Alrighty, before we get started, I'd like to go over a small idea.
What are the opinions of this idea?
Allowing the Shape spells to be druid castable at one spell level lower?
This would allow a Druid to access the shape spell one level before his wildshape would grant him access. BUT he'd be limited to the SPELLS duration and not the wildshape duration. On top of that this would allow druids to shift more often.
Beast Shape I = Level 2
Beast Shape II = Level 3
Beast Shape III = Level 4
Beast Shape IV = Level 5Elemental Body I = Level 3
Elemental Body II = Level 4
Elemental Body III = Level 5
Elemental Body IV = Level 6Plant Shape I = Level 4
Plant Shape II = Level 5
Plant Shape III = Level 6
Onto my MAIN idea. I'm fooling with ideas right now for the Pathfinder Druid. I want the Nature Bond Ability to have a Shifter Focus option. In which wildshaping becomes your main offensive. No animal companion, no domain.
Due to the Pathfinder fixes to WildShape. I think this idea works quite well. It's like the PHB2 Idea, but I hope to keep the versatility of WildShape. Instead of ONE base form, at level 1, and then the ability to shift into a bird at lvl 5 or whatever.
So here are my ideas for it, please comment, and give me some help in making a balanced shifter option.
I thought of having the WildShape Progression go with 1 shape a day at EACH level.
Meaning 2/day at level 2, and 3/day at level 3, and so forth until level 12 where it becomes at will.
I also thought of the progression jumping at double the normal rate. Meaning that 2/day at level 1, 4/day at level 3, and so forth.
I thought of the Duration increasing to 2 hours/level, or even 3.
I thought of cutting down the Druid spells to half, or maybe the ranger progression, or eliminating. But that would go against my point, but perhaps that could be a further shifter variant. So I scrapped the idea of screwing with the spells.
I've also got this idea below which I think might be my main right now. Though I'd probably incorporate a change to the duration. I also thought of making the duration limitless, but still only allowing the X/Day. So that you could shift into a Squirrel, and stay in that form for the rest of the day, but if you shift out, you can no longer shift again due to not having the use for that day.
Shifting Bond
Level 1 WildShape 1/Day
Level 2
Level 3 WildShape 2/Day
Level 4
Level 5 WildShape 3/Day
Level 6
Level 7 WildShape 4/Day
Level 8
Level 9 WildShape 5/Day
Level 10
Level 11 WildShape 6/Day
Level 12
Level 13 WildShape 7/Day
Level 14
Level 15 WildShape 8/Day
Level 16
Level 17 WildShape At Will
I dislike the current table that I have.
I think that what is hindering me in this attempt is the fact that I wanted to make a PHB2 shifter option for the PF druid.
However, I'm still not convinced, as from what I've been told
-----Intermission-----
Alright, so I just got back from having a bowel movement. I think that learned something.. Performing Simple or Complicated Mental Tasks/Equations while on the toilet having a bowel movement temporarily increases your intelligence, and wisdom modifiers by +2 for 2d6 rounds. At which point they then drop by -4 for 1d6 rounds. Couldn't locate the soup for 1 round. Was right in front of me >.>
<.< ..... >.>
Anyway..........................................
Here is my current proposal. Rough work of course, I'm gonna need help finishing it.
Nature Bond (Shifter Choice)
Aside from choosing an Animal Companion or a Domain, a Druid may also choose to focus on shifting instead. A druid who selects Shifter as their Nature Bond option is capable of using Wildshape at level 1, and in addition their uses change from x/Per day to (rounds or hours per day). This means that a Shifter Bonded Druid at level 1 may shift into a Wolf for X (ROUNDS OR MINUTES) and then later shift into a bird for X (ROUNDS OR MINUTES) until their total duration for that day has been met.
Page 127 in Races of Eberron has exactly what you are looking for!
Beast Spirit (Su): Shifter druids share a bond with a powerful internal spirit—an intangible manifestation of raw bestial strength and instinct. This spirit grows in power as a shifter druid advances in level, granting increased physical abilities, powerful augmentations to the shifter druid’s summoning, and additional spellcasting power. The beast spirit within a shifter druid is at once a separate entity and an extension of the shifter druid’s own lycanthrope heritage.
This substitution feature replaces the standard druid’s animal companion class feature. If the shifter gains an animal companion from another class (such as ranger), his druid levels don’t stack with levels of that other class to determine the animal companion’s abilities.
THE SHIFTER DRUID’S BEAST SPIRIT
A shifter druid’s beast spirit is not a creature in the traditional sense, but neither is it subject to effects that affect some spirits (it can’t be cast out from the druid as a possessing ghost can, for example). Its presence grants the shifter druid the following abilities.
Class Ability
Level Bonus Special
1st–2nd +0 Alertness, extend shifting, feral empathy
3rd–5th +2 Will of the spirit
6th–8th +2 Transfer spirit
9th–11th +4 Prepare spell (3rd level or lower)
12th–14th +4 Rapid summons
15th–17th +6 Prepare spell (6th level or lower)
18th–20th +6 Manifested spirit
Class Level: The character’s druid level.
