I won't say it never happens but, I bet every publisher has a setting they would like to be publishing but it does not meet their requirements for a marketing and potential profit. (Really probably more than one)
Now if your talking about a 100,000 word completed professional manuscript (bonus if its been profesionally edited), that is something else but, then again most of these folks don't take unsolicited submissions. Of course you could get lucky and have the right manuscript at the right time.
Nothing stops you form trying and if you fail, publishing it yourself.
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
The biggest issue beyond writing the setting is getting the artwork. The standard is 1 full page of art work for every 3 pages of text (1,500 words roughly). So a 15,000 word document needs 10 piece of art (roughly $100 per full page) and 30 page of text. And let's not even talk about the cover.
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The biggest issue beyond writing the setting is getting the artwork. The standard is 1 full page of art work for every 3 pages of text (1,500 words roughly). So a 15,000 word document needs 10 piece of art (roughly $100 per full page) and 30 page of text. And let's not even talk about the cover.
Ah. Explains the use of free art from Wikipedia, etc.
A setting is writing-intensive and art-intensive. Once you have the thing written, you have to create a market for it, since there are no existing fans of your game world. I think settings make some of the best products, but they are not the first product you take to market. Whether you do it yourself or through another company, you need to establish a reputation as a writer before you can have a good chance of pulling something like this off.
You could also find an artist whose work you like and make them a co-owner and share the profits with them instead of paying per piece for art.
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You could also find an artist whose work you like and make them a co-owner and share the profits with them instead of paying per piece for art.
Another option would be to find an artist whose art fits your theme and persuade them to invest their art in your setting as a way to springboard their work into the spotlight. You're not forming a partnership, but promising some return later if only in the form of spreading their art and listing their contact info inside the product as a form of advertising. Somewhat similar to artists who allow fan sites to use their works without paying as long as they link to their site. Established artists won't do it most likely, but an up and coming artist might be more open to it.
You could also find an artist whose work you like and make them a co-owner and share the profits with them instead of paying per piece for art.
It really isn't worth it to do if you are the artist. Most astist know that a RPG might sell 1K to 2.5K copies at the MOST so it is not a good deal for them to take a percentange. Plus they have to wait for the product to sell to get their money instead of getting it up front and not have to worry how well the product does to get paid. Welcome to the world of publishing.
Another option would be to find an artist whose art fits your theme and persuade them to invest their art in your setting as a way to springboard their work into the spotlight. You're not forming a partnership, but promising some return later if only in the form of spreading their art and listing their contact info inside the product as a form of advertising. Somewhat similar to artists who allow fan sites to use their works without paying as long as they link to their site. Established artists won't do it most likely, but an up and coming artist might be more open to it.
This only works in theory. Any artist who does good work will want to get paid. The only people who do "art as advertising" are bad artist and the quality of their work is not that good. If you are a good artist, people will seek you out. People don't seek out OK of bad artist. Plus with all the stock art out there, you could save money and time and use it.
If one has a complete setting, is it better to go through established third-party publishers like Adamant, LDJ, Cubicle 7, etc., to sell it, or try to create one's own company to do so? Would especially like to hear from 3PPs on this question.
"Better" is, of course, a very subjective word. If you're just looking to get the setting published with few headaches then you're probably better off looking for a 3PP whose products most closely match the setting and then query them about it. On the other hand, if you'd prefer total creative control and have a bunch of money lying around (as LPJ indicated; and lets not forget about cartography and general company setup costs) then self-publishing might be the way to go. If the manuscript already has been given the once- (or twice-) over from a professional editor than it's a little more likely a company will at least look at it.
Hope that helps!
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On top of everything else, be aware that companies may be much less willing to produce it as a print product than as a pdf. While there are real costs in art, editing, layout and marketing for any full-sized campaign book, printing is also a big cost. And warehousing, and shipping. It ups the risk.
Which is not to so no one will do it. There are ways to manage those risks, if a company believes in a product. But it is a different calculation. And, of course, not every book is best presented as a print product.
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If one has a complete setting, is it better to go through established third-party publishers like Adamant, LDJ, Cubicle 7, etc., to sell it, or try to create one's own company to do so? Would especially like to hear from 3PPs on this question."Better" is, of course, a very subjective word. If you're just looking to get the setting published with few headaches then you're probably better off looking for a 3PP whose products most closely match the setting and then query them about it. On the other hand, if you'd prefer total creative control and have a bunch of money lying around (as LPJ indicated; and lets not forget about cartography and general company setup costs) then self-publishing might be the way to go. If the manuscript already has been given the once- (or twice-) over from a professional editor than it's a little more likely a company will at least look at it.
Hope that helps!
It does. Thanks!
On top of everything else, be aware that companies may be much less willing to produce it as a print product than as a pdf. While there are real costs in art, editing, layout and marketing for any full-sized campaign book, printing is also a big cost. And warehousing, and shipping. It ups the risk.Which is not to so no one will do it. There are ways to manage those risks, if a company believes in a product. But it is a different calculation. And, of course, not every book is best presented as a print product.
