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Howdy all,
One of my players sent me this as a bloodline idea for a sorcerer in Legacy of Fire. This particular player always seems to have crazy-powerful character ideas, so I'm a bit nervous about his stuff, and I'm therefore a bit biased against anything he writes.
Anyhow, please let me know what you think. Is this overpowered? Is the flavor appropriate?
I've already given him some feedback, but I'll hold off on repeating it, as I'd rather not poison the well any more than I may have already.
Thanks for the help!
Eldritch Soldier
Your family has a strong martial history and intertwined their magic with their weapons. While many of your relatives were accomplished wizards or fighters, your powers developed somewhere between the two.
Class Skills: Ride, Martial Lore.
Bonus Spells: Mount (3rd), Protection from Arrows (5th), Heroism (7th), Enlarge Person, Mass (9th), Wall of Force (11th), Contingency (13th), Greater Teleport (15th), Iron Body (17th), Time Stop (19th).
Bonus Feats: Combat feats (You are counted as a fighter of your sorcerer level -2 for the purpose of qualifying for feats).
Bloodline Arcana: Long hours of drill have augmented your martial abilities, but this focus has detracted somewhat from your magical potential. Your base attack bonus is equal to three-quarters of your hit dice (as a cleric or rogue); however you know and cast one fewer spell of each level.
Bloodline Powers: Magic for you is in the here and now, not in dusty tomes and crumbling towers. It is about change and chaos. You naturally switch between swordplay and spellcasting to devastating effect.
Bonded Weapon (Su): At 1st level, you gain a bonded object as per the arcane bond wizard class feature, though you must pick a weapon you are proficient with (to include shields capable of bashing). Your sorcerer levels stack with wizard levels you possess (if any) when determining the powers of your bonded object if you selected the bonded object option as a first level wizard. If you selected the familiar option, track your sorcerer and wizard levels separately. Rules for arcane bonds appear on page 78.
Martial Adept (Ex): At 3rd level, you may substitute the movements of a bonded weapon for the normal somatic components of a spell so long as your weapon is light or one-handed. Additionally, reduce the arcane spell failure chance of armor you wear by 5% plus an additional 5% for every four levels you possess beyond 3rd, up to 25% at 19th level.
Runic Weaponry (Sp): At 9th level you learn to inscribe mystic runes to enhance weapons.
Reinforcing Runes: Inscribing these symbols requires 50 gp in materials and one day spent in precise, delicate work. At the end of the day you may increase the hardness and hit points of the weapon by 1. This change is permanent until dispelled and may be repeated to increase the hardness and hit points to twice their original value.
Smiting Runes: These potent characters temporarily store arcane energy in a weapon or ammunition. A weapon may only have one such rune inscribed. These runes cost 50 gp in materials and require one hour to create. Additionally, you must sacrifice a spell slot and while the rune exists, you cannot regain that spell slot. A smiting rune lasts 24 hours or until used or dispelled. The first time an inscribed weapon deals damage it releases the stored energy doing +1d6 force damage per level of the spell slot sacrificed when the rune was made. One smiting rune may be applied to 5 pieces of ammunition per level of the spell slot sacrificed; ammunition only ever adds +1d6 force damage.Tactical Metamagic (Su): At 15th level, you become versatile in your use of metamagic. Rather than adding metamagic directly to a spell, as a free action you may sacrifice a spell slot of a level one higher than the normal adjustment of a metamagic feat you know in order to apply that feat to the next spell you cast the same round. You may not sacrifice more spell levels in a round for this ability than your charisma bonus. This surge of power is not without cost. For every spell level sacrificed, you take 2 damage that can only be healed naturally.
Eldritch Flurry (Ex): At 20th level, whenever you use a full attack action, you can cast any one spell you know up to 6th level as a swift action.
Bloodlines are supposed to be well, bloodlines. Your ancestor could have chased butterflies for all it matters to his\her blood.
Too blatant metagaming...
If you allow class benefits into bloodlines whats to stop 'Very High Level Eldritch Soldier' or 'Rich Eldtritch Soldier with Very Big Magic Weapons'. You could even argue that physical inheritance is a logical extensions of bloodlines but that's not what the thing was intended to do in the game. Class benefits like these should come from exploring classes IMHO.
