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Ok we had this come up at the end of a round. A player has 9 PAs points and can afford up to 1500 gp in buying a item. He buys a Mithral chain shirt (1100gp), no big deal. Now it states you can at anytime buy a item of +1(since mithral items are considered MW quality already he doesnt have to pay the 150gp) so can he just spend the 1000gp to make it +1? It would really be 2100gp total which is over the 1500gp limit. We decided he cannot do it as the most he can spend is 1500gp on any and all items bought. Is that correct you have a limit of how many things you can buy totalling to 1500gp limit? Can he at the next game round actually just pay 1000gp and make it +1 mithral chain shirt? Trying to see what the correct usage for buying items (non-magic and magic).
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Ok we had this come up at the end of a round. A player has 9 PAs points and can afford up to 1500 gp in buying a item. He buys a Mithral chain shirt (1100gp), no big deal. Now it states you can at anytime buy a item of +1(since mithral items are considered MW quality already he doesnt have to pay the 150gp) so can he just spend the 1000gp to make it +1? It would really be 2100gp total which is over the 1500gp limit. We decided he cannot do it as the most he can spend is 1500gp on any and all items bought. Is that correct you have a limit of how many things you can buy totalling to 1500gp limit? Can he at the next game round actually just pay 1000gp and make it +1 mithral chain shirt? Trying to see what the correct usage for buying items (non-magic and magic).
You where correct that he couldn't buy the item now as it is above his limit of 1500gp.
He will also not be able to upgrade it after the next game as this would push the value of the item above his limit.
He will be able to upgrade it (pay the 1000gp) once he reached 13 AP.
There is no limit how many items below the limit you buy. That would be crazy. Are 10 Cure Light Wound potions 10 items below the limit (sorry - can't come up with better example - but I hope you get the idea).
This leaves one gray area - provided the player finds a +1 mithril chain-shirt on the chronicle of his next game - would he be allowed to upgrade the existing one for 1000gp or would he need to sell the existing one half price but be allowed to buy a new one for 2100gp. Well - this is probably just theoretical.
I hope this helps
Thod
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If he finds a +1 mithral shirt on a chronicle before he's able to afford to buy it using his PA, he can pay 2,100 gp to buy it, and sell his existing shirt for 1/2 price. Items from chronicles are what they are. You can't upgrade them, nor can you upgrade into them.
This is very similar to a previous question regarding strength bows. A bow found on a chronicle sheet can not have it's strength rating modified, but one purchased with PA can.
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With all that reasoning you have said then a player cannot buy full plate mail until 9PAs and then cannot make it MW and magicial until 13PAs. It states that anyone can buy up to +1 items and also buy special materials as well (except dragonhide)at anytime. I am not saying that this is right I am just saying if a warrior, per se wants to buy a MW set of full plate 1650gp and i want to buy a mithral chain shirt 1100gp it is the same thing. If said fighter was to also say "I want to make it +1"(bringing the cost to 2650gp) which is viable to the rules that anyone can purchase +1 items, then why could i not make the mithral chain shirt armor +1? I get the idea behind the limiting the cost of magic items to however much PAs you have but this i think is well within the rules. By all the reasons i have stated buying magical full plate armor would take a character if he was lucky and got 2 PAs per adventure 7 rounds of play!
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Garret
I might be wrong. Your 9 AP at the start of the question combined with the 1500 gp limit served as a red herring to me and I didn't answer what you were actually after. I just checked back page 22 - always available items. Always available items are independent of cost and AP.
The question therefore should be - is the +1 Mithral chain shirt an always available item - then it's independent of cost and AP. If it is, then he could buy it any time - and therefore should also be able to update it any time.
The most expensive item under this interpretation of the always available items seems to me a Full Plate Adamantine +1 Plate Armour which should be legal with 0 AP as an always available item.
This would be 17650 GP and probably a while before you can afford it..
