I'm thinking about how to convert the ogrekin in The Hook Mountain Massacre to PRPG and I'm not sure if they should remain a template or be changed into a race. Personally I think they seem more like a race, similar to half-elves and half-orcs, rather than a template that gets added to other races. Has anyone converted the ogrekin in THMM to PRPG? Should they just be built as humans with the ogrekin template, or should they built as a new race without the human racial bonuses?
I converted them as humans with the template. The Grauls are of course all human cross breeds but other variations should be possible and I therefore suggest you keep ogrekin as a template.
I don't think Ogres care who they rape so it should be template and not a race. If it was only humans then it should be a separate race. Humans and Elves are probably the most common, but imagine the sorry thing that would be produced from a Half-Orc/Ogre or Half-Elf/Ogre mix.
hm, it's a bit strange that half-ogres (ogrekin) would be a template and yet half-orcs and half-elves are races. Are there no orc-dwarves, or elf-gnomes?
You make a good point there. The problem is those two races are well defined as a race, classics if you will, so by default they kinda need to be there as a race. Even though a template is actually what they would be best as.
As for others like orc/dwarves and elf/gnomes it could be that they just can't crossbreed. Poor excuse I know, but there isn't any evidence to support those two crossbreeds. Does that mean there aren't any? I don't know.
I'd leave it as a template.
Creative Director
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The ogrekin are VERY likely to end up in Bestiary 2. And I'd always assumed they'd stay templates.
But now... the more I think about it... the more I'm thinking that maybe they SHOULD be a race. Like half-elves or half-orcs, but with a couple of racial hit dice. We can still give them their various deformities, which can help to make an elf ogrekin look different from a human ogrekin from an orc ogrekin.
And a CR 2 giant is kinda neat sounding.
Left as a template, the ogre-kin help make it seem like your average Ogre isn't much concerned about what it mates with and suggests that Ogre's are surprisingly fecund. I think it increases the sense of weirdness and disgust they'll invoke.
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Creative Director
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Left as a template, the ogre-kin help make it seem like your average Ogre isn't much concerned about what it mates with and suggests that Ogre's are surprisingly fecund. I think it increases the sense of weirdness and disgust they'll invoke.
But changed to a race means that you don't have to build them from scratch every time, which is very compelling. Also... I'm pretty keen on the idea of not overdoing the template scene...
Hmm... perhaps doing a half-ogre (human mix) as a standard race, and having an "ogre-kin" template for all other uses? Humans are the most prolific race (or at least they are the most wide-spread), so most mixes are probably ogre-human. Everything else is probably a special case best defined via a template. Perhaps this template (and the race itself) could include a few random mutations, as well.
Stefan
Some creatures in the bestiary, mostly undead, have the monster stated out using human as a base, then a template to show how to make that monster using other races. It would be nice to have something like that for all half-breed races, or a single Half-Breed template with rules for mixing any two races together (orc-human, elf-human, ogre-human, lizardman-dwarf, etc.)
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Also... I'm pretty keen on the idea of not overdoing the template scene...
Overdoing might be bad, but please don't discount them either! Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary opened up huge worlds of monsters for my 3.5 game and really allowed me to make "new" monsters that my players had no clue what were. An elephant with an elemental template and creative description is waaaaay easier than statting out new foes from whole cloth.
Hmm, I've been going over the rules for subtypes and I found this for giants: Giants have a number of racial Hit Dice and never substitute such Hit Dice for class levels like some humanoids. Unless Ogrekin get racial hit dice I think this means they can't be a template. I still think Ogrekin should be a race and not a template. Medium-sized Ogres with 1-2 hit dice would be CR 1 wouldn't they?
How about something like this?
+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
Medium-sized
2 Racial Hit Dice of Humanoid (Giant)
+3 Natural Armour
Low-Light Vision
Automatically proficient with all weapons that have "ogre" in their name
Deformities (as in Pathfinder #3)
Init +0; Senses low-light vision; Perception +4
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17 (+4 hide armour, +3 natural)
HP 12 (2d8+3)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +0
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft. base)
Melee ogre hook +2 (1d12+1)
Str 13, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Toughness
Skills Climb +2, Perception +4
Special Abilities
- Deformities (as in Pathfinder #3)
CR 1
These stats were built off of the standard 11,11,11,10,10,10 ability array. I'm not sure if that's still being used in Pathfinder or it was changed to something else. This seems to be what regular ogres use.
These stats were built off of the standard 11,11,11,10,10,10 ability array. I'm not sure if that's still being used in Pathfinder or it was changed to something else. This seems to be what regular ogres use.
Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13,
12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
Heroic NPCs: The ability scores for a heroic NPC are:
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.
As far as I have been able to determine these apply to monsters as well.
I haven't checked other monsters, but I'm certain ogres have the same ability values in Pathfinder as they do in 3.5, which means they use the 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 ability array. Are the abilities ogres have in the Pathfinder bestiary wrong?
Ogre stats:
Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
3.5 basic array, for ogres:
Str 11 (+10), Dex 10 (-2), Con 11 (+4), Int 10 (-4), Wis 10, Cha 11 (-4)
+10 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -4 Int and Cha
PF basic NPC array, for ogres:
Str 13 (+8), Dex 10 (-2), Con 11 (+4), Int 8 (-2), Wis 12 (-2), Cha 9 (-2)
+8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, Int, Wis, Cha
I don't remember the actual Ogre ability modifiers, so I cannot say which of the two is correct. I am inclined to say ogres "only" get +8 Str (and therefore that the array I suggest is correct), but I would not bet anything on it.
EDIT: I just found them and they correspond to the 3.5 array
In 3.5 an ogres racial ability modifiers, not counting modifiers for size, are +2 Str, -4 Int, -4 Cha.
I think I've figured out how it works. Humanoids without class levels and only racial levels get 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Humanoids with NPC class levels get 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Humanoids with character class levels get 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
So, an ogrekin warrior would get Str 15, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7. An ogrekin fighter would get Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 8
In 3.5 an ogres racial ability modifiers, not counting modifiers for size, are +2 Str, -4 Int, -4 Cha.
I think I've figured out how it works. Humanoids without class levels and only racial levels get 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Humanoids with NPC class levels get 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Humanoids with character class levels get 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
So, an ogrekin warrior would get Str 15, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7. An ogrekin fighter would get Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 8
That is also the conclusion I have come to.
About ogre racial modifiers and size modifiers; that is not so clear. If you look at the savage species the statprogression and size progression are not connected. Even though an increase from medium to large normaly causes +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex.