Is it just me, or is it a terribly sub-par chapter?
Ok, audience with Red Shroud gives some intresting role-playing possibilities, that incorporeal demon is just nonsense (if played as written, he'll maybe kill a few random people. A real setback and a challenge for a party of 18th lvl characters) and the rest of the encounters are even worse.
Chasmes and Ghouls? At 18th lvl? Really?
Gorallons are tough and strong brutes but they don't have any means of flight and their bad will save makes them succeptible to dominates.
Warden of the Well. We already had a retriever as a summonable creature by Khala and once again at the Crimson Fleet base. Now, once more, just bigger and with not that much bigger Fort save, still making it a Disintegrate bait.
Overlook is intresting, I'll give it that.
And the boss of the chapter... A snake on the neck of a succubus. Even if Shami were a formidable opponent (and she's not, simply because she suffers from the same problem as many other bosses, she's medium and doesn't have any minions, not to mention items or buffs) this would still be a stupid encounter.
And a final trap of Demogorgon - a DC 17 will save to avoid feeblemind. Even the rogue of the party I'm DMing for will probably pass that save, and he has a total of +7 on will saves. And then - even more Retrievers who'll last perhaps 2 rounds! And demons who specialize in dealing non-lethal damage, and we all know that's what every monster wants, to subdue the PCs!
Problem is, so far I have leanred that players like new and different things to fight. They've fought Bar-Lguras since chapter 4 as well as bunch of other retrievers (even the Varrangoins) and this chapter offers almost nothing new in terms of encounters. Not to mention that everyone expects that a boss fight will be a climatic, tough fight (Khala, Mother, Seventh, Vanthus and bunch of Shadows) and for a near end of the campaign we get a mind-controlling snake? Really?
Of course, I'll change the most of it as I like, but I'm just baffled how such a badly written chapter was even put into the campaign.
Depending on your player characters, I would recommend either "borrowing" some of the other campaign journals' nasty critters, or homebrewing your own versions of the upgraded critters 'as written'.
For example, I am particularly fond of a specific combination of templates from the Book of Templates, although they do not suit the Savage Tide very well.
Instead, I recommend the Dreadnaught and Resilient templates from that book. Just all kinds of nasty...
Well, if it were not for the fact that he is Gargantuan, you could have used Dalmosh from the 3.5 Monster Manual V as the end boss, simply because no one who have expected it. ;)
CB Out.
If your players played Bastion of Broken Souls, you might want to consider putting in a few familiar faces there. That's what I plan to be doing anyway, if all goes according to plan the group will run into Ammet at the Wells. Depending on how things go with the Cathezar, who they'll meet a few chapters earlier, he'll either be impatient and grudgingly attentive or outright hostile. We're still in TWBG though so we've got a way to go before we get there.
If the players haven't been through BOBS they might not be as striking of an arrival, though I can't see now the sudden appearance of a Half-Dragon Balor wouldn't be very striking. (Especially if you use the "uber-fied" version of Ammet, rather than simply the base Balor with a template!)
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Indeed, wells of darkness is one of the weakest moduls ever published by Paizo. it was so bad, in fact, that I simply decided to stop buying further volumes of Dungeon and simply come up with my own way to end the campaign (as a fact I didnt really like evreything as written from the point where the PCs leave the Isle of dread- after City of Broken Idols, as it is, so my revisions are preety heavy).
how could you make it better? "rewrite it from scratch" is my only answear.
If your players played Bastion of Broken Souls
They didn't, so I'm a bit unfamiliar with anything you said, though half-dragon Balor does sound intresting.
Depending on your player characters, I would recommend either "borrowing" some of the other campaign journals' nasty critters, or homebrewing your own versions of the upgraded critters 'as written'.
That is the logical step, and I did make lots of changes on my own, it just strike me as odd how bad it is, especially compared to the rest of the campaign.
Here are my changes.
I dropped Sidith-Yeus (guecubu or whatever it is called), Chasmes and Ghouls. I dropped Warden of the Well, too and instead put Gorguth the Bleak General (from Elder Evils). Being a minion of Orcus, you could say that he invaded Gaping Maw and got defeated by Demogorgon who enslaved him or something like that. Point is, it's a cool encounter, my players like it. And now they have his nifty mount.
