|
In the PH description of Bucklers, the rules state that you can use the arm the buckler is strapped to for other things. You can hold an object and even attack with an off-hand weapon.
When you're wearing a Buckler and attack with an off-hand weapon, the rules state you lose the Buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round and the off-hand attack suffers a -1 penalty because of the extra weight on you arm. What about two-handed weapons? Can you use say, a greatsword, while wearing a Buckler and still keep the AC bonus?
|
When you're wearing a Buckler and attack with an off-hand weapon, the rules state you lose the Buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round and the off-hand attack suffers a -1 penalty because of the extra weight on you arm.
Masterwork reduces the armor check penalty of a buckler to 0. Mithril could potentially reduce it by 1 more. Any chance that either of those could reduce the -1 to off-hand attacks to 0?
|
|
Nope. Bucklers get strapped to your wrist. If you're using your hand to do something, like holding a great sword, you're not holding your buckler up defensively.
What's your judgement call?
Complete Warrior has a feat called "Improved Buckler Defense"
Improved Buckler Defense
You can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
I plan on playing a fighter specialized in two-handed weapons for an upcoming campaign. As a GM, would you allow this feat to be applied to attacking with a two-handed weapon?
The -1 penalty has nothing to do with the Armor Check Penalty. You should take this penalty when fighting two-handed.
Both the standard buckler rules and improved buckler defense both use similar language. The most literal readings is that either:
But be prepared for a DM to nix either of these two (I prefer the first) and go with the idea that fighters can't have nice things idea, and to claim that you lose the AC bonus but IBD doesn't give it back.
Nope. Bucklers get strapped to your wrist. If you're using your hand to do something, like holding a great sword, you're not holding your buckler up defensively.What's your judgement call?
Complete Warrior has a feat called "Improved Buckler Defense"
Improved Buckler Defense
You can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.I plan on playing a fighter specialized in two-handed weapons for an upcoming campaign. As a GM, would you allow this feat to be applied to attacking with a two-handed weapon?
I would rule that Improved Buckler Defense does not allow you to retain the bonus when using a two handed weapon.
With an offhand weapon, you could feasibly (with the feat) get the shield back into position after an attack or attack in such a way as to keep the shield in a defensive position.
With a two handed weapon, the shield arm in my opinion can't be maneuvered sufficiently while attacking to retain its defensive bonus.
Also, if the feat meant for two handers to retain the bonus it would have said so.
I guess I'd consider a Greater Buckler Defense that had IBD and maybe something like DEX 15 as prerequisites and allowed you to keep the bonus with a buckler, and more power to you if it was worth it to you to go for it.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so because of the extra weight on your arm. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the rest of the round.
(emphasis mine)
The way Improved Buckler Defense is worded, it seems to limited to off-hand weapons, not two-handed weapons. However, you may want to look at the Spinning Halberd style feat (Complete Warrior) for a way to add a bit of defense to two-handed combat.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so because of the extra weight on your arm. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the rest of the round.The way Improved Buckler Defense is worded, it seems to limited to off-hand weapons, not two-handed weapons. However, you may want to look at the Spinning Halberd style feat (Complete Warrior) for a way to add a bit of defense to two-handed combat.
Improved Buckler Defense
You can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
(emphasis mine)
I believe you bolded the wrong section, the part you bolded had to do with the -1 penalty. The part I have bolded instead refers to the loss of the buckler's AC bonus. You will notice both the loss of the AC statement and the Improved Buckler Defense both refer to "a weapon in your off hand". So either by a strict reading, you lose the AC bonus for two-handed weapons and can also use IBD, or you don't lose the AC bonus and therefore don't need IBD.
|
Can I ask something? What would be so bad about having the buckler bonus while having a two handed weapon over having two weapons? Sure, the fighter saves money on magical enhancements, and doesn't suffer the -2 penalty to attack (which can be avoided anyways with a few levels of Tempest), but pretty much dishes out the same damage, more or less. I would rule that in the spirit of the feat, I would allow it to extend to two-handed weapons. Fighters have enough things holding them back as it is anyways, and this is in no way gamebreaking. Other than getting (at max) a +6 shield bonus to AC, along with any other keyword abilities added on to it. Also, figuring that he would have to have the money to sink into this; not to mention that it would really suck if he had to enchant two weapons and a shield to make the optimum use of this feat if it only applied to TWF.