You're the DM but I'd categorically refuse it.
When was the last time this player was DM?
Sigurd
Something to consider...
If the family of a character has a long tradition of warriors and arcane spellcasters, it doesn't necessary make him a fighter/wizard (here we go again with the gish).
Or maybe it should ? Maybe that would fit better his family line than being just a sorcerer.
Another option would be for the character to inherit a family masterwork weapon and some extra known spells at creation.
Not even mentioning the free training in arms and magic when he will later levelup (something most players neglect or underestimate).
How to put this nicely...hell no
Seems to me not only has he cherry picked just the best spells for this concept he has done the same with class ability. This is not a bloodline but a whole new class
You should at very list heavily rewrite this.
1: I would redo the bounes spells, keeping the first 2 only
2> you do not count as fighter levels at all, and only allow select combat feats
3> Bonded weapon must be one you are proficient with, no shields
4>Martial Adept : hell no
5>runic weapon;Make it touch attack spells only, from a very small list and he must know the spell and at lest 50gp/level
6>Eldritch Flurry: again hell no
just my thoughts, and the fluff needs work to
Eldritch Soldier
Your family has a strong martial history and intertwined their magic with their weapons. While many of your relatives were accomplished wizards or fighters, your powers developed somewhere between the two.
Sounds Like Work
The familiarity of martial rigor has made you uninspired and a bad pupil. -1 Bab for anything involving a traditional weapon used by any of your ancestry.
My Uncle Died There!
Extensive exposure to the dangers of magic and combat have left you shaken by a history of pain sorrow and defeat. Whenever you are shaken or fearful double duration.
Gotta be an Easier Way!
Magic will solve your problem - that's what magic does for your family. Unless you are casting a spell subtract 3 from your initiative.
I think they might be enemies?
Whenever you encounter powerful creatures or factions there is a %10 chance that your family has fought them before. The initial attitude modifier for creatures that dislike your family is two steps worse.
There is a 3% chance that old allies recognize and remember you. For these initial attitudes are two steps better.
Over Specialization
You were denied so many things in your childhood because you retroactively reprogrammed your parents to create super soldiers. You have no memory for plot elements beyond armor and weapon descriptions.
Non player characters instinctively feel you assessing your ability to kill them and it creeps them out. -3 to all your own diplomacy checks. -1 to all party checks if they are obviously affiliated with you.
Whispers
Did your family kill one of theirs? Didn't that guy just look at you funny? What are they talking about in the corner?
Long Grudge
Your family prowess and your resemblance to figures of such a rare success leads others to never underestimate you. All those familiar with your illustrious history will be extra prepared to crush you quickly for fear of your abilities.
Assign a value for your family prestige between 1 and 4. Add this to your level for determining challenge ratings.
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First off, thank you all for your comments.
Bloodlines are supposed to be well, bloodlines. Your ancestor could have chased butterflies for all it matters to his\her blood.
Too blatant metagaming...
If you allow class benefits into bloodlines whats to stop 'Very High Level Eldritch Soldier' or 'Rich Eldtritch Soldier with Very Big Magic Weapons'. You could even argue that physical inheritance is a logical extensions of bloodlines but that's not what the thing was intended to do in the game. Class benefits like these should come from exploring classes IMHO.
You're the DM but I'd categorically refuse it.
When was the last time this player was DM?
I have to say, I didn't even think about the fact that the "soldier" concept doesn't fit in well with bloodlines. I guess following this tactic, you could say "I come from a long line of carpenters! Fear my awesome power over worked and unworked lumber!"
To answer your question he last DMed earlier this year; however, I haven't played in one of his campaigns in about 5 years.
How to put this nicely...hell no
Seems to me not only has he cherry picked just the best spells for this concept he has done the same with class ability. This is not a bloodline but a whole new class
You should at very list heavily rewrite this.