Ability Bonus: The druid gains a bonus to his Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution score, choosing which ability score is affected at the time he prepares spells each day. He can change the affected ability score at any point in the day, but doing so requires a full minute of concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. If this concentration disrupted in any way, the bonus is lost until the druid successfully attempts the process again.
Alertness (Su): A shifter druid’s spirit beast grants him Alertness as a bonus feat.
Extend Shifting (Su): Born of wild instinct and natural power, a shifter druid’s spirit beast strengthens the druid’s racial shifting ability, adding 2 rounds to its duration.
Feral Empathy (Su): Filled with the raw power of his beast spirit, a shifter druid bonds with wild animals instinctively, gaining a +4 bonus on wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks (see page 35 of the Player’s Handbook for a full description of the druid’s wild empathy ability).
Will of the Spirit (Su): A shifter druid’s beast spirit helps him maintain control of his mind. Starting at 3rd level, if he fails his normal saving throw against an enchantment spell or effect, the shifter druid can attempt an additional save 1 round later at the same DC.
Transfer Spirit (Su): Starting at 6th level, a shifter druid can temporarily transfer his beast spirit to any animal within 30 feet that he has summoned with a summon nature’s ally spell. Transfer spirit is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. While the spirit is transferred, all benefits it normally grants the druid are temporarily suppressed. In exchange, the summoned creature gains a bonus to its Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution score (whichever of the druid’s abilities was enhanced at the time of transfer) equal to
twice the bonus gained by the druid. This ability also enables the druid to communicate with the summoned animal as if they shared a common language. A shifter druid cannot recall his beast spirit until the summoned creature dies, is dismissed, or the summoning spell ends. Once transferred, the animal can move more than 30 feet away from the druid without losing the beast spirit benefits.
Prepare Spell (Su): The presence of his beast spirit allows a shifter druid to prepare one extra druid spell of 3rd level or lower to be cast on himself ( which must have a range of touch or personal). The spell is prepared normally and treated as if cast by the druid for all purposes (caster level, save DC, and so forth), but is cast by the beast spirit with a moment’s thought on the part of the shifter druid (a swift action). A beast spirit cannot cast this spell while it is transferred to another creature. The druid cannot lose a spell prepared in this manner in order to use his spontaneous casting ability. Starting at 15th level, the druid can prepare and cast a spell of up to 6th level using this ability.
Rapid Summons (Su): The presence of his beast spirit enhances the druid’s connection to the otherworldly animals and natural creatures that he can summon using the summon nature’s ally spell. From 12th level on, as long as the beast spirit is present within the druid, he casts any summon nature’s ally spell as a standard action instead of
a full-round action.
Manifested Spirit (Su): With his lycanthrope heritage strengthened by the presence of the beast spirit, a shifter druid manifests more powerful abilities when he shifts. At 18th level, the shifter druid gains Extra Shifter Trait as a bonus feat. If he already has the Extra Shifter Trait feat, he gains its benefit a second time and can choose a third shifter trait (an exception to the normal rule that you cannot gain the benefit of this feat twice).
There are other goodies on the same page for replacing resist nature's lure and wildshape.
That's not what I want. In fact, I don't think that's any where near what I want.
I don't even consider that similar to what I just posted not too long ago.
Edit
Yeah, that's definitely no where near what I was thinking of, and although it's a neat idea for THAT kind of variant. It doesn't apply to my option.
Theirs is about a Druid that has a beast spirit which allows it to enhance physical ability scores on itself or animals.
Not to mention gives it an extra round or three for staying shifted or what not. Not to mention that's racial specific it appears for the Shifter race.
I am not using or referring to the Shifter race at all period flat out.
I'm talking about the ability to shift which would refer to one as a "Shifter" which has NOTHING to do with a race.
Regardless that shifters are the offspring of Therianthropes (Not just lycanthropes)
It's a variant on the base druid for the shifter, which I thought was perhaps the main thrust of what you were looking for. Another option replace wildshape with enhanced shifting abilities. I know it wasn't exactly what you detailed, but it felt close enough to show that others were thinking along the same lines.
As an aside, there are some spells in RoE that also enhance shifting ability you might be interested in.
It's a variant on the base druid for the shifter, which I thought was perhaps the main thrust of what you were looking for. Another option replace wildshape with enhanced shifting abilities. I know it wasn't exactly what you detailed, but it felt close enough to show that others were thinking along the same lines.
As an aside, there are some spells in RoE that also enhance shifting ability you might be interested in.
You'd have to elaborate as to what the enhanced shifting abilities would be. Which is, what I thought at least... EXACTLY what I was doing.
Aside from that, I do not like Eberron, and have no materials for it.
Nor do I believe that others were thinking along the same lines with that example. I believe that's a completely different concept.