Just my 2cp
I believe you bolded the wrong section, the part you bolded had to do with the -1 penalty. The part I have bolded instead refers to the loss of the buckler's AC bonus. You will notice both the loss of the AC statement and the Improved Buckler Defense both refer to "a weapon in your off hand". So either by a strict reading, you lose the AC bonus for two-handed weapons and can also use IBD, or you don't lose the AC bonus and therefore don't need IBD.
The bolded portion in my post was an answer to the OP:
When you're wearing a Buckler and attack with an off-hand weapon, the rules state you lose the Buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round and the off-hand attack suffers a -1 penalty because of the extra weight on you arm. What about two-handed weapons? Can you use say, a greatsword, while wearing a Buckler and still keep the AC bonus?
As far as Improved Buckler Defense goes, the key portion is bolded:
Improved Buckler Defense
You can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
However, Spinning Halberd (Complete Warrior, pg. 114) may be worth a look:
Spinning Halberd
You have mastered the style of fighting with a halberd, and can use all parts of the weapon-blade, spike, hook, or butt -to strike devastating blows.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (halberd)
Benefit: When you make a full attack with your halberd, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class as well as an additional attack with the weapon at a -5 penalty. This attack deals points of bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 your Strength modifier.
With Power Attack, the wielder can still dish out tons of damage with the halberd as a two-handed weapon. He just gains a +1 to AC and a secondary attack with the butt of the weapon when making a full attack.
EDIT: Interesting. Typing "butt-" triggers the censor, but typing "butt" doesn't.
Wording aside, imo, to defend yourself with a small disc strapped to your forearm, you'd have to let go of your weapn with that hand (in case of a twohanded weapon). You could then rule that said weapon is no longer ready and you cannot make a AoO...
Imagine a spear (no reach) instead of a greatsword (which is almost unanimously dislpayed wielded incorrectly anyway, it is not used in over-head swings but rather in a sideways arc or a thrust):
you wield a spear leading with your offhand and you grip it with your hands at least 2ft apart. I find it hard to imagine how you'd rotate your body so as to position your left forarm to meet and deflect an incoming (relatively) fast blade like a rapier (for which bucklers were originally intended) without letting go of your own weapon...
The lack of rules for parrying always worried me a bit and the AC-bonus from shield always seemed to be passiv.
From what I have heard Tempest is considered broken by many...
... but the rules clearly state that you can use the feat while using an offhand weapon, not a 2handed weapon. (Don't get me started on double weapons...)
As for Fighters getting handed the shorter end of the stick: two weapon fighting looks flashy and stylish, but once you come up against a foe with DR you better have your 2-handed weapon ready. Twohanders are never wielded with a shield, the offset for the 1.5 damage multiplier is the inability to utilise a shield.
@Simcha: It is general understood that the way the buckler is described in D&D is ridiculous when considering real world fighting styles. I believe the argument is something like, about 50% of the time, you would be deflecting the attack towards your hand. Thus about 50% of the time you are likely to cut off your hand when using a D&D style buckler. In reality, bucklers were small shields held in the hand, not strapped to the forearm. Now I personally don't really care that much, but if one wants to get concerned with the actual mechanics of fighting with a buckler from a "realistic" standpoint as you appear to be arguing then the D&D buckler probably should be tossed out to begin with.
@Dragonchess Player: Sorry for the confusion, your comments seemed to be not in line with the part you bolded originally, thus why I thought you had emphasised the wrong part. I see now that your comments and the bolded parts were about different things. Still I think you are focusing on fluff text in the feat and not the actual mechanics of the feat. Also the statement, "You can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class." Does not exclude other things that can be attacked with while retaining a buckler's shield bonus by using the feat.
|
|
your argument for the 1.5x damage is null and void, because you get the extra .5 from your other hand in TWF as well. Now, if you wanted to mention the perks of the double bonus from power attack, THEN you might have a point... Except that it's essentially the same way for TWF, if you think about it. -1 to all attacks, +1 to all weapon damage would apply to your off hand, thus equaling the same thing, even if it takes more attacks. But I digress
Mechanically (well, balance-wise), I would see nothing wrong with the feat being applied to two-handers as well. Although, I also have a very strong distaste for arguing over how a rule is written, because I have players that love to try to argue that "well, if we read it THIS way, it can be interpreted as..." But again, I digress.