We originally had an established Northwest coast publisher that was working on our Campaign setting, and literally after two years they still had a heck of a time doing the layout and getting everything right, it was a very painful process we ended up dropping the publisher and didn't redo the publishing contract and then we spent the next 3 years going through the self-publishing process. LBj is right, it is very painful and expensive which is why we have softcover of the 3.5 version of Dredan but not the Pathfinder Compatible. Print costs either POD or just regular printer needs to have a large quantitiy of printing done before it becomes profitable. Which is why you see so many PDF's and not so many books. The only thing that is worth it, personal experience here, is professional editing. We were lucky that the artwork for our book was "in house" and RW is very talented.
Better as Pdf than print?
Our current patronage project, Breaking of Fostor Nagar a pathfinder rpg compatible adventure designed for use with virtual table top software.
I have actively avoided print while I learned more about the bussiness end, along the way we have developed a stable of authors, editors, artists, graphic designers ect.
We have managed our risk on high end products with Patronage Projects using Wolfgang Baur's Open Design business model, as well as adopting what LPJr does with Neo-Exodus (and now Obsidian Twilight, and Pirates of the Bronze Sky) we are releasing our Questhaven setting as small pdfs, allowing us to supplement the costs.
I don't have any experience selling an idea to a publisher (other than folks trying to sell me their ideas, and we have bought into Jade Oath, Virtual Tabletops, and something else I can't talk about) as all my experience is with work for higher as a freelancer.
I do think you can find quality new artists for a lesser costs that what JPjr but I am known to be an even cheaper SOB than LPJ ;)
Our current patronage project, Breaking of Fostor Nagar a pathfinder rpg compatible adventure designed for use with virtual table top software.
That will be a new market tat I think a lot of PDF publisher will start breaking into.
We have managed our risk on high end products with Patronage Projects using Wolfgang Baur's Open Design business model, as well as adopting what LPJr does with Neo-Exodus (and now Obsidian Twilight, and Pirates of the Bronze Sky) we are releasing our Questhaven setting as small pdfs, allowing us to supplement the costs.
The small parts of the larger product model is one of the truly successful business models out there. I know it has worked for me, Adamant and even Ronin Arts (when he was in the business).
I do think you can find quality new artists for a lesser costs that what JPjr but I am known to be an even cheaper SOB than LPJ ;)
I admit I am a CHEAP bastard in the artwork arena. LOL!!!! But I also look at 100 artist to find 10 that I think might work with only 1 actually taking the amount I ask for. 100:10:1 ratio with art. If you do that you will find good artists.
I think a lot depends on what sort of role you want for yourself around your work. Assuming (and its a fairly big assumption) your setting can make someone else excited the question really becomes: "Where to from there?"
If you think that you would like to write a body of stuff beyond the setting I would suggest you publish it yourself and keep control and profits.
If you want your work to be read and either the fame is more important than the money or you think that you will not have the time to create more material I would find a publisher you like.
There are a great many projects that are not ready for publication. Getting them there is hard, potentially expensive, work. Depending on your work you may have a greater need for the support a publisher can offer (and needs payment for). Editing, product polishing, process, and experience are essential to a good product. If you have them yourself great! If you don't then everyone may be better off to share the proceeds of a better product.
There is also something to be said for opening your setting for people to simply download and use. You get instant fame among people who are grateful to get your work because they haven't had to pay for it. You may never make any money from it but you can limit your expenses to a bare minimum and avoid some of the production costs of a commercial project. Its not a free ride in terms of copyright and quality but you may find more goodwill using this approach. I don't doubt that there are projects out there that didn't make any money or made so little that they'd be happier giving it away.
Sigurd
Of course, YMMV
You could also find an artist whose work you like and make them a co-owner and share the profits with them instead of paying per piece for art.It really isn't worth it to do if you are the artist. Most astist know that a RPG might sell 1K to 2.5K copies at the MOST so it is not a good deal for them to take a percentange. Plus they have to wait for the product to sell to get their money instead of getting it up front and not have to worry how well the product does to get paid. Welcome to the world of publishing.
There is always someone out there looking for their first break. It does mean being really patient, approaching the situation with a lot of integrity and making sure the person you are working with is getting the experience they were looking for. It also means turning down a bunch of talented people who either don't work in the style you need or simply aren't quite ready to be published. Finally, you have to be pretty strict about art direction and asking for revisions. Neither you nor the artist benefits from a half-way finished piece of art that does not reflect well on the product as a whole.
The bottom line is: you are paying someone very little money. I would not suggest a royalties model. Just pick a very small of money and then find someone willing to work for it. It's honest, it means the artist gets something, and it conveys respect for their hard work, and you end up working with people with more realistic ideas about working in a creative field. Royalties is a sneaky way of saying, "I'm paying you $7 for $100 worth of work." You're better off making sure the product is something you can really believe in and paying somebody $25 or whatever you can afford.
I won't say encouraging artists to hope for that "big break" is necessarily predatory, but it doesn't encourage a healthy mindset. Making it in a creative field is usually a long, hard slog, and the whole thing works better if you and the artist and everyone else is united in your vision of making it, one garage publication at a time.