Enhanced Shifting replaced Wildshape:
Wild Shifting (Ex): A shifter druid learns to exercise extraordinary control over his own form, and beginning at 5th level, he can use his racial shifting ability one additional time per day. As well, he can use his Wisdom modifier (instead of his Constitution modifier) to determine the duration of his shifting.
A shifter druid who selects this substitution level also gains additional benefits at later levels. Beginning at 8th level, any natural weapons gained from shifting deal damage as if the druid were one size category larger than he is. At 15th level and higher, they deal damage as if he were two size categories larger (see Table 5–1, page 296 of the Monster Manual).
This substitution feature replaces the standard druid’s wild shape ability, and at each level that a shifter druid would normally gain an additional daily use of wild shape, he instead gains one additional daily use of his shifting ability. The druid gains no abilities in place of wild shape (Tiny) or wild shape (plant), but gains the ability to wild shape into an elemental as normal from 16th level on (including additional uses at 18th and 20th level, and Huge size at 20th level).
Races of Eberron has a lot of details on the Eberron races - Changelings, Kalashtar, Shifters and Warforged. It's very little about the Eberron setting itself.
-Face Palms- That's an option for the Shifter --> RACE
My example shall be using a HALF-ELF Druid with the Nature Bond option (Shifter)
Just wanted to make that clear, as I don't think you understood.
Aside from that, perhaps if I looked at the Shifters Racial Abilities it could help me. Though, I would much rather get an opinion on my current idea for this Option for the Nature Bond class ability.
Nature Bond Option
Aside from choosing an Animal Companion or a Domain, a Druid may also choose to focus on shifting instead. A druid who selects Shifter as their Nature Bond option is capable of using Wildshape at level 1, and in addition their uses change from x/Per day to (rounds or hours per day). This means that a Shifter Bonded Druid at level 1 may shift into a Wolf for X (ROUNDS OR MINUTES) and then later shift into a bird for X (ROUNDS OR MINUTES) until their total duration for that day has been met.
This would mean a Shifter Druid would gain At will transformation at lvl 17 rather than 20.
They would also be able to use their shifting when needed and more often. As in spreading it across multiple encounters, instead of only using 1 Once for the day for a single hour at a single time period.
I.E. Old Rules = 1 Hour at level 1, straight out. (Yes, I know you get it at lvl 4)
My Rules = 15 Minutes here, 10 minutes there, 5 minutes here, 25 minutes here, and another 5 minutes Here. = 1 Hour for the day.
However, in my head I'm thinking perhaps that could be game breaking.
I.E. A level 12 Druid could shapeshift for a total of 12 Hours a Day, and be able to spread those out all over the place. He could therefore shapeshift into any animal he wanted period that he can access due to his level (Normal Wildshape Progression for Access to forms) up to a total of 12 hours a day.
<Facepalm>
OK ... just ignore me ... I'll just curl up and die with embarrassment now ...
No need to do that, I was harsh, and I apologize. I do greatly appreciate that you put time and effort into things, and you probably did help me a bit unknowingly to both myself and yourself.
Not to mention you educated me to some things that I had not been aware of and I do like knowledge.
Anyway, I value your opinion regardless and would appreciate it still.
Once again, I do apologize for being so harsh.
Aside from that I feel like I am perhaps partially failing to grasp the ideals/belief which you hold.
-Apologizes, stands you up, gives you water, and sits with ya.- Sorry, didn't mean to be an ass. I just am sometimes. ><
No need to apologise - I looked at this thread right after looking at some Eberron race threads, so shifters were on my mind, and I should have read more carefully.
Taking a fresh look, it looks like what you are proposing is almost more a new class with a shape-changing ability as it's primary power rather than a variant druid. If I was doing that I would make wildshape as one of several options for shape-changing, and limit spell ability much more.
I wouldn't necessarily limit spell ability.
The way I see it, the PHB2 Shifter Druid balanced the Druid.
Then Pathfinder went and balanced the druid
So by taking a form of it without breaking it.. I'm balancing him even more without losing spells cast.
THE PHB 2 Shifter lost the animal companion
Gained a single shifting form.
At will and such.
I'm putting a limit on it, allowing earlier access, but keeping the forms and shapes as is, but they are still more balanced than what The shapeshifter had them as and such
I don't know I'll figure it out when I get more opinions, and I'll definitely keep yours in mind. Thank you.
Once I can get my Mundane Enhancements finished I'll be good.
So far they are GREAT for low magic campaigns, but I'm trying to get them to be good with High-mid magics.
So all around.
It's the armors right now that I think might have a problem.
There are a lot of options for armour ... you could add a 'shape changing' property to armour for a +1 or +2 equivalent, for example.
Huh, oh, no that's magical.
My Masterwork system is purely non magical.
It's Mundane Masterwork Enhancements.
The concern now is that the armor options may not be balanced or worth while.
Aside from that, I think the weapons are good, and the tools as well.