1: I would redo the bounes spells, keeping the first 2 only
2> you do not count as fighter levels at all, and only allow select combat feats
3> Bonded weapon must be one you are proficient with, no shields 4>Martial Adept : hell no
5>runic weapon;Make it touch attack spells only, from a very small list and he must know the spell and at lest 50gp/level 

6>Eldritch Flurry: again hell no
I felt that it was cherry picked as well. This player is a "build"er and a long contributor to the old character optimization boards. I don't personally think there's necessarily anything wrong with that - if he enjoys that part of the game, let him enjoy it - but it is a big reason that I am afraid of his suggestions.
With this submission, I was most put off by the bonus feats, the bloodline arcana, and the "eldritch flurry" capstone. Additionally, I honestly have no idea what he's trying to say with the "tactical metamagic" ability, and I've asked for clarification.
Again, thank you all for the comments. Any suggestions on how to allow a martial styled bloodline similar to this but not this broken?
I would consider making his bloodline a class and allowing a few feat based sorcerer abilities. If that's what he's really looking for that might be fun.
Truthfully, his list of abilities looks interesting and it reads like a class.
Sigurd
A suggestion for a new Bloodline :
The Dead Sorcerer
Description : Your family has been wiped out by an unknown force during the last war, slaughtered to the last one, men, women and children.
Bloodline Arcana : As the scion of a powerful clan of arcane masters, you were destined to become one of the greatest sorcerers of your epoch.
Bloodline Powers : Unfortunately, you are dead, killed with the rest of your family.
As a bloodline, it's absurd. The way I understand it, Bloodline is suppose to represent why the arcane spark of magic is so innate in you - having magical beings, monsters, and mages in your family tree all adequately explain that. Being descended from soldiers does NOT explain why you are able to spontaneously cast spells and have unusual abilities. This is obviously an attempt at a Gish class in sorceror's clothing.
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The board monster ate my first post, with a recommended new list of spells, but suffice it to say, there are LOTs of spells more appropriate than the ones proposed for this bloodline, which reads more like a player's wishlist than flavor for a bloodline.
Secondly, I would never allow a bloodline to alter the BAB of a class, in fact not even with a couple feats would I allow that. That I would reserve for multiclassing or PrCs, with their own built in penalties for changing classes.
I recommend you use the abyssal bloodline as a guide for building this bloodline in a more balanced fashion. Speaking as a DM for a group of all gnome sorcerers that each took different bloodlines, abyssal and draconic are the "melee" flavors of all the bloodlines, with abyssal more towards brute force. If the proposed bloodline ability is not in line with the abyssal version, its probably overbalanced.
To sum up, this appears more to be an attempt to make an eldritch knight, while not having to be penalized for multi-classing. The abilities look cherry picked from several other classes and prestige classes in Pathfinder. I see nothing here that cannot be accomplished with that an eldritch knight build and a few feats, which would be an easier solution. I think you will find that allowing this bloodline will overpower the sorcerer, and make the game unfair to the other players, and the party more difficult to design encounters for. Not to mention mostly invalidating the role of other party melee classes.
Class Skills: Ride, Martial Lore.
What is martial lore? It sounds like that feat from ToB? Anyway he should only get one skill not two.
Bonus Spells: Mount (3rd), Protection from Arrows (5th), Heroism (7th), Enlarge Person, Mass (9th), Wall of Force (11th), Contingency (13th), Greater Teleport (15th), Iron Body (17th), Time Stop (19th).
I am to lazy to check the levels of those spells, but they should be gained one level after a sorcerer could choose them. That is how the other bloodlines are.
Bonus Feats: Combat feats (You are counted as a fighter of your sorcerer level -2 for the purpose of qualifying for feats).
He should have a specifically named set of feats to choose from like every other bloodline. The way it is written now, it gets better with any splat book that you happen to allow
Bloodline Arcana: Long hours of drill have augmented your martial abilities, but this focus has detracted somewhat from your magical potential. Your base attack bonus is equal to three-quarters of your hit dice (as a cleric or rogue); however you know and cast one fewer spell of each level.
WTF. If he wants medium BAB tell him to play a battle sorcerer. What he seems to be doing is using this bloodline to get the variant class in UA, and add some stuff to it.