I left Gorallons as they are, but I allowed the party to summon some fiendish Girallons to mate with them since they aren't that much of a threat and would just waste time fighting them.
In Overlook, I replaced 4 Nightwings with 2 Nightcrawlers (to compensate loss of XP with the stuff I removed).
Also removed the idiotic snake thing and just left it as a RP encounter.
In retrospect, I should have put something else instead of Warden of the Well, and put Gorguth at the end of the chapter to serve as the chapter boss, but I didn't spend that much time rewriting the chapter, so I made some brash mistakes.
Anyways, I'm just looking forward to playing Enemies of my Enemy, these past few chapters have had too much of a feel of a filler.
The genre of Wells of Darkness is is different. it is more an exposé of horror than an action adventure. This worked decently with my group; they liked the many riddles, moral quandaries, and social negotiations in the scenario. For a group that like to smash and bash, this going to be pretty disappointing - but also fairly quick.
How is it expose of horror? And what puzzles? The only puzzle I can think of is the one concerning the Well of Ahazu, which ain't much of a puzzle if someone in the party has Tooth of Ahazu.
Unfortunately, my group's view of social interactions is - if they can kill it, they will. If not, then they'll negotiate.
I have no doubts that they would try to kill Red Shroud if I didn't replace those 2 Hezrou guardians with 2 Balors lol.
I dropped Warden of the Well, too and instead put Gorguth the Bleak General (from Elder Evils). Being a minion of Orcus, you could say that he invaded Gaping Maw and got defeated by Demogorgon who enslaved him or something like that. Point is, it's a cool encounter, my players like it. And now they have his nifty mount.
In retrospect, I should have put something else instead of Warden of the Well, and put Gorguth at the end of the chapter to serve as the chapter boss, but I didn't spend that much time rewriting the chapter, so I made some brash mistakes.
This I may borrow. Minus a few things in there - I liked Atropus, I liked Pandorym, and I liked the Leviathan, the rest was meh (especially their version of Kyuss...) - the book has gotten very little use, I hadn't thought to look there for more inspiration. Maybe have him pop up after the River opens, and have Charon show up after he's beaten? Thanks!
Yeah, that would be a suitable chapter boss, since he's CR 20 and has a nasty Gaze Attack. Maybe you could swap some of his useless feats (most of them are) for Ability Focus (Gaze Attack) but along his Aura of Despair that could be too much, it depends on the power level of your players.
Swapping his spells is a nice idea, too. Giving him Fangs of the Vampire King is a good idea. And some Bull's Strengths, etc...
I hate it when I get ideas for encounters AFTER I've played them through. -.-
He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....
He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....
Monk? ^_^
He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....Monk? ^_^
Don't think the alignment suits ;) Though there's Battle Dancer...
He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....Monk? ^_^
Is that a joke? :D
Monk is THE WORST class there is. :D
I skipped these. Since the PC's lose their memories even with a successful save, I fast-forwarded to the PC's (who last remembered going to sleep in preparation before assaulting the final well) to being at the bottom of the well with a river (and several enemies) pouring in on them. They found themselves starting with 1/2 HP, and were next to a dead snake, an enormous retriever body and a very confused Shami.
This is a really really really nice idea how to make them RP that they lost their memories and if I hadn't altered the chapter already, this is what I would have done. Just a thumbs up for the originality!
Warden of the Well...
And the boss of the chapter... A snake on the neck of a succubus. Even if Shami were a formidable opponent... this would still be a stupid encounter.
I skipped these. Since the PC's lose their memories even with a successful save, I fast-forwarded to the PC's (who last remembered going to sleep in preparation before assaulting the final well) to being at the bottom of the well with a river (and several enemies) pouring in on them. They found themselves starting with 1/2 HP, and were next to a dead snake, an enormous retriever body and a very confused Shami.
Fighting a confused battle while being doused inside a rapidly filling well was interesting. I drew the battle-map in side-view (rather than top-down) since vertical concerns were more important than horizontal ones. Since they couldn't fly out, they had to say afloat until the well completely filled.
