RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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So my group has now played about 10 sessions of 4e and while we agree it's okay, we also agree that it feels... unfinished. Like it's just lacking something to be great.
So in this spirit, I'd like to know what house rules people have implemented and why. I'm going to try and cobble together a 4.1 system for our group, in an effort to salvage the money we've already put into the game and your submissions might be a huge help.
Thanks in advance for your help!
James
So my group has now played about 10 sessions of 4e and while we agree it's okay, we also agree that it feels... unfinished. Like it's just lacking something to be great.
So in this spirit, I'd like to know what house rules people have implemented and why. I'm going to try and cobble together a 4.1 system for our group, in an effort to salvage the money we've already put into the game and your submissions might be a huge help.
Thanks in advance for your help!
James
This may or may not help, but we only have a couple of house rules.
One is set a time limit of how long a person has before they have to act before they lose their term. Makes the slack A's in my group actually pay attention and drastically speeds up combat.
Second is cut the hps of the monsters and up their damage to speed up combat.
Third is not so much a house rule as a way the DMs set up their encounters, they do some combats that allow for different classes to shine. So one person in the group doesnt appear to be doing everything. An example of this would be a area with lots of traps/pits and having a person in the group who can push people around. Another would be a combat with alot of minions so the Wizard feels like they are blowing stuff up.
4E is an excellent summer blockbuster simulator so make sure that at least some of the combats involve having the PCs engaged in activities that involve them moving around and trying to accomplish things during combat. A chase across rooftops where they are trying to catch some one while others are trying to catch them is the sort of scene your aiming for and its one which the system is ideal at playing out (no trump card powers and the skill system works well in such circumstances). The nature of the encounter is going to reduce grind as well as it takes the focus off the straight forward kill or be killed monster fight. If your in a 3.5 mindset you make your players happy by letting them show off the awesome move that they have spent 6 levels working toward. 4E players don't do that - instead they are all, in some sense, spell casters with many different moves. They are 'coolest' when they are choosing between their diverse sets of combat moves and complex climatic fights involving lots of mobility and divergent goals or threats are going to allow the players to show off their unique talents.
The skill system is excellent for dealing with information gathering scenarios. Your almost always in a situation where one player is the diplomacy master, another is great at streetwise, a third does intimidate etc. Hence in the third installment of the Scales of War Scenario we needed back track a weapon smuggling operation back to its source and this proved a lot of fun. Not only is there good role playing elements here but different characters are good at different parts of this kind of a scenario so many players get to add different pieces to the puzzle. Any player that adds a piece feels like s/he contributed and that is fun. Don't shy away from information gathering type scenarios - get them to actually track the cult down to their lair through a series of scenes. Make sure that the scenes vary enough that different skills are good in different scenes and all your players will get to participate. This will go a long way to making the combats seem meaningful as well since they will derive from the plot.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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4E is an excellent summer blockbuster simulator so make sure that at least some of the combats involve having the PCs engaged in activities that involve them moving around and trying to accomplish things during combat. A chase across rooftops where they are trying to catch some one while others are trying to catch them is the sort of scene your aiming for and its one which the system is ideal at playing out (no trump card powers and the skill system works well in such circumstances). The nature of the encounter is going to reduce grind as well as it takes the focus off the straight forward kill or be killed monster fight. If your in a 3.5 mindset you make your players happy by letting them show off the awesome move that they have spent 6 levels working toward. 4E players don't do that - instead they are all, in some sense, spell casters with many different moves. They are 'coolest' when they are choosing between their diverse sets of combat moves and complex climatic fights involving lots of mobility and divergent goals or threats are going to allow the players to show off their unique talents.
The skill system is excellent for dealing with information gathering scenarios. Your almost always in a situation where one player is the diplomacy master, another is great at streetwise, a third does intimidate etc. Hence in the third installment of the Scales of War Scenario we needed back track a weapon smuggling operation back to its source and this proved a lot of fun. Not only is there good role playing elements here but different characters are good at different parts of this kind of a scenario so many players get to add different pieces to the puzzle. Any player that adds a piece feels like s/he contributed and that is fun. Don't shy away from information gathering type scenarios - get them to actually track the cult down to their lair through a series of scenes. Make sure that the scenes vary enough that different skills are good in different scenes and all your players will get to participate....
Thanks for the excellent primer for how to play the game we've spent 10 sessions playing. Honestly, I know all this and we've used dynamic enemies, dynamic settings, dynamic everything. It still feels slightly off. The previous poster was extremely useful with his bit about cutting HP: that's the sort of idea I'm looking for, not a how to guide for the game.