Also, there's the feat Two Weapon Defense, which gives you +1 dodge bonus to AC when wielding two weapons
your argument for the 1.5x damage is null and void, because you get the extra .5 from your other hand in TWF as well. Now, if you wanted to mention the perks of the double bonus from power attack, THEN you might have a point... Except that it's essentially the same way for TWF, if you think about it. -1 to all attacks, +1 to all weapon damage would apply to your off hand, thus equaling the same thing, even if it takes more attacks. But I digress
Just to point out if you are using a light weapon in your off-hand (which is normally the case), you won't get the power attack benefit with it (you can't get power attack with [almost all] light weapons).
Right! I forgot that it is as easy passing DR with an offhand weapon as with a two-handed weapon, especially because of the -2 to attack and the halved Strength bonus! My argument is made all the more void because you have two attack rolls since you fight with two weapons.
Sorry for the confusion... :P
|
|
I plan on playing a fighter specialized in two-handed weapons for an upcoming campaign. As a GM, would you allow this feat to be applied to attacking with a two-handed weapon?
Nope, seems designed for a two weapon wielder... which is odd since there are a number of feats by WOTC that give you an AC bonus when wielding two weapons.
Right! I forgot that it is as easy passing DR with an offhand weapon as with a two-handed weapon, especially because of the -2 to attack and the halved Strength bonus! My argument is made all the more void because you have two attack rolls since you fight with two weapons.
Sorry for the confusion... :P
True the DR will be an issue with TWF (assuming you don't have the tools to bypass it). But in cases without DR, you're trading accuracy for more rolls to hit. While your individual chance of hitting decreases (unless you only hit on a 20 anyway), your chance of missing altogether also decreases. TWF usually shines with things like sneak attack involved.
Let me ask this, if you say the feat IBD does not apply for two-handed folks, then what about double weapons? Does it apply when they are using both ends but not when they are only using one end? What if they just attack with one end, but act like they are using both ends (no 1.5 str bonus, no x2 power attack) would they get the bonus in that case?
|
|
Right! I forgot that it is as easy passing DR with an offhand weapon as with a two-handed weapon, especially because of the -2 to attack and the halved Strength bonus! My argument is made all the more void because you have two attack rolls since you fight with two weapons.
Sorry for the confusion... :P
hey, no need to get snarky, I didn't say anything about the DR. I was directly addressing the strength bonus modifier, of which I am still correct about, seeing as 1 from the first arm and .5 from the second arm equals *gasp* 1.5!
Pres Man, on the other hand, you do have me there. I guess that's what Oversized TWF is for, then, above just getting a bigger die to roll.
As a GM, would you allow this feat to be applied to attacking with a two-handed weapon?
Nope.
Once you reach a high enough level, forget about having a buckler at all. Animated Shields are your friend. :-D
Also, if the feat meant for two handers to retain the bonus it would have said so.
To be very nit-picky, there is a "weapon in your off-hand" when you are weilding a two-handed weapon.
I see no reason why you would not be able to use IBD to retain your buckler armor bonus to AC while using a two-handed weapon.
This thread has been very informative. I never knew there was this penalty to using a buckler with TWF. I always treated a MW buckler as a free +1 shield bonus on all my characters.
Also, if the feat meant for two handers to retain the bonus it would have said so.To be very nit-picky, there is a "weapon in your off-hand" when you are weilding a two-handed weapon.
I see no reason why you would not be able to use IBD to retain your buckler armor bonus to AC while using a two-handed weapon.
This thread has been very informative. I never knew there was this penalty to using a buckler with TWF. I always treated a MW buckler as a free +1 shield bonus on all my characters.
Aside from the not understanding how bucklers work until just now, I agree. Although IMC I would double-check all the relevant rules in the actual books before ruling on this. Without having done so, the 'nit-picky' point does ring true IMO.
Kang