I'm considering removing the Stat boosting magic items and replacing them with a free stat point [SP] at every even numbered level [feat/SP/feat/SP etc.].
I'd allow 25 point buy to start with.
I could just open the SP boosts to any stat every even level,
or,
a Physical SP at levels 2, 6, 10, 14 & 18, and a Mental SP at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 & 20.
I'd like to see players using other magic items in their Headband & Belt slots.
What do you guys think?
There's a couple issues..
Your system allows for a max of +10 in to a single stat (if someone is focusing).
The old system is more likely to grant +11 in a single stat, with a possible +6 in one to five more stats (if they have the cash, 41 points towards their stats).
Basically, your proposed system is "about equal" for a class that is only focusing on boosting that single stat (usually arcane casters, since they have very little MAD otherwise), is "poor" for any martial class (as they usually require minimum 2 stats, if not all three physical stats to be good), and "terrible" for any hybrid or otherwise MAD class (Monk, Paladin, Ranger, etc) since they need 4 or more stats boosted at times.
Now, if you are granting a bonus towards all physical or all mental at every 2 levels, that's different... and far more workable (although may end up being more powerful).
There's a couple issues..
Your system allows for a max of +10 in to a single stat (if someone is focusing).
The old system is more likely to grant +11 in a single stat, with a possible +6 in one to five more stats (if they have the cash, 41 points towards their stats).
Basically, your proposed system is "about equal" for a class that is only focusing on boosting that single stat (usually arcane casters, since they have very little MAD otherwise), is "poor" for any martial class (as they usually require minimum 2 stats, if not all three physical stats to be good), and "terrible" for any hybrid or otherwise MAD class (Monk, Paladin, Ranger, etc) since they need 4 or more stats boosted at times.
Now, if you are granting a bonus towards all physical or all mental at every 2 levels, that's different... and far more workable (although may end up being more powerful).
That's a good point, MAD classes suffer.
Maybe if I offer the option to either start with physical or mental to each player and then at each even numbered level that player gains a +2 bonus to a stat of their choice, but limit it a little by saying that consecutive boosts in either physical or mental can't be on the same stat.
So a Paladin [for example] chooses to start with physical.
level 2 get a +2 to Stength.
level 4 get a +2 to say Charisma
level 6 get a +2 to either Dex or Con as Strength was chosen at level 2
level 8 get a +2 to a non Charisma mental stat
level 10 he can now choose Strength again
etc.
So those wanting to pump less stats can do so but only a maximum of +6 by level 18 or 20 and those who want to boost multiple stats can do so.
So a maximum of +6 to any one stat by level 18/20.
Well, don't forget levels give up to +5 that stacks with the +6 enhancement.
So if you take out the enhancement bonus from items, and push it into the levels, you are looking at reducing the high-end stats for optimized characters.
Then again, it depends on if the stat boosting spells are still around, since they'd stack still. It would force the stat boosting into the realm of temporary effects.
This might be getting a bit complicated though. Sometimes it's hard to remember what you picked for something 4 to 8 levels ago.
.
Here's my suggestion:
Follow the Ranger's Favored Enemy mechanic.
2nd lvl: +1 to first stat choice
4th lvl: +2 to first
6th lvl: +3 to first, +1 to second choice
8th lvl: +4 to first, +2 to second
10th lvl: +5 to first, +3 to second, +1 to third choice
12th lvl: +6 to first, +4 to second, +2 to third
14th lvl: +7 to first, +5 to second, +3 to third, +1 to fourth choice
16th lvl: +8 to first, +6 to second, +4 to third, +2 to fourth
18th lvl: +9 to first, +7 to second, +5 to third, +3 to fourth, +1 to fifth choice
20th lvl: +10 to first, +8 to second, +6 to third, +4 to fourth, +2 to fifth
Math:
Regular D&D's highest stat is given 5 (lvl) + 6 (enhancemnt) = +11
Suggestion's highest stat is given +10.
Result: Nearly the same.
Bonus: The progression is easier to remember. Pick your stats you want boosted in the order of importance.
This does mean the character has a bonus to nearly every single stat by the end game, however that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just makes sense that by 20 levels of adventuring experience, a Fighter might just've picked up a bit of Intelligence or Charisma, and a Wizard just might've toned up a little muscle.
I would definitely not allow stacking with the Stat boosting spells. I might even suggest removing them completely, except that they are good for low levels and animal companions, etc, so just making them not stack would be good enough I think.
Overall, the character will end up with the equivalent of a +6 to three stats item, and an additional +4 and +2 to a couple others. That's the equivalent of roughly 160k worth of equipment (about 1/5th of a 20th level character's expected wealth). The +6 to three stats is something they will likely have tried getting anyways, and the +4 and +2 totals about 20k on it's own.. not a big deal at high levels.
Since they are getting these for free though, you might want to reduce the wealth you toss the character's way, or adjust their CR up a level to account for this disparity in power.
Or, more simply, just use a slower experience progression than you originally intended (medium instead of fast, etc).
Hi,
I've been working on something similar, except that my goal was the removal of mostly all magic items.
I've put my system here.
I essentially, for stat items, give +2, starting at level 7 (I found it breaks the WBL guidelines otherwise), every three levels, but you can't raise to +4 until three stats have been boosted.
So the progression goes something like this:
L7: +2
L10: +2/+2
L13: +2/+2/+2
L16: +4/+2/+2
etc.
I'm thinking of actually going every two levels, but still starting at level 7:
L7: +2
L9: +2/+2
L11: +2/+2/+2
L13: +4/+2/+2
...
L19: +6/+4/+4
DW
Use the stat progression from the Vow of Poverty, and you're pretty much good to go. Just remember to remove inherent bonuses from the game.