Thanks for the excellent primer for how to play the game we've spent 10 sessions playing. Honestly, I know all this and we've used dynamic enemies, dynamic settings, dynamic everything. It still feels slightly off. The previous poster was extremely useful with his bit about cutting HP: that's the sort of idea I'm looking for, not a how to guide for the game.
Slightly off is kind of an opaque concept. I thought that these might, in part, address your issues (and if I'm wrong, well no big loss). Beyond that I actually think its possible to deconstruct what makes a 3.5 fight excellent and do the same with a 4E fight and find that they don't completely overlap and this goes beyond just having 'dynamic everything' - there is a differences between how the two systems generate tension and excitement at the table. Since you indicate that your hitting Grind I felt the primer might be worth considering.
This was a HUGE complaint with my group. The grinding aspect was horrid, considering that everything else plays rather smoothly. How much do you cut HP by?
Second is cut the hps of the monsters and up their damage to speed up combat.
Some people on the forums have apparently found little issue with the HP's of the creatures,NPC's but I find the same as you, I vary my encounter creatures from the minor players( I cut their HP's to between 10 and 20,the minions(as per the book) and major encounter characters( as per the book with full HP's). I do also vary the style of the powers of the major characters to fit the view of the encounter. An ogre or giant character could have a knockback effect ( an STR vs AC and push back x squares) or knockdown. I generally use the system framework and customise heavily.
It sound like a lot of work but it really isn't once you've got the main system in your head.Also if you are dropping the HP of the foes a lot of the guys recommend having a bit heavier hitting foes which I also put in by using the special encounter character or characters( e.g a hobgoblin sergeant with two poleaxe elite soldiers).
Another aspect that we found as a group, the loss of background options( I know they put some stuff back in with the PHB2 but we're not big on it) so I use the background sysem from 4th Edition Classes & Races - by a guy named Stormonu(its in scribd.com you do need to join but its worth it). http://www.scribd.com/doc/3703481/4E-Classes-and-Races
The thing he's created is awesome, it's got variation on skill options (but still retaining the base system) and background stuff( which to bne honest would work in 3rd edition or pathfinder really well). His stuff also includes tons of monsters that got missed out of the 4thEd Monster Manual 1, the other classes that got missed but are now emerging with PHB2 and 3 and a lot of the classes in Stormonu's stuff is I think better than the officia( including speciality mages and spells), ranged fighter options....too much to write so take a look. it costs nothing and has really helped my game.
My other changes in game are that ALL people block line of site for AC attacks whether friend or foe and I re-introduced skill points the the formula of 1st level each trained skill garners 2 skill points plus intelligence bonus, each level brings 5 skill points plus intelligence bonus, maximum of level plus 1. And training in a skill only gives +3 not the usual +5.
My PC's have gotten to 13th level have setup two towns and a castle in the Nentir vally and are really enjoying the game so far.
I'm enjoying DMing again (and the freedom to make encounters what I want with ease). Let me know how you get on? Prossersteve@hotmail.com
On Boss type characters I will leave their hps alone, but for regular run of the mill encounters I gear from the regular monsters to go down in 4-5 hits from a non-striker. Sometimes that is cutting it by half, sometimes it is cutting it by 1/4, and if I am a hurry I just do it when it feels right in the middle of combat. Adding 5-10 damage per attack when I am doing that.
I hope this helps.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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On Boss type characters I will leave their hps alone, but for regular run of the mill encounters I gear from the regular monsters to go down in 4-5 hits from a non-striker. Sometimes that is cutting it by half, sometimes it is cutting it by 1/4, and if I am a hurry I just do it when it feels right in the middle of combat. Adding 5-10 damage per attack when I am doing that.
I hope this helps.
Extremely helpful.
I'm being vague simply because we are having a hard time elucidating exactly what's not working for us. If we knew what it was, we could fix it. So in asking for house rules I'm trying to see what others found lacking in the hopes that one of these will be the missing piece we're looking for.
The HP thing was a big point at the table. At one point it became "Jeez, we're going to win, do we still have to keep hacking at this darn thing for three more rounds?" Cutting HP seems like a really good idea. I think someone else mentioned in another thread the idea of Mooks, who go down in two-three hits like minions go down in one. That seemed like a good idea to me and after playing, an even better idea.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Another thing we found obnoxious was the single second wind per encounter. It really forces you to have to have a leader character in the same way that 3.x forced you to have a cleric and it seems like that was one of the selling points of 4e: you can play what you want.
So we proposed allowing 1 second wind, but you can spend an action point to take a second second wind. That way you can get in at least two healing per encounter usually.
Another thing we found obnoxious was the single second wind per encounter. It really forces you to have to have a leader character in the same way that 3.x forced you to have a cleric and it seems like that was one of the selling points of 4e: you can play what you want.