Though feedback is always welcome.
It's on this board, should be close to the top 10 topics. As I said, been getting lots of GOOD feeback for the system to be used in lowmagic. For mid-high not many opinions aside from magic probably being the way to go. But that's understandable, as it's not meant to replace magic, but simply provide more flavor and depth to Masterwork Items.
So that acquiring such an item is like "Holy s#*#, I have the legendary forged blade of "insert" Now I can enchant it >.>!
Type thingy, I dunno. They are not ment to be commonplace items, but n a low magic they would be. Or perhaps it's the other way around, not sure. lol.
Okay, so.. Uhm .. I'm thinking this then.
Nature Bond (Ex): At 1st level, a druid forms a bond with nature. This bond can take one of three forms. The first is a close tie to the natural world, granting the druid one of the following cleric domains: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water, or Weather. When determining the powers and bonus spells granted by this domain, the druid's effective cleric level is equal to her druid level. A druid that selects this option also receives additional domain spell slots, just like a cleric. She must prepare the spell from her domain in this slot and this spell cannot be used to cast a spell spontaneously.
The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A druid may begin play with any of the animals listed in Animal Choices. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures.
Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion's Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. Most animal companions increase in size when their druid reaches 4th or 7th level, depending on the companion. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
The third option is to form a bond with nature in its most primal aspects. By doing so the druid gains the ability to more efficiently and effectively use their wildshape ability. This results in a few critical changes. The first being that the Druid may use Wildshape at level 1, the second being that they instead of daily uses they may use wildshape up to a total of 300 rounds a day. The druid's rounds per day increase by another 300 rounds at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15. At level 17 the druid may use wildshape at will without limit. Nothing else is changed with the wildshape ability; meaning that a druid may still only use Beast Shape II, or Elemental Body I at level 6, and so on.
My concerns, is this balanced, is it too weak, too powerful, what should be changed to fix it?
At current that means the druid can basically use their wildshape for up to a total of 30 minutes at level 1, up to 1 hour at level 3, 1 hour and 30 minutes at lvl 5, and so on.
I would call it thirty minutes (three hundred rounds) rather than just three hundred rounds.
Is it balanced? Well Wildshape got heavily nerfed as it was, but it is still a potent power. You are still limited by being familiar with the type of animal, so the real issue is: are you familiar with the animal?
I would like to suggest a broader, but perhaps welcome change to the wildshape ability that will limit it, perhaps sufficiently:
Druids are sufficiently familiar with one type of animal to wildshape into that animal form for every skill-rank they have in Knowledge (nature). They cannot be familiar with any kind of animal not native to the climate and tarrain they have visited, but visiting such terrain allows them to adapt to a form of animal they are familiar with and that is native to the terrain via their link to the land itself.
An animal type may include several sub-categories - being familiar with wolves allows familiarity with dogs and dire wolves; being familiar with bears means fam,iliarity with brown bears, black bears, panda bears, dire bears and polar bears; being familiar with birds of prey means familiarity with falcons, eagles, hawks, owls, ospreys etc.
This makes wildrshape almost as unrestricted for the 4th level druid, but for the first level druid he has to pick one animal type and hence one shape-shifting role. This hopefully will stop it being unbalanced at low level.
I think that's already a generally assumed game/house rule.
That's not really a game mechanic thing, more so a realism DM call. And if the DM fumbles that one, then yeah.
I'm not going to include anything like that into the rules as it's just pointless clutter. As although it should be obvious, and although it may not be. I'm not going to include something that I'm positive every good DM uses already anyway.
It's just a lot of text walls to me that are unimportant.
I was thinking of changing the 300 rounds in the description to 30 minutes, though I wanted to put down rounds so that everyone knows exactly how long it's gonna be usable.
Honestly, my main concern is not granting them wildshape at level 1, but allowing them the versatility of it. So I'm not sure if 300 rounds is too much.
I'm not sure if this option is a huge nerf, if it's a power booster, or if it's a neutral in which case. Would probably be best.
Well, I've been going over it, and after getting a secondary opinion.
I do see the point a little bit more as to "form" abuse.
Therefore, I'll be coming up with a mechanic that further represents the forms that a druid can take.
What I'm thinking would solve the problem is the following. This rule goes for normal wildshaping as well.
In order to take upon any shape that is not the druid's own. They must be almost intimately familiar with the creatures shape, habits, and abilities. This requires that the druid knows of the creatures existence, and has studied the creature enough to know how to take upon their shape and abilities. This is represented by making a Knowledge Nature check DC 10 plus the creature's HD.
I like the sound of this (the Druid-bear was my favourite Diablo II class). I think you may have the duration set as too short though.
The normal wildshape allows the druid 1 hour per druid level.
However, this is continuous use, And limited times per day.
So wild shape for 4 Hours, once per day. Then 6 hours, twice per day
And so forth.
If you use your wildshape, that 6 hours is suddenly gone.