If this is available then he should be able to buy a +1 mithral shirt also any time as well as upgrade it.
This leads me to the bit that seems not covered. I'm unsure about the stacking of +1 and material.
A +1 armour is fine as long as it is a basic armour from chapter 6
A special material armour is fine as long as it is basic armour from chapter 6
The player wouldn't even have to wait to reach 9 AP.
A +1 special material armour/weapon - this is were I'm not sure.
So again - the question should be - is a +1 mithral chain shirt an always available item. Or to be more general is stacking of material AND +1 allowed for always available items or not. Either or is fine - but the stacking would benefit from an official opinion..
You don't have to worry about the fighter wanting a Full Plate - he can buy it as soon as he has the cash.
Thod
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Thod:
I am lucky you are more eloquent writer than I am as what you said is exactly what i wanted to say! I also think that if it is an always available item than PAs do not need to be a part of the equation and special materials are included. Interesting to see what others think about the ruleing and what Joshua Frost thinks as well.
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Thod:
I am lucky you are more eloquent writer than I am as what you said is exactly what i wanted to say! I also think that if it is an always available item than PAs do not need to be a part of the equation and special materials are included. Interesting to see what others think about the ruleing and what Joshua Frost thinks as well.
Looking at page 22 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, the same entry which gives you access to a longsword or a suit of full-plate gives access to a cold iron longsword or mithral full-plate.
If we look at the wording it says: "All [items] from Chapter 6 ... This ... does include the other special materials."
It then says: +1 armor. If you can buy a +1 longsword, you can buy a +1 cold-iron longsword as the same rule which gives access to a longsword gives access to a cold-iron longsword. If you did not have access to the cold-iron longsword you would not have access to the longsword.
Finally, at the bottom of the first column on page 22, it says "a masterwork weapon can always be upgraded to a +1 weapon..."
So as far as I can tell, PA only applies to items which are not on the list on page 22 of the Guide.
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Finally, at the bottom of the first column on page 22, it says "a masterwork weapon can always be upgraded to a +1 weapon..."So as far as I can tell, PA only applies to items which are not on the list on page 22 of the Guide.
Pedr
Yes - PA only apply to items not included on the page 22. But you include an interpretation in your reasoning.
Lets start with the 'can always be upgraded to a +1 weapon ...'
Just assume you have a player with 0AP who has enough money and got a Frost Longsword via the Cronicle sheet. Now - if I follow the line as written above - and I'm fully aware I have taken it out of context - I can upgrade the Frost Longsword to a +1 Frost Longsword as it is a MW Longsword which is an always available item - which just by chance appears to be magic as well.
I hope you see were I'm coming from. The wording doesn't rule out stacking of material and +1 - but it also doesn't explicitly allow it.
Originally I felt I knew what I was answering here - by now I can see both sides of the argument. Don't get me wrong - I don't say you are wrong - but I also don't say your interpretation is right either.
Now - please excuse me if I muddy the waters even more and throw in another issue.
Are we talking about a Mithral Chainshirt or a Chainshirt made out of a special material called mithral.
Is there a difference - well - the first is on Page 466 - this is in the Specific Armour Section. This one should need AP to buy.
On the other hand - a chainshirt made out of mithral should fall under page 22 of the Pathfinder Society guide and should be an always available item.
Dwarvenplate aka Full Plate made from adamantine, Elven Chain, Adamantine Breastplate, Darkwood Buckler, Darkwood Shield, Mithral Heavy Shield are the other specific armour items which suffer the same issue.
In my interpretation all armour on pages 464-467 should require PA - but all of the above ones seem always available items according to page 22 of the Society Rules if you say these are standard items made from special material.
The question therefore is - which rule takes precedent.
Sorry for dragging up more issues as answers. But I hope it is now pretty clear how the issue arises.