[b]Martial Adept (Ex): At 3rd level, you may substitute the movements of a bonded weapon for the normal somatic components of a spell so long as your weapon is light or one-handed. Additionally, reduce the arcane spell failure chance of armor you wear by 5% plus an additional 5% for every four levels you possess beyond 3rd, up to 25% at 19th level.
It seem like he is trying to get into medium armor without a failure chance eventually. Once again direct him to the battle sorcerer.
I dont like Runic magic, and the last two are just tricks to gain free spells.
It is your game, but I would deny him.
I could go on about why I wouldn't allow this, but honestly everyone else has already nailed it. If he wants to play an armored, mounted, sword-swinging, spell casting powerhouse direct him toward Ultima Online. They are all the rage there :)
First, to those whom it applies to, rather than continuing to make and act on petty assumptions, feel free to ask questions.
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@Sigurd:
Thanks for the fairly constructive criticism. As it happens, I was running a shadowrun 4th ed game about 4 months ago. Also, I like YOUR idea for a sorcerer bloodline. It made me laugh. :)
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@Seldriss:
The Arcane bond (object) actually does give you a masterwork weapon at level 1, and I don't think extra known spells at creation would be fair to other sorcerers.
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@seekerofshadowlight:
As the bonus spells given in a bloodline coincide with levels the sorcerer gains new spells of his highest level anyways, they're hardly important other than to use as detractors (e.g. forcing a sorcerer to have a less than useful spell) which none of the bloodlines seem to do. There's not much point in cherry picking spells for a new bloodline unless you're getting them from a different list.
The class abilities shown to you lot were a first draft. They were ill defined and open to abuse. They have since been redone to better fall in line with the published bloodlines, though at least two still need work.
Ideally, I would simply make a new base class, but since I'm essentially looking for a slightly martial sorcerer this seemed the better, quicker way to fit it into a game with 8 players. In my experience, new classes take a lot more play testing than new abilities
1: The spell list was redone, and the 2nd and 8th level spells kept.
2: The feat list was whittled down to the 8 the other bloodlines have (being able to look at the book really helps)
3: I didn't think to add the part about having to be proficient with the weapon since it was simply a restricted version of the Arcane bloodline/Wizard ability (which has no such requirement). I'm not sure if shields that are capable of bashing would be considered a weapon for the normal class feature or not...
4: Perhaps you read something into this I do not. It seems to me that the first draft of this ability as written is a slower progression of the Arcane Armor Training/Master Feats with a 5% bonus at level 20. Or perhaps it's the part about not having to have a hand free to cast that has you so rankled.
5: You know this ability doesn't channel the actual spell, right? I thought that was clear. It gives you a onetime +(spell level)d6 damage for 50gp and an hour. Oh, and it makes your weapon harder to sunder.
6: You're spot on about eldritch flurry, but then again we're only playing to 15 or 16 so I don't much care what the capstone is. How about "Dead". That's a good one. You reach level 20 and die.
Finally, yes, the fluff does need work. Probably a lot. This was put up on our group's wiki mostly so we wouldn't have a blank "idea submissions" page, and as an example for the 4 new players.
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@The Shining Fool:
My cherry picked spells would have been
1) Shield, True Strike, or Color Spray. It's really a tossup.
2) Web or Scorching Ray
3) Phantom Steed or Fly
4) Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, or Enervation
5) Cloud Kill or Dominate Person
6) Greater Dispel Magic
7) Greater Polymorph or Limited Wish
8) Dominate Monster, Wish, Shapechange
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@Lyingbastard: Yes, this is an attempt at a gish class without making a whole new class.
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@redcelt32: Feel free to see my actual wish list just above. I'd be interested to see your spell suggestions. Rather than going with what would be useful in a war, I ended up going with what would be useful to a solder in the second draft.
The altered BAB was based off the cleric alternate class feature in the campaign setting book. A cleric can give up their domains (powers and the extra spell of every level) for an increase to full BAB and d10 Hit Dice. I hardly think an increase to medium BAB for the cost of a spell of every level and a spell known of every level (the built in penalty) is so far out of balance.