An example would be a druid wildshaping for a combat or two, and then halting. Leaving them with no more uses per day.
-------------------------------------
This however, would be remedied by the druid who would be able to use the ability whenever they want, with no limit per day.
I do agree with you perhaps that it MAY be too low, but at the same time, I didn't want to make this ability too powerful. I'll try and gather some more opinions.
I like the sound of this (the Druid-bear was my favourite Diablo II class). I think you may have the duration set as too short though.
In an interesting note, Sean K. came up with a system for creating a wildshaping Lycanthropic Druid.
I suppose the system could also be adapted for a werebear.
Thus = Werebear focused wildshaper >.>
Well, how about 1 hour per day in 1-minute blocks? It discourages 1 or 2 round shifts and still allows lots of lots of shifts when necessary. This would then increase at every odd level as before. It's also less to count (60, rather than 300) and encourages the shifter to actually spend some time in animal form each day.
Current system is 1 hour a level, and I'm working on something different as well to possibly replace my system.
Looking it up, it's one hour per level per usage of the power. So at 6th level a druid can normally wild-shape twice for six hours each time.
Can I suggest making it half an hour per druid level per usage, but give them twice as many usages? ie, 1/day at levels 1-3, 2/day at 4th level, 4/day at 6th level (maybe increment at 3/day at 5th level) and so on and so forth.
This gives you greater versatility while not exceeding the total time available, and not giving less either.
Reading your suggestion, I disliked it almost immediately.
After
Running the math on level 8 druids for both options.
I liked it more.
Let me think, and get some opinions and things on another option.
Then I'll inform.
Hmm..
Thank you VERY much for that idea, it's a VERY good one.
Chances are it will be implemented.
You're welcome - it was really just an off-the-cuff idea, it may need fine-tuning to make it work well.
I'm all for encouraging the druid to spend as much time in animal form as possible, but "only" six times per day doesn't sound very versatile. It might be perfect in play, but I don't know.
I'm all for encouraging the druid to spend as much time in animal form as possible, but "only" six times per day doesn't sound very versatile. It might be perfect in play, but I don't know.
Well, if you compare with the double system.
The druid could shift at level 1, then compared to lvl 8
Take druid without shifter, and with
The with could shift twice as many times as the non
Albeit for only 30 mins per level, but it would be significantly more versatile.
However, I am working on finding ways to improve, boost, nerf, or balanced. Am getting or trying to get opinions from people who know alot about Druids. Just give me some time, or do some work yourselves for it.
Eventually, we'll have a good third option druid mechanic. At least, that's my hope.
The thing is, in the 'four encounters per day' the druid above 6th level can change form at least once per encounter to a form that is appropriate to that encounter. The total time he can spend shifted per day is the same as any other druid (12 hours at 6th level) so if he wants to wildshape for travel he still can.
I would say that the Druid-Shifter can change into one specific animal as per Beast Shape I at 1st-level for up to 30 minutes once per day. At 2nd-level, they could then shift in multiple creatures as per Beast Shape I for up to 30 minutes per level 2/day . At 4th-level and upwards, they would then follow the normal wild shape, except that they could change twice as often for half as long each time (as suggested above). At 10th-level, they could also assume magical beast forms, as per Beast Shape V, and at 16th-level, they could change at will.
As their 20th-level capstone ability, I'd give them Shapechange 1/day for five hours (15 mins per level, rather than 10) and allow them to change back to their normal form during the spell's duration, without cancelling the spell.
I'm not entirely sure about that, but at the same time I sort of like your idea.
At current I'm going to be attempting to talk to someone whom I see as a sort of Druid expert.
If I can get some opinions from him it will definitely help me make a decision.
Just for the hell of it, and to share what I'm thinking.
Here is what I'm thinking. lol.
Fine, I'll share.
Anyway.
I was curious, it looks to me like the PHB II Shifter Druid variant is now O.P. for the Pathfinder Druid.
Am I correct?
Is there a way to possible make a shifter variant that would be both balanced and useful.
I have an idea or two in mind.
That are inspired by the Shifter Variant from PHB II.
Aside from that, I have another shifter option that I've been working on, but I really do dislike it.
The shifter option I have in mind now is that the druid uses nature bond (shifter) as his choice, and he gets wildshape at level 1, but instead of daily uses, they can use the ability 1 hour per level, per day, in total.
Meaning I could shift for 10 minutes, deshift, and still have 50 minutes left for that day. At level 1.
This would grant early access to Beast Shape I, but all other forms and shapes would only be accessible at the level they are normally gained.
Aside from that, At will unlimited transformation would be granted at lvl 15.
Aside from that, to further houserule the Druid so that it wouldn't be abusive. A druid is already stated that it must be familiar with a creature, I'd represent this by a knowledge nature check DC10 plus the creatures CR.
That is the option that I dislike at current, but came up with none the less. I've been told it seems balanced, but I haven't had many opinons.