==Aelryinth
One idea I had was give people different 'blessings' which replicated items, giving it some character.
For example:
Blessed of the Bear
1 +1 Str
2 +1 Str, +1 Con
3 +1 Str, +1 Con, +1 natural armor
4 +2 Str, +1 Con, +1 natural armor
5 +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 natural armor
6 +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 natural armor, + bear form or mighty form
Bear form: 5 minutes a day, can take the form of a black bear (treat exactly like Beast Shape I). Can split up minutes, but each use counts as a minimum of 1 minute.
Mighty form: Mighty fists (+1 enchantment to unarmed strikes and natural attacks), +1 dodge bonus
I was mainly interested in E6, so that's as far as I went, but there are lots of cool ways you could do this.
I don't like the stat boosting items either, so i just limited them to +2
Heroic Pathes are a good thing for E6, that or just random abilities and things.
What you have there Timmins is in essence a Heroic Path.
Heroic Pathes are from the midnight campaign setting.
Well, don't forget levels give up to +5 that stacks with the +6 enhancement.
So if you take out the enhancement bonus from items, and push it into the levels, you are looking at reducing the high-end stats for optimized characters.
Then again, it depends on if the stat boosting spells are still around, since they'd stack still. It would force the stat boosting into the realm of temporary effects.This might be getting a bit complicated though. Sometimes it's hard to remember what you picked for something 4 to 8 levels ago.
.
snip
I would make the bonuses "Enhancement" so they don't stack with Cat's Grace etc.
My intention is to lower the power-gaming and promote character development by level/design rather than by magic item boosts [gp's].
Your solution is fine for power-gaming but I'm certainly not going to offer anything higher than +6.
Using my system...
By level 16 you could have...
+4/+4 or +4/+2/+2 in both Physical & Mental stats. As this tends to be around where the PF-AP's finish the +6 probably wouldn't feature [a good thing in my mind]. I think those boosts would fit both MAD and non-MAD classes.
Hi,
I've been working on something similar, except that my goal was the removal of mostly all magic items.
I've put my system here.
I essentially, for stat items, give +2, starting at level 7 (I found it breaks the WBL guidelines otherwise), every three levels, but you can't raise to +4 until three stats have been boosted.
So the progression goes something like this:
L7: +2
L10: +2/+2
L13: +2/+2/+2
L16: +4/+2/+2
etc.I'm thinking of actually going every two levels, but still starting at level 7:
L7: +2
L9: +2/+2
L11: +2/+2/+2
L13: +4/+2/+2
...
L19: +6/+4/+4DW
You system is nice but penalizes non-MAD classes that need to focus their bonuses. What's a Wizard going to want with +2 in anything other than Int? Maybe Con & Dex but they wouldn't choose those. You're forcing them to spread their bonuses which I'm trying not too.
It's very tricky to balance the system to suit both MAD and non-MAD classes!
Doesn't RAW rules limit the attribute bonuses you can apply to a single attribute anyway (in regards to limiting SAD classes?) I thought that the PF rules had specific slots that could be used to boost any stat. But my memory might we weak about that.
I'm going with a +1 bonus every level (in lieu of the +2 at 4/8/12/16.)
The design intent is to start the characters off pretty darned powerful, but have a much flatter growth curve as the lack of attribute bonuses will have them pretty typical by level 10. The game will get more and more challenging as they level up, although they'll get more and more options to overcoming those challenges.
Each character will get a single permanent magic item that will grow with them, but it won't be adding attribute bonuses.
There will be a fair of semi-permanent magic items. Those will either be charge limited or be prone to failure or decline in power as the magic is drained from the ioun stone powering it. I am also looking to create an enhanced mundane weapon/armor quality system similar to the one posted here.
Hi,
I've been working on something similar, except that my goal was the removal of mostly all magic items.
I've put my system here.
I essentially, for stat items, give +2, starting at level 7 (I found it breaks the WBL guidelines otherwise), every three levels, but you can't raise to +4 until three stats have been boosted.
So the progression goes something like this:
L7: +2
L10: +2/+2
L13: +2/+2/+2
L16: +4/+2/+2
etc.I'm thinking of actually going every two levels, but still starting at level 7:
L7: +2
L9: +2/+2
L11: +2/+2/+2
L13: +4/+2/+2
...
L19: +6/+4/+4DW
You system is nice but penalizes non-MAD classes that need to focus their bonuses. What's a Wizard going to want with +2 in anything other than Int? Maybe Con & Dex but they wouldn't choose those. You're forcing them to spread their bonuses which I'm trying not too.
It's very tricky to balance the system to suit both MAD and non-MAD classes!
Actually, SAD classes are already at an advantage at character creation. It's why I don't necessarily see the need to widen the gap. They get the same enhancement on their main stat as MAD and gain advancements on secondary ones. Don't forget that there is no need for all mental or all physical stats only (as per the multi stats items).
Regards,
DW
My intention is to lower the power-gaming and promote character development by level/design rather than by magic item boosts [gp's].
Your solution is fine for power-gaming but I'm certainly not going to offer anything higher than +6.
You might be confusing the term "powergaming". A person who is powergaming can still do so even in a low-power system. Powergaming means to try and eek out every little bit of power that the system allows (whereas a munchkin is trying to be disruptive in doing it, or try to find the questionable loopholes).
What you are looking for then, is to play a low-powered game. That's fine, as long as you recognize that you are doing so.
If the players reach the mid to high levels (12+), your artificial limits will put them at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the CRs they would normally face.
If you intend to limit their upper cap in stats, you might want to keep an eye on the encounters you send against them.
Personally, I'm much more in favor of playing an E6 game when it comes to playing a low powered game. It really catches the feel of a low-power setting.