I hadn't read the PF Eldritch Knight yet (one moment...), but considering there's no experience penalty for multi-classing, you really lose nothing but a spell casting level when you take eldritch night (Maybe 2, we're using a house rule for weapon proficiencies). The favored class bonus is easily subsumed by the 2 extra hit point you'll get on average every level from the increased HD. Plus the Spell Critical capstone ability is easily as good as any of the published bloodline abilities and able to be had 3 levels sooner.
By the way, what classes and prestige classes did I cherry pick abilities from?
An eldritch knight build, assuming you based it on a sorcerer would end up with 17 BAB compared to the 15 BAB my first draft had, though it would only have 3 castings of one 9th level spell versus the 5 castings of 2 9th level spells.
Allowing the first draft would indeed overpower the sorcerer, though I would strive not to overshadow the other players. I think I did that quite well with my last character in one of the Fool's games. Whereas I doubt he'll have any trouble designing encounters. He's quite adept. Oh, and even the first draft would not invalidate the role of other party melee classes. That's just absurd.
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@wraithstrike
First, you do realize your name is the same as one of the worst spells written in 3.5, right?
Now then; Martial Lore is from the Tome of Battle. It is one of the non-pathfinder books explicitly allowed in our game (all others are subject to DM approval). We also use it as part of the house ruled weapon proficiency system. The bloodline now has intimidate as the only class skill. The initial draft was written in about 30 minutes with nothing but my memory of the Pathfinder Core Rules and Campaign Setting books. I didn't realize all the bloodlines had only one skill.
The bonus spells are of the correct level and gained at the correct level.
Combat feats were really a place holder until I got around to whittling down a list. I only knew I initially wanted them to be of the Combat variety. And it has been cut to 8.
Battle Sorcerer is not currently in the books allowed in this game. See above for the basis for changing the BAB.
I was not trying to get into medium armor without a failure chance eventually. I knew most medium armor and a shield would still have a failure chance even with a 25% reduction. I explicitly did not want to negate it completely... then I found out about the Arcane Armor Training feat and had to add in the 'no stacking past 25% bit'
Can you go into your opinion of Runic Magic more? I'd be interested in hearing how it can be improved.
The "last two [abilities]" are not tricks to gain free spells. You actually use up your spell much faster if you take advantage of them.
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@Netromancer:
I actually do not want to play an "armored, mounted, sword-swinging, spell casting powerhouse". I want to play a sorcerer able to combine firearms and magic, but I do not want to cater a class to that idea. I would rather create a generic set of abilities that can be used by other players or in another game. Something that can appeal to a wider audience.
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I have to say, I was really surprised at the uncivil nature of a lot of the posts. I mean, I understand the internet is the internet, and people will be people (AKA http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/). But this is a lot of negativity, hostility, and piss-poor expectations lain on someone you've never met (except possibly Sigurd), asked about, or have good reason to doubt. If the Fool wants to post the second draft he may, but it'll be a few days or a few drinks before I come read this level of crap again. Hell, the CharOp boards are friendlier.
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The altered BAB was based off the cleric alternate class feature in the campaign setting book. A cleric can give up their domains (powers and the extra spell of every level) for an increase to full BAB and d10 Hit Dice. I hardly think an increase to medium BAB for the cost of a spell of every level and a spell known of every level (the built in penalty) is so far out of balance.
I hadn't read the PF Eldritch Knight yet (one moment...), but considering there's no experience penalty for multi-classing, you really lose nothing but a spell casting level when you take eldritch night (Maybe 2, we're using a house rule for weapon proficiencies). The favored class bonus is easily subsumed by the 2 extra hit point you'll get on average every level from the increased HD. Plus the Spell Critical capstone ability is easily as good as any of the published bloodline abilities and able to be had 3 levels sooner.
By the way, what classes and prestige classes did I cherry pick abilities from?
An eldritch knight build, assuming you based it on a sorcerer would end up with 17 BAB compared to the 15 BAB my first draft had, though it would only have 3 castings of one 9th level spell versus the 5 castings of 2 9th level spells.