My shifter PHB II inspired ideas are as follows
Quote:
Wildshape At Will, 1st Level.
Possibly Limited Amount of Forms.
Can Shift From Form to Form.Possibility of additional bonuses to stats for varying forms. (Unlikely/unsure)
Possibility of Magical Enhanced Attacks for DR bypassing purposes (Unsure/unlikely)
Possible Move or Swift Action to Shift (Unlikely)
Woops, I so thought this was your Druid thread. My bad, sorry.
Anyway, just got a new suggestion from a very awesome person.
Nature Bond (Shifter) Option.
Half an hour each Druid level duration.
Levels one to three = 1 Uses per day
Level 4 = 2 Uses per day
Level 6 = 4 Uses Per Day
Level 8 = 6 Uses Per DayInfinite Uses at???
Just gotta wait for you to tell me if such an option would need to be buffed in certain areas or things to make it balanced and a viable option that people would actually want to pick it.
So I suppose I've gotta wait for you to inform me of your opinions on all the options, and the concept in general I suppose.
Well, I noticed that someone took the Druid, and modified him by giving him the EXACT PHB II template, and then adding a rage ability.
It looks good, honestly, but I'm going to finish up mine, and I thank everyone for all their help.
I got the opinion that I wanted finally, and it seemed to say that the PHB II was good, but if it was brought back, it would need to be buffed.
Which surprised me, as I thought it would be O.P.
So, I'm going to be taking ideas that people have posted, and mesh them all together, and I'll hopefully then have an end product, which is more interesting and desirable hopefully than that other druid I found.
Anyway, I'll get back to you guys soon.
I'll look forward to it :)
REMEMBER, THIS REPLACES THE NATURE BOND ABILITY.
Okay, I've gone whacky, and decided to possibly take a more simplified, and more powerful approach.
Unlimited Wildshape at 1st level.
One animal form until 4th level.
Wildshape acts exactly like beast shape = Can take on Magical Beast Forms.Natural Magical Enhancement Bonus equal to 1/4 Druid level
+1 = 4
+2 = 8
+3 = 12
+4 = 16
+6 = 20
As well, in order to be able to assume the form of an animal, you must spend 24 hours of research studying the animal, either through studying the animal yourself (watching it, what not) or reading extensively knowledgeable manuals. (Beastiary or something)
The DC for which is DC 10 Plus the CR of the creature.
Also, if this simplified change is not powerful enough, or too powerful. Things can be done such as perhaps limiting the number of spells, and giving buffs.
My idea is perhaps, buffs to your forms, +2 or doubling benefits and penalties.
Maybe a limit on the number of forms one can memorize equal to half ones druid level plus intelligence modifier or something.
Aside from that, I'm working on removing the woodland stride, and trackless step abilities, and replacing them with an form of favored terrain which includes those abilities.
This means that a Druid will get ONE terrain. This will be a straight out benefit to ALL druids. I don't think it would imbalance them too much, but I believe that it's a fluff like compatible skill. If this is an imbalanced. I will attempt to balance it.
Perhaps the change if it is too powerful, could be limited to the shifter druid. In which case he could perhaps only take on forms of creatures that dwelled within the environment he chooses. Keep in mind, he only gets ONE environment.
So I'm definitely thinking of limited animal forms to help balance this as I think it would be needed. Half character level plus Int seems good to me.
Having odd enhancement bonuses strikes me as wrong, so I would suggest +2/+4/+6 at 6th/12th/18th instead. Getting Beast Shape I - IV at the normal (or projected) levels except 1st would be sensible.
What odd enhancement bonuses?
I don't understand how they are odd.
Perhaps I should phrase it another way.
They are magical enhancement bonuses, which count as magical weapons for purposes of damage reduction.
Therefore natural attacks become a +5 magic weapon at lvl 20.
I suppose this can be made useless by the fact that they can become magical beasts.
But aside from that.
I do agree I guess with your suggestion for the beastshapes.
Meaning they do not gain access to beast shape(wild shape) until 4th level.
Still don't get ya with the enhancements... +6 to hit and damage.. >.> Then again, I dunno, guess can work. If you push it, I suppose I might make the change.
I SEE what ya mean, I made a mistake and put a 6 where there should have been a 5, which threw you off. My bad.
I'm fine with them getting one BS I change at 1st-level and then any BS I change at 4th, but the other BS should be limited, like with plants etc.
I thought you were talking about stat boosts, hence the 2/4/6 split. Weapon enhancements make much more sense :)
I like your idea.
Here is my current working on the option, I'll update it shortly for your idea.
I'm thinking double rounds like we had before for them?
or perhaps it should advance like a normal wildshape druid?
Nature Bond (Shifter Option)
- Starting at level 1 you may take the form of an animal who's CR is equal or less than your character level.- Natural Magical Enhancement Bonus equal to 1/4 Druid level, this makes your natural attacks count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
+1 = at 4th level, +2 = at 8th level, +3 = at 12th level, +4 = at 16th level, +5 = at 20th level.- Gains unlimited use of Wildshape at 4th level.