Is it better to have the manuscript all prepped up (ie., document, art inserted, etc.) first to present to the publishers? Or just a summary and outline?
I would definitely not send a complete manuscript to a publisher without querying them first about it. Is it good to have it all ready and polished? Yes. Is it good to have art with it? That's something to ask the publisher about before you send the whole enchilada. Some publishers might appreciate already having art with the piece but others may prefer their own established artists. Always go with "less is more" when presenting yourself to a publisher--give them a taste and then reel them in if they bite. :)
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Is it better to have the manuscript all prepped up (ie., document, art inserted, etc.) first to present to the publishers? Or just a summary and outline?I would definitely not send a complete manuscript to a publisher without querying them first about it. Is it good to have it all ready and polished? Yes. Is it good to have art with it? That's something to ask the publisher about before you send the whole enchilada. Some publishers might appreciate already having art with the piece but others may prefer their own established artists. Always go with "less is more" when presenting yourself to a publisher--give them a taste and then reel them in if they bite. :)
Coolio. Thanks, TrickyOwlbear. That last comment, especially, backs up your handle ^_^
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming is releasing our own campaign world book at the end of 2010 or early 2011. We're planning a 250+ page major production. It's going to incorporate the material we've already published and works we have slated for release this year. This is a HUGE undertaking for the company and honestly, it's a bit of a gamble. But I think the quality of the product will be up to our standards and hopefully that will translate into sales.
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming is releasing our own campaign world book at the end of 2010 or early 2011. We're planning a 250+ page major production. It's going to incorporate the material we've already published and works we have slated for release this year. This is a HUGE undertaking for the company and honestly, it's a bit of a gamble. But I think the quality of the product will be up to our standards and hopefully that will translate into sales.
From my business experience in the PDF market I can tell you (for my point of view) it will kill your company, plain and simple. Why? If you are doing a setting for a RPG you need to have other material to sell with your setting. One-off products do not do well and if they do like your product then how long will it take for you to get another product out?
Do yourself a favor, start off small. I mean REAL small. Doing a 250+ book (with is at least 125,000 words of $1,250 at 1 cent a word plus roughly 40 pages of art equaling $4,000 for a total of $5,250) is silly and more about ego. The average PDF sells only 100 copies, 250 if you are very lucky. Do break even what is your cost per unit? Between $21 to $52.50, not including the 25% - 35% take Paizo or RPGNow take (which increase the per unit cost to $26.35 to $70.86).
And don't be foolish as say you are doing it for fun and it is no big deal if you make your money back. If you feel that way give me the money you would spend on this and I will do it for you (See how silly that sounds?). After doing 500+ product in nearly 10 years of PDF publishing, you might want to rethink this. Just a helpful thought.
Do yourself a favor, start off small. I mean REAL small.
We have, and we are. We've got a few products out already, mostly PDF but three print. They are all selling well enough that we are satisfied we can continue, and continue to expand. As Sean said, the setting most likely won't be out until 2011. We'll have many other products in addition to it. We aren't putting all our eggs in one basket.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
For us, we went small and did POD for our first book. The PDF's are nice because of the costs it takes to print and actually make money on the sales of your printed product. We worked with solid publishers on our campaign setting and ended up wasting about 3 years worth of work on our project trying to get them to get a final product that matched the other books in print. We ended up self-publishing and putting our own product out which it was a full blown campaign setting. Doing this with two people on a part-time basis took us over 3 years to complete. RPG is a very small market in a world full of books. It has to be a labor of love because you will not get rich off of PDF's and we are not expecting to. There is a lot of good advise on this thread and take it because it is a hard thing to do and get an avid following from the community.
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Something to consider about your setting is, do you REALLY want to make money off of it? If the answer is yes, then you have your work cut out for you. There are few publishing companies that make enough money to support them full time.
If you are just wanting to do it for fun, self publish it on the web for free.
I have been working on an adventure for a while (major set back due to new job- been off the boards about 3 months or so until recently) and will self publish it for free on my website when it is ready.
Why am I doing it for free? Because I do not expect it to sell tons of copies. I don't want to invest the capitol to make it a product worthy of print publication (art is expensive). I want the experience. After writing several adventures and maybe some other supplements, I'll see if I am can produce products of any quality worthy of publishing. If so, then I will contact established companies with proposals and go from there.
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Something to consider about your setting is, do you REALLY want to make money off of it? If the answer is yes, then you have your work cut out for you. There are few publishing companies that make enough money to support them full time.
If you are just wanting to do it for fun, self publish it on the web for free.
I have been working on an adventure for a while (major set back due to new job- been off the boards about 3 months or so until recently) and will self publish it for free on my website when it is ready.
Why am I doing it for free? Because I do not expect it to sell tons of copies. I don't want to invest the capitol to make it a product worthy of print publication (art is expensive). I want the experience. After writing several adventures and maybe some other supplements, I'll see if I am can produce products of any quality worthy of publishing. If so, then I will contact established companies with proposals and go from there.
Welcome back, krome!
Re: free. I am considering that option as well.