Allowing the first draft would indeed overpower the sorcerer, though I would strive not to overshadow the other players. I think I did that quite well with my last character in one of the Fool's games. Whereas I doubt he'll have any trouble designing encounters. He's quite adept. Oh, and even the first draft would not invalidate the role of other party melee classes. That's just absurd.
1. The cleric build you are talking about gave up both their domains for the same incremental increase you are talking about (1/2-3/4 vs 3/4 to full)which is a pretty large penalty, similar to a sorcerer with no bloodline. If you were a wizard, it might be similar, but sorcerers get more spells per level, so imo its not equal. YMMV
2. My point about the eldritch knight is- why complicate things by creating a whole new mechanic for something when one already exists that can be used and has been tested as balanced? You could create a divine arcane bloodline too, and add a bunch of abilities in that make a character much like a cleric/sorcerer, but that too is not necessary when you can just multi-class. The closest they came to this was tossing in some minor healing with the celestial bloodline. And the penalty for multiclassing is no longer XP, but instead lost abilities you can in that class as you advance, like positive energy bursts, sorcerer bloodline powers, etc.
3. As far as whether or not you would overshadow the other players or invalidate them, the question is not would you, but could you. Your DM was asking if it was balanced, at which point you have to consider the impact if the build in question was exploited. Arcane caster are already quite powerful as they advance, adding in a good deal of fighting skill and capability without the penalty of spellcasting levels could create a character that can hack and slash on par with melee classes, yet also stand back and blast or control the battlefield with the arcane casters.
4. The spelllist was more focused on personal combat skills, like truestrike, bull strength, haste, transformation, heroism, etc. I suppose you would have to define for this bloodline whether you meant personal soldier or a support caster for soldiers, since the two spelllists would be quite different.
Obviously the bottom line is whether you and your DM are happy with the build. Based on how the other bloodlines are built, and how the rest of the classes are balanced, this is not in balance with the rest of the Core Rulebook. We have no way of knowing your personal playstyle with your character, so sitting here in the forums, we have to consider only the build specifics. Optimize this build, and you can create a very powerful character, both from a melee and sorcerer perspective. So, not absurd when you view it from this perspective.
I would suggest that if you still wanted to pursue this build, you make a weaker bloodline, then take that bloodline and flesh it out some, and turn it into a sorcerer prestige class, much like dragon disciple does with the draconic bloodline. DD offers much more than the base bloodline, enhanced specifically in the direction of an improvement on the original.
I'm against it simply because soldier skills aren't innate magical powers. They're the combination of physical prowess and experience that combine to give a superhuman result, and as such aren't reasonable to 'inherit' as the fluff indicates.
The other thing is, you're getting an awful lot without having to give much up. One spell per level, which your attributes will probably compensate for, in exchange for a highly increased BAB, a large number of fighter bonus feats, and reduced arcane spell failure chance when armored.
It's absurd.
This isn't a "slightly martial sorceror" - that's a regular sorceror who spends their feats on weapon proficiencies or other combat feats. This is a class that gets improved combat performance, plus their regular feats, plus fighter feats, at the cost of one spell per level.
Well first of all kadance, welcome. Secondly I am not sure what you are wanting here. I myself would not allow your bloodline. It needs such a massive overhaul and it really is not a bloodline but a base outline of a new class
To be honest if one of my players brought me this I would tell them no. I would ask they play something else of give me a better Ideal of just what they want, and it seems what you want is not a bloodline but a whole new class
You could prob play a bard( refulff his ability as war or mystic chants) and ask to add a few wizard spells to his list but I get the feeling you want the sorcerer power but not the limits of the class. An there is no core arcane fighter class, maybe your GM will allow a 3pp class? spell blade is pretty good, even if his spell list needs trimmed
I'd strongly advise the player in question to plan on simply playing a fighter 1/sorcerer 6 (any existing bloodline)/edritch knight (or arcane archer, if looking for good ranged combat, now that the latter gets 7/10 spellcasting). The loss of two levels of spellcasting is quite intentional in the design of the Eldritch Knight, attempts at circumventing it notwithstanding.
