you're looking to be an arcanist that doesn't rely on INT than Sorcerer as I suggested is the path to be considered. If you're looking for a Wizard whose casting path is Strength, Constitution, then you're out of luck unless you make up your own rules or your DM does it for you. Houserule to your hearts content... it doesn't need to be validated here.
A wizard is a scholar whose studies grant her the ability to tell the laws of the universe where to stick it. One does not need to be a Wizard to be a wizard. What's more, just because one's power source is scholastic does not mean its effectiveness has to be keyed off of intelligence.
Even in our world, there are many ways the mind may approach the same problem. One mind might deftly manipulate the data and facets of the problem to come up with a clever and simple tool that handles the situation efficiently. Another might tackle the problem head on, abandoning all finesse in favor of plowing through every aspect one-by-one until it discovers a way to force a resolution. A third may get a general sense of the situation, develop a feel for how aspects act together, as well as for how she would prefer the situation play out, and then intuitively feel out a path by which the situation and her preferences will flow together in harmony. A fourth may draw on extensive personal experience and training and recycle a solution that has worked once before.
There are many notions of the scholar and of the wizard, and none of them necessarily have to be keyed off of intelligence. Asking if there is something akin to Ancestral Knowledge (a feat that allows dwarves to make Knowledge checks off of their wisdom rather than intelligence) that applies to Wizard casting is perfectly valid. And do note that the question was specifically about having the character based off of wisdom, not some theoretical strength- or constitution-based caster. Wisdom-based casters are a long-established paradigm within the game.
There are also reasonable limits as to one could expect to get away with it. That's why the word choice exists, because when you choose you're closing off one possibility in favor of another. If you choose to have an INT 7 Fighter, one of the things you close off with that choice is Combat Expertise and it's dependent tree which requires an INT of 13. You want to incorporate something in your build that's usually mindless so the resulting hybrid is something that by it's very nature is not conducive to wizardry. That's a choice and choices have thier price. And in this case the price is that you will suck or not even be able to function as a wizard.
Just as there are many ways to increase your AC without Combat Expertise, there are likewise many ways to approach the concept of wizardry besides the Wizard class, and not all of them rely on an extremely high intelligence or charisma score. What's more, alternate classes have already been labeled fair game. An Ardent is a wizard in every sense right out of the box, a scholar whose studies let her tell the laws of the universe where to stick it, yet she is a wisdom-based class. Her studies focus on understanding the world and the multiverse in order to manipulate it, rather than on memorizing spells. A Warlock as a scholar who sought out, bargained with, and acquired power from some cosmic overpower is a perfectly valid wizard. A Binder as a scholar of the occult is a perfectly valid wizard, and is in fact a far more traditional model of 'wizard' than the Wizard class.
Now the thing is to ask why do you want to build a wizard this way? Are you looking to make a caster who's mostly made of metal? Then go warforged. Are you looking to cheesemonkey strength as a casting stat... go look for a supportive DM.
I'd like to point out that you're the only person in this thread who's even used the word 'strength' up to this point in the thread. In fact, the request is focused on wisdom.
@Kurocyn: Another possibility I forgot to mention, though it is extremely feat-intensive. Arcane Disciple adds spells from a single domain to an arcane caster's list. These spells are based off of wisdom, rather than your normal casting stat. Mind that these are added to your spell list, rather than spells known, so this tends to be better for Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer, who know every spell on their spell list by default.
If there's a god in your setting with 6-8 good domains, then you could, in theory, make this work. However, there are some harsh constraints, not the least of which being that these domain spells are limited to 1/day each, so even if you know Dispel Magic through a domain and have five third-level spell slots, you're only using Dispel Magic once per day, making it the equivalent of permanent spell prep. And there's a very real chance that your spells per day at some levels will exceed your number of domains, which means you're liable to run out of wisdom-based spells entirely until you have, like, eight instances of Arcane Disciple. It's not a very good solution, but it is an option.
Also, the third-party book Secrets of Pact Magic is like what Tome of Magic would be if it was all about Binders (read: Much better). It places even greater importance on charisma in many ways (though there is a wisdom-based binding class in there), so it may not be what you're looking for, but it's certainly worth a look if you can get your hands on it.
Thanks for all of the advise Viletta. ^ ^
I haven't really had a chance to discuss this with my friend, but I think he's okay with making the PC a cleric.
If we were to go through with the variant wizard concept though, I believe that Viletta hit the nail on the head.
Something similar to Zen Archery or the Ancestral Knowledge feat that Viletta mentioned would be perfect. Any thoughts on creating such a feat? Prerequisites? Possible drawbacks?
Are you looking to make a caster who's mostly made of metal? Then go warforged. Are you looking to cheesemonkey strength as a casting stat... go look for a supportive DM.
No, my friend is looking to make a half-golem caster. Not iron man with a wand.
And no, LazarX, we are not trying to make a STR caster. Most threads are objective based and reading the thread prior to posting helps everyone achieve this.
-Kurocyn
No problem.
If you want to homebrew the feat? The Bastards and Bloodlines version has no prerequisites of significance (save 'you must be some sort of freaky half-breed'), and simply changes the casting stat wholesale from one mental stat to the other, which would be fair enough in my book.
However, there are some simple ways to restrict it. First, it may not adjust every aspect of casting. It may only change the stat used to determine the highest level of spells you can use, along with either bonus spells or save DCs, keeping the original casting stat at least somewhat relevant.
Alternately, you can apply a prerequisite that the original casting stat be at least 13 to qualify for the feat.
And going Warforged is not a bad suggestion; the race is a well-balanced and simple PC construct that can be used to represent a half-golem quite well. You don't necessarily need the Half-Golem template to have a character who is a half-golem.
I am gonna throw in with the refluffing warforged as well. You will still get that half golem feel without the Int penalty. Just use the warforged stats and if ya make him a reanimated corpse encased in iron, or a half man/half golem thing so be it.
In Races of Destiny, the Illumian race has a racial feature called power sigils. You get two that each boost a stat; together they form a power word that does something else. One of them allows for Strength as a casting stat, another allows for Dexterity.
If you use the half-golem template on an illumian, which makes sense since illumians are pretty near constructs anyway, and use the strength casting power word, you might have a good non-Int caster.
It's not that I am against warforged PCs, it's just that they are not what he wants. He wants a half-golem. Not just something with a half-golem feel/look to it.
The PC my friend is making was a wizard who was quite literally made into a half-golem against his will. This all goes into his back story and motivations obviously, but he developed the character concept from reading the template's flavor.
And he's a pretty loyal human player, so alternate base races aren't even an issue.
As for the custom feat, requiring the original casting stat to be 13 sounds good. It's simple and doesn't do anything that hasn't already been done.
Thanks for the advice everyone. ^ ^
-Kurocyn
Glad to help.
In Races of Destiny, the Illumian race has a racial feature called power sigils. You get two that each boost a stat; together they form a power word that does something else. One of them allows for Strength as a casting stat, another allows for Dexterity.
Actually, those sigils don't change your casting stat outright. They only change which stat you use to determine bonus spells.