Did you also reduce the party's available spells to account for the forgotten fight? If so, did you use any particular selection technique to decide which spells had already been used?
He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....Monk? ^_^Is that a joke? :D
Monk is THE WORST class there is. :D
I skipped these. Since the PC's lose their memories even with a successful save, I fast-forwarded to the PC's (who last remembered going to sleep in preparation before assaulting the final well) to being at the bottom of the well with a river (and several enemies) pouring in on them. They found themselves starting with 1/2 HP, and were next to a dead snake, an enormous retriever body and a very confused Shami.This is a really really really nice idea how to make them RP that they lost their memories and if I hadn't altered the chapter already, this is what I would have done. Just a thumbs up for the originality!
The flooding well is a NICE touch, one I wish I'd thought of back then.
Monk gestalts with almost everything else nicely, especially Blackguard (paladin gone Evil). Full good saves, ridiculously fast movement ... oh yeah, sign me up.
He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....Monk? ^_^Is that a joke? :D
Monk is THE WORST class there is. :D
I have to agree with Turin, it's good to drop in with a class that compensates for its lackings in Gestalt. By itself, not so much. If the guy was Lawful I'd consider it. But he's CE if I remember correctly (I can't find my copy of Elder Evils...).
I have to agree with Turin, it's good to drop in with a class that compensates for its lackings in Gestalt. By itself, not so much. If the guy was Lawful I'd consider it. But he's CE if I remember correctly (I can't find my copy of Elder Evils...).He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....Monk? ^_^Is that a joke? :D
Monk is THE WORST class there is. :D
Urm ... drat.
ex-Monk, then gestalt something else to fill in the hole maybe?
Did you also reduce the party's available spells to account for the forgotten fight? If so, did you use any particular selection technique to decide which spells had already been used?
I think giving each spellcaster 50% chance of failure on each spellcasting attempt is ok. To represent trying to cast a spell which may have been already cast.
I have to agree with Turin, it's good to drop in with a class that compensates for its lackings in Gestalt. By itself, not so much. If the guy was Lawful I'd consider it. But he's CE if I remember correctly (I can't find my copy of Elder Evils...).He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....Monk? ^_^Is that a joke? :D
Monk is THE WORST class there is. :D
Urm ... drat.
ex-Monk, then gestalt something else to fill in the hole maybe?
I was just thinking to go with Battle Dancer. It's Chaotic-only, Charisma based (so it jives well with Blackguard), gets similar unarmed progression and movement bonuses to Monk, and its poor saves won't hurt an undead much (and Blackguard shores them up well).
I was just thinking to go with Battle Dancer. It's Chaotic-only, Charisma based (so it jives well with Blackguard), gets similar unarmed progression and movement bonuses to Monk, and its poor saves won't hurt an undead much (and Blackguard shores them up well).I have to agree with Turin, it's good to drop in with a class that compensates for its lackings in Gestalt. By itself, not so much. If the guy was Lawful I'd consider it. But he's CE if I remember correctly (I can't find my copy of Elder Evils...).He's a Blackguard, right? Wonder what would gestalt well with that... :) Gah, I'm getting several chapters ahead of myself again....Monk? ^_^Is that a joke? :D
Monk is THE WORST class there is. :D
Urm ... drat.
ex-Monk, then gestalt something else to fill in the hole maybe?
Hrm ... is that in the Dragon Compendium Paizo released a few years ago by any chance?
I was just thinking to go with Battle Dancer. It's Chaotic-only, Charisma based (so it jives well with Blackguard), gets similar unarmed progression and movement bonuses to Monk, and its poor saves won't hurt an undead much (and Blackguard shores them up well).Hrm ... is that in the Dragon Compendium Paizo released a few years ago by any chance?
It is indeed :)
Hm, let's see... Every player in my group has flight capabilities (like any high level group should). Why would that combat be challenging? Once they take the air they can pellet the retrievers (who aren't really dangerous at this point) and Bar-Lguras from safe distance...
Nope, just a Dimensional Lock with a radius of one mile. Meaning no Teleportation, but other modes of movement work just fine.