Full spellcasting, 3/4 BAB, armored casting, full arcane spells list access, and various other class features makes a new class that rivals the cleric and wizard in terms of tier -- the only thing keeping it from top Tier 1 status is the lack of ability on swapping out spells from day to day.
I didn't think many of the above posts were uncivil. But the opinions on the bloodline just seemed like common sense. This really is a "have your cake and eat it too" class option. Which attempts to circumvent the time it would take to make a fighter/mage build by the existing rules.
While I understand what this was going for it's obviously unbalanced. So much so that I think you should have expected to be told exactly that when you posted it. Yeah, some of the posts (including my own) might seem a bit sarcastic, but more out of the idea that you already know it isn't a viable build, not out of any particular malice. If you were offended, I apologize.
Also as an afterthought, many of us on this messageboard are seeing these kinds of character builds pop up very regularly, and almost always they are overpowered. Some of us might be getting a bit jaded when dealing with overpowered fighter/mage ideas. Not your fault, but it is what it is.
Yes, my advice would be to ask your DM to spin a Bard that uses martial stances and tactical advices (perform : leadership?) as a way to use Bardic performances
Work with your DM to tweak the performance and spell lists for flavor (you could maybe change some of the less "martial-fluff" performances for combat feats, and drop some mind control spells for more tactical / area control spells) Note also that a small selection of cure spells is a must for any soldier.
Anyway, I fell you would have a more balanced base to build upon for a Gish type class by using the Bard - Doing so with the sorcerer does seems a little over the edge to me - just compare your bloodline with the other ones - seems to me it's way more powerful, even taking the restrictions into account.
@wraithstrike
First, you do realize your name is the same as one of the worst spells written in 3.5, right?
What does that have to do with anything? I am assuming you are the builder in question. The OP opened up saying you made overpowered characters, which is normally a nice way of saying munchkin. That did put me on edge before I even read the post, but I still think the class as originally written was too powerful
Now then; Martial Lore is from the Tome of Battle.
I thought I said that in my last post
Combat feats were really a place holder until I got around to whittling down a list. I only knew I initially wanted them to be of the Combat variety. And it has been cut to 8.
I was never informed of this
I was not trying to get into medium armor without a failure chance eventually. I knew most medium armor and a shield would still have a failure chance even with a 25% reduction. I explicitly did not want to negate it completely... then I found out about the Arcane Armor Training feat and had to add in the 'no stacking past 25% bit'Can you go into your opinion of Runic Magic more? I'd be interested in hearing how it can be improved.
The "last two [abilities]" are not tricks to gain free spells. You actually use up your spell much faster if you take advantage of them.
As I said before the DM's warning set us on edge, well at least me anyway. I will read it again, with out so much prejudgement(could not think of a better word) and post my thoughts on it tonight.
Next time I will ask the DM to invite the player so I can speak to him myself.
The class abilities shown to you lot were a first draft. They were ill defined and open to abuse.
For the record, I thought they were thoughtfully and very effectively chosen. I've tucked them aside for some future use.
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I think your game mechanic is wrong though. Were I another player at the table I'd be a bit miffed at your "shortcut". Here's my reasoning...
How is this fundamentally different from a "Sorcerer Sorcerer Bloodline"
Your parents were great sorcerers ......
Or a "Sorcerer Fighter\Thief bloodline"
Or even "Draconic Archmage Bloodline"
I think this twists the rules to make class abilities innate. Is it fair to say this is a possible source of concern?
Bloodlines should confine themselves to racial traits and represent races with understood legendary strengths. If classes can be races in this context then the sorcerer becomes a multiclassed character costing half the experience.
To me it is no different from a fighter asking for a single feat that represents 5 sorcerer levels. The fighter may say "but it takes me 10 levels to get it, so I'm weaker". It's still too much.
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Of course, you guys can do as you wish but I think this idea has been rejected on structural grounds by most people as unbalanced. You sir, should not take shortcuts and post a new class.
Truthfully, I'd like to see it. You seem to have a good mind for this.
Sigurd
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And if you're going to be a challenging player offer to DM for Shining Fool so the shoe's on the other foot. :)
Knock it down to bard spellcasting, then you have the beginnings of a potentially good melee caster type.