- Wild shape acts exactly as Beast Shape, meaning that you can take the form of magical beasts if Beast Shape would allow.
- In order to be able to assume the form of a creature, you must have studied the creature for a total of 24 hours by making the appropriate Knowledge Check DC 10 + plus the creature's CR.
If you fail to gain enough knowledge to be able to assume the form of a creature you may not attempt to study a creature for 24 hours.
- You may only have a total number of creatures studied equal to that of half your Druid level rounded down plus your intelligence modifier.
Well, I wouldn't allow their claws to violate all DR, just because. Still give them the weapon enhancement at 1/4-level as before, but allow their claws to strike as magical at 4th, as one metal (cold iron or silver) at 8th, as their own alignment type at 12th (when their claws would be +3) and adamantine at 16th. For their shifter capstone ability at 20th, I would suggest maybe +4 Str/Dex/Con when shifted.
Go with half duration twice as often. I think that's more than enough by the time you reach 6th or 7th.
Uhm.. Okay, well wait. I just wanna confirm if I'm misinterpreting stuff here. About magical DR.
Anyway, about magical enhancements. What I mean is that the the weapons would function basically as a +5 magic weapon at 20th level.
Therefore anything that would require a magic item to hit, like incorporeal or whatever. Would be hit or have a chance to be hit by their natural attacks.
Then again.. Does magic bypass automatically all kinds of damage reduction?? If so, I was not aware, and then we'll probably go with your idea.
I'll go try and research it right now.
Aside from that, I sort of do like your idea, I just don't wanna imbal anything.
I do really like the half progression, but here are the options anyway.
Half an hour each Druid level duration.
Level 6 = 4 Uses Per Day
Level 8 = 6 Uses Per Day
Level 10 = 8 Uses Per Day
Level 12 = 10 Uses Per Day
Level 14 = 12 Uses Per Day
Level 16 = 14 Uses Per Day
Level 18 = 16 Uses Per Day
Level 20 = Unlimited
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Normal Wildshape Duration and Progression.
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Rounds per day instead???
I dunno, this is the only thing that I can come up with for now with my research, I'll try and do further research.
"Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
Further research reveals this.
At my recollection it appears to be similar to that of what you suggested.
I'll compare and then brood over it.
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
Soooo---
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Nature Bond (Shifter Option)
- Starting at level 1 you may take the form of an animal who's CR is equal or less than your character level.
- Natural Magical Enhancement Bonus equal to 1/4 Druid level, this makes your natural attacks count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
+1 = at 4th level, +2 = at 8th level, +3 = at 12th level, +4 = at 16th level, +5 = at 20th level.
- Gains unlimited use of Beast Shape I at 4th level.
-Instead of normal uses per day at level 6 and up, you get double the uses per day, with half the duration.
Half an hour each Druid level duration.
Level 6 = 4 Uses Per Day
Level 8 = 6 Uses Per Day
Level 10 = 8 Uses Per Day
Level 12 = 10 Uses Per Day
Level 14 = 12 Uses Per Day
Level 16 = 14 Uses Per Day
Level 18 = 16 Uses Per Day
Level 20 = Unlimited
- Wild shape acts exactly as Beast Shape, meaning that you can take the form of magical beasts if Beast Shape would allow.
- In order to be able to assume the form of a creature, you must have studied the creature for a total of 24 hours by making the appropriate Knowledge Check DC 10 + plus the creature's CR.
If you fail to gain enough knowledge to be able to assume the form of a creature you may not attempt to study a creature for 24 hours.
- You may only have a total number of creatures studied equal to that of half your Druid level rounded down plus your intelligence modifier.
At 20th-level, I would also allow them to change as a move action. I think their capstone needs more uumph.
A friend of mine expressed concern for the O.P. ness of this option.
I wasn't really seeing his point, I'll give the basic rundown on the conversation.
He was saying that being able to use beast shape 1 unlimited was o.p.
I used the stats and in my opinion it just doesn't seem like it really, unless you're going to find a full blown medium creature with all the abilities listed.
+2 Str, +2 (NEW) Base Natural AC.
then vision modes, possible scent, and move speeds.
That's all ya get, I think it's a decent trade off from the animal companion or domain.
Aside from that.
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As for the umph, I think that I agree with you.
What about adding these possible options to the option. (Need your opinion for these as I'm not good balance)
Swift change at 20th level
Move action change near mid, 12th level??
Possible ability to gain the abilities of a creature = Turn into Wolf, have the wolves trip ability.
Okay, have been talked with.
Am probably going to alter the granted ability to take on magical forms to one of the following levels 10-12.
In addition, will probably also allow, (as from what I can see, you can't use higher levels of beastshape to take on medium animal size.)
So if that assumption is correct. I'll probably add something that allows your lower levels to be more useful
I.E. medium at some time, would grant the use of additional abilities like trip and grab, or such.