So we proposed allowing 1 second wind, but you can spend an action point to take a second second wind. That way you can get in at least two healing per encounter usually.
That is a very good idea, we added a healing stone. Much like some of the healing wonderious items that were in 3 and 3.5, it is a standard action for someone to direct it at a person, or a minor action to direct it at themselves, usable 1/encounter that allows them the recipent to use a healing surge. We didnt have a leader in the group so I gave out two of them, they worked pretty well. Not the best, but certainly better than nothing, and it was a major quest reward.
We have several different house rules that evolve as we play more (note we tend to have a small group 2-3 players and DM).
1. You can burn one healing surge to bring back an encounter power and two healing surges for a daily. (we do not modify creature HP and/or damage)
2. We allow bandages outside of combat. Where different types of cloth have different values (cloth 1, silk 2, etc.) and add that to your healing skill bonus divided by 5 (+10 healing skill = 2) and regain those HP every 10 minutes (you are only allowed rest and not search, move, etc.) This allows characters to pool surges for combat.
3. For creatures, we add in player characters to fight as opponents with all the abilities, feats, magic etc.
4. We add in luck points, where everyone starts with three each game session, and more are added every time you roll a critical hit or skill. A luck point allows you to roll a D6 to add to your "to hit", damage, skill roll, etc. but it must be declared before "to hit" or rolling a skill. This resets to three for the next session.
5. Minions have 1 hp per minion level and roll random damage.
6. You can use X amount of daily weapon powers (based on tier) per encounter versus per day. But once it is used, you must wait for the following day to reset.
@James
Regarding the hitpoint/damage ratio. There are several schools of thoughts. The loose and fast, or the more precise. The loose and fast adds ½ level to all attacks from the monsters while cutting their hit points anywhere from 10-50%.
The more precise school of thought tells you to do things so they make sense mathematically.
That means you go -25% hit points, +33% damage.
or -33% hit points, +50% damage
or -50% hit points, + 100% damage.
I have myself used the -25% + 33% and the -33% +50% for hundreds of hours of play, and it worked well for me. YMMV of course.
Another thing we found obnoxious was the single second wind per encounter. It really forces you to have to have a leader character in the same way that 3.x forced you to have a cleric and it seems like that was one of the selling points of 4e: you can play what you want.
So we proposed allowing 1 second wind, but you can spend an action point to take a second second wind. That way you can get in at least two healing per encounter usually.
An optimizer would tell you that one use of your AP is clearly better than the other. I'm not sure which is the better one, but I suspect getting an extra action is better than spending a surge in most cases. If you want a second second wind, I suggest simply giving it to everyone for free and call it Third Wind.
On the topic of monsters, I've been writing all of my own. The 2-hit goons were my invention. I use the damage guidelines from the DMG, which are way higher than most MM values, and I don't raise monster Con (or any stat) by 1/2 level. So my monsters tend to deal more damage, but have a bit less staying power. Fights can still drag on for a bit longer than I'd like so I'm thinking of dropping monster hp/level to 4/6/8 rather than 6/8/10. If you're interested I can post the complete guide I use to stat my monsters.
As to other house rules, I've written a complete Solution to the game's dependance on magical bling and the game's poorly scaling level bonuses.
Hope some of that helps!
An optimizer would tell you that one use of your AP is clearly better than the other. I'm not sure which is the better one, but I suspect getting an extra action is better than spending a surge in most cases.
This is my suspicion as well. Mainly because, if you have access to the healing surges, you can tap into that resource using potions (You may not get every last potential hp from the surges however). Extra actions not so much. On the other hand this house rule is very unlikely to unbalance play.
That said healing is a high demand resource - my cleric is a great healer and yet I still make sure that I'm always carrying at least 5 potions of healing on me at all times - 'cause you just never know when your going to need to heal yourself 9+ times in a single encounter - always be prepared as the boy scouts say.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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An optimizer would tell you that one use of your AP is clearly better than the other. I'm not sure which is the better one, but I suspect getting an extra action is better than spending a surge in most cases. If you want a second second wind, I suggest simply giving it to everyone for free and call it Third Wind.
On the topic of monsters, I've been writing all of my own. The 2-hit goons were my invention. I use the damage guidelines from the DMG, which are way higher than most MM values, and I don't raise monster Con (or any stat) by 1/2 level. So my monsters tend to deal more damage, but have a bit less staying power. Fights can still drag on for a bit longer than I'd like so I'm thinking of dropping monster hp/level to 4/6/8 rather than 6/8/10. If you're interested I can post the complete guide I use to stat my monsters.
As to other house rules, I've written a complete Solution to the game's dependance on magical bling and the game's poorly scaling level bonuses.
Hope some of that helps!
I'll look it over, but the input definitely helps!
Here is my Manual of Monster Construction.