Thod
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If you are unconvinced by the upgrade rule, can you address the point I make here: "If you can buy a +1 longsword, you can buy a +1 cold-iron longsword as the same rule which gives access to a longsword gives access to a cold-iron longsword. If you did not have access to the cold-iron longsword you would not have access to the longsword."
The rules say that all basic armor (etc) from chapter 6 is available. 'Basic' here includes "the other special materials such as alchemical silver and cold iron". So a chain shirt made from mithral is a basic item.* It is no different from a chain shirt made of steel. Or a longsword. Or a cold-iron longsword. "You may always purchase ... basic [items] from Chapter 6 ... This ... does include the other special materials...". 'This' can only refer to 'basic [items] as there is no other noun it can be pointing to.
So if you can buy a +1 longsword (combining point 2 with point 1) then you can buy a +1 cold-iron longsword (also combining point 2 with point 1) and you can buy a +1 chain shirt made of mithral (combining point 3 with point 1). I'm afraid my position is that the wording does clearly (if not explicitly) allow 'stacking'; no other interpretation makes sense of the words written on page 22.
*I agree that the presence of the mithral chain shirt on page 466 is confusing. Is there a price or properties difference between the two? If not then where you have a rule which says 'if you qualify in this fashion you can buy item x' and a rule which says (without qualifications) 'you can buy item x' then you can buy item x as the rules are entirely about telling you what you can buy, and so the wider/more permissive rule functions.
There's a possibility that those are listed in the 'magic items' section for historical reasons and so that they can easily be referenced in random treasure allocation tables.
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Pedr
All your reasoning makes sense. It is the 'if not explicitly' which I just can't tell how it is intended. I got bitten here once when I assumed to know how the responsible people here would think.
I talk about encumbrance and weight of clothes. D&D 3.0 and 3.5 didn't count one suit of cloth - James Jacobs did somewhere on the boards say he didn't bother in his games either - so 'clearly' this did mean you don't have to count one clothing weight for encumbrance for PFS.
Jason Buhlman came down on me like a ton of bricks and ruled differently. Since then I'm a little bit more careful wording my opinion here.
Back to your question. Stacking of material and +1 is neither explicitly allowed or disallowed. Yes - reading it, it would seem you interpretation makes a lot of sense. All I'm saying is - I can't tell if the designers wanted to allow stacking or not. Therefore if they answer this question it should solve related issues in the future.
About items on page 464-466. This falls into a similar area where I don't know the intentions of the designers. The price is the same - but some have specific names - like Dwarven Plate. Does the ecistence of a specific name make it non-basic. This would lead to the absurd possibility that more weird combinations not listed on pages 464-466 are allowed but the most common which have specific names might be disallowed.
I do interpret the rule on page 22 in the same way as you do - a chain shirt made of mithral should be covered. But there is an inconsistency and therefore I would like to know what is the intension of the designers - instead of just apply RAW.
I hope this helps.
Thod
I agree with Watcher; a +1 suit of armor is always available and mithral armor is always available. Why wouldn't +1 mithral armor be always available?
There is a "little" thread stickied here called Pathfinder Society Rules 2.0 F.A.Q. and on Oct. 27th Joshua already answered this question, so here are the relevant posts:
Hey Josh,
I know you can buy +1 Magic armor anytime no matter your PA, but can that +1 Armor be made of special material?
So can I buy a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt no matter what my PA if I can afford it?
Yup. Both +1 armor and mithril are always available.
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There is a "little" thread stickied here called Pathfinder Society Rules 2.0 F.A.Q. and on Oct. 27th Joshua already answered this question, so here are the relevant posts:
Hey Josh,
I know you can buy +1 Magic armor anytime no matter your PA, but can that +1 Armor be made of special material?
So can I buy a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt no matter what my PA if I can afford it?
Yup. Both +1 armor and mithril are always available.
thanks. I did read the whole lot once but seems I'm not up to date. My only excuse - just back from a CON on the weekend and I spend Friday preparing.
Good someone around here will remember official rulings.
Thod