Aside from that, still thinking about the move option.
That sounds good. They should definitely be more versatile, especially when specialising in their class's signature power.
>.> Arakhor. You're awesome, ya know that. lol
Alrighty, here are my current designs.
Removing the ability to turn into a magical beast.
Adding in at 10-12th level that wildshaping becomes a move equivalent action.
At level 20 it becomes a swift action.
Also, still thinking about giving the first level wildshape an upgrade.
Does this sound like a good plan???
Does it sound balanced for what you're getting/trading off?
Final Rough Draft??
Here we go, revised and new. Lets test it out as in, how does it look to everyone.
Balance, Utility, and awesome wise, and all that jazz.
This is the option, and how it would work. Thus far, a finalized rough draft. Anything bolded is what I added, aside from the title itself.
The actual mechanics of the option are in the second quote.
Nature Bond (Ex): At 1st level, a druid forms a bond with nature. This bond can take one of three forms. The first is a close tie to the natural world, granting the druid one of the following cleric domains: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water, or Weather. When determining the powers and bonus spells granted by this domain, the druid's effective cleric level is equal to her druid level. A druid that selects this option also receives additional domain spell slots, just like a cleric. She must prepare the spell from her domain in this slot and this spell cannot be used to cast a spell spontaneously.
The third option is to form a bond with nature, and its most animalistic aspects. By doing so the druid gains the ability to more efficiently and effectively use their wildshape ability. This results in a few critical changes.
Nature Bond (Shifter Option)
Training Shape
Starting at level 1 you may study and take the form of a single animal who's CR is equal or less than your character level. The duration of this form is at will, and when taking this form you get bonuses depending upon the taken forms size.Small Creature: +1 Dex bonus, and a +1 Natural Armor Bonus.
Medium Creature: +1 Str, and a +1 Natural Armor Bonus.
Nature's Magic
Natural Magical Enhancement Bonus equal to 1/4 Druid level, this makes your natural attacks count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
+1 = at 4th level, +2 = at 8th level, +3 = at 12th level, +4 = at 16th level, +5 = at 20th level.Student of Minor Forms
At level 4 you may use Wild Shape (Beast Shape I) unlimited.Enhanced Wildshape
Instead of normal uses per day at level 6 and up you get double the uses per day, with half the duration of a normal Druid. This allows you to use your Wildshape ability more often, and with strategic dominance.Half an hour each Druid level duration.
Level 6 = 4 Uses Per Day
Level 8 = 6 Uses Per Day
Level 10 = 8 Uses Per Day
Level 12 = 10 Uses Per Day
Level 14 = 12 Uses Per Day
Level 16 = 14 Uses Per Day
Level 18 = 16 Uses Per Day
Level 20 = UnlimitedLord of Minor Forms
At 7th level your WildShape (Beast Shape I) allows you to gain the following traits if the animal form taken has them; Grab, Pounce, and Trip.At 9th level your WildShape (Beast Shape 1) allows you to gain the following traits if the animal form taken has them; Ferocity.
Quickened Shape
At level 11 using WildShape becomes a move equivalent action instead of a standard action.At level 20 using Wild Shape becomes a swift action instead of a move action.
Becoming Familiar with a Form
In order to be able to assume the form of a creature, you must have studied the creature for a total of 24 hours by making the appropriate Knowledge Check DC 10 + plus the creature's CR.If you fail to gain enough knowledge to be able to assume the form of a creature you may not attempt to study a creature for 24 hours.
You may only have a total number of creatures studied equal to that of half your Druid level rounded down plus your intelligence modifier.
Thinking of reverting back to rounds.
Level 6 = 300 Rounds Per Day
Level 8 = 600 Rounds Per Day
Level 10 = 900 Rounds Per Day
Level 12 = 1200 Rounds Per Day
Level 14 = 1500 Rounds Per Day
Level 16 = 1800 Rounds Per Day
Level 18 = 2100 Rounds Per Day
Level 20 = Unlimited
Well then, I think this would be better however, the amount of rounds seems extensive (if that's the proper word).
Perhaps lowering it, lol.
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Okay, after thinking about it, a round system is probably best.
And going for the assumption that a easy battle is 1-5 rounds, and a decent is 5-10.
The standard for abilities such as bardic performance and rage are 4+Mod, with 2 additional per level.
I could go that route, or a modified version (meaning, 5+5? or something.
Okay, I went with the 4 + Wis Mod, +2 at each additional level rounds, and this is the replacement I came up with.
Tactical Wildshape
Instead of uses per day your wildshape ability functions off of rounds per day. This means that at sixth level you may use wildshape for a number of rounds per day equal to 14 + Wis Modifier. At each additional level your total rounds per day increases by 2. This does not allow you to use a level of Wildshape earlier than you would be normally granted. Thus Wildshape (Beast Shape II) can be used at level 6, and Wildshape (Beast Shape III) can be used at level 8, and so on and so forth.