Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die: d8.
Base Attack Bonus: The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.
Class Skills: Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
Saving Throws: The battle sorcerer has the same saving throws as a cleric, having good fort and will saves.
Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with all light weapons, and martial weapons. She also gains proficiency with light and medium armor and all shields, except tower.
Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor, and while using a light shield, without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).
A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
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To pull it back a little closer to the UA version, I would recommend dropping Bluff as a class skill, dropping medium armor proficiency, and tweaking the weapon proficiencies to 'all simple weapons, all light martial weapons and a single one-handed martial weapon of choice.'
[Alternately, for simplicity, have the Battle Sorcerer use the weapon and armor proficiencies, and ability to cast spells in light armor or while using a shield, of a Bard.]
The class would still be better than the UA version (more weapon profs, shield prof, strong fort save), but not quite as advanced as what you've done here.
At first the strong Fort save quirked an eyebrow, but then I noticed that the Battle Sorcerer's transition to d8 HD from d4 HD was a bigger step up than the Pathfinder increase from a d6 HD. In light of that, a stronger Fort save seems like an appropriate compensatory increase.
To pull it back a little closer to the UA version, I would recommend dropping Bluff as a class skill, dropping medium armor proficiency, and tweaking the weapon proficiencies to 'all simple weapons, all light martial weapons and a single one-handed martial weapon of choice.'
[Alternately, for simplicity, have the Battle Sorcerer use the weapon and armor proficiencies, and ability to cast spells in light armor or while using a shield, of a Bard.]
The class would still be better than the UA version (more weapon profs, shield prof, strong fort save), but not quite as advanced as what you've done here.
At first the strong Fort save quirked an eyebrow, but then I noticed that the Battle Sorcerer's transition to d8 HD from d4 HD was a bigger step up than the Pathfinder increase from a d6 HD. In light of that, a stronger Fort save seems like an appropriate compensatory increase.
Glad you like some things. However last I checked bluff rolled into diplomacy and, unless I am mistaken, sorcerers don't get that. The medium armor proficiency is there since they would obviously train for mithral.
P.S. OH yeah you are right, they didn't roll it into diplomacy, why didn't they do that? Yes I would have made it drop the bluff if I realized that was still a skill.
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The medium armor proficiency is there since they would obviously train for mithral.
That seems fairly particular for a class feature, gaining access to an entire grade of armor for the purpose of using a version made from an exotic material.
Since a breastplate is unique among medium armors in not restricting movement as much as the others (since it doesn't cover the arms), perhaps the Battle Sorcerer just gains proficiency in Light armors and the Breastplate, and can cast spells unpenalized in all of those?
That gives him access to one type of Medium Armor, that makes the most 'sense' from a thematic standpoint (being the least binding / restrictive) and doesn't necessarily require the Breastplate to be made of a special material.
The medium armor proficiency is there since they would obviously train for mithral.That seems fairly particular for a class feature, gaining access to an entire grade of armor for the purpose of using a version made from an exotic material.
Since a breastplate is unique among medium armors in not restricting movement as much as the others (since it doesn't cover the arms), perhaps the Battle Sorcerer just gains proficiency in Light armors and the Breastplate, and can cast spells unpenalized in all of those?
That gives him access to one type of Medium Armor, that makes the most 'sense' from a thematic standpoint (being the least binding / restrictive) and doesn't necessarily require the Breastplate to be made of a special material.
Hmm well I think mine is just simpler as breastplate is the best medium armor out there. There is also the possibility of arcane armor training now as well. Perhaps add an alternative % reduction if they are using something heavier, as tat does make sense.
P.S. Plus there has been a number of situations where I was taught things and tested on things in my jobs and classes that I wouldn't normally would use every day, but for those rare situations.
P.P.S. Yeah casting in armor like the new bard sounds fine. Did you notice that they can now cast while using a tower shield, even though they are not proficient in it's use.
*2nd Draft*
Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die: d8.
Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throws: The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus and saving throw progression of the cleric.
Class Skills: Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with all light and martial weapons. She also gains proficiency with light and medium armor and all shields, except tower. A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells while wearing light armor and while using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Unlike any other arcane spellcasters, a battle sorcerer wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a 15% less chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass battle sorcerer still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).
A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
Personally, I'd just apply the UA changes straight to the PFRPG sorcerer. I'm not sure why they would need some extra stuff on top of that just to make them "PFRPG-compliant".
Well the reasons for this.
1. It is a Hit Die from D4 to D8 originally, now just a D6 to D8 jump, leaving room for some more improvement to balance it out.
2. Every other class that involves in combat and casting has good fort or reflx and will saves. Even a paladin has full base attack, D10 hit die, and two good saves.
3. Originally the variant was designed with Mithral Medium armor in mind, that needed to be converted.
4. Being able to ignore light armor, and not getting some % reduction to other armor makes no sense.
5. Originally the variant had better armor casting abilities than the bard, now it is about the same.
I think that the Sorcerer should trade bloodline abilities for the Armor, Weapon, BaB, Hp and Saves. otherwise, just use the straight UA Battle Sorcerer (possibly dropping a few spells per day later levels to stay with Pathfinder casters).
That would be a different variant entirely.
The class can also cast 9th level spells meaning that at high levels it will surpass most other gish, and yes I know the word is becoming unpopular around here lately. I know everyone does not use splat books, but most of us still do. A battle sorcerer that applied the UA changes to the sorcerer was still a force to behold in my Age of Worms campaign. Sadly the player had to move, but the class does not need a lot of help. Now if you are assuming only the Pathfinder core book is going to be used it might be worth it make a list of spells a battle sorcerer might take to see if they keep him viable.
How are the battle sorcerer's casting ability's only slightly above a bard's?
The class can also cast 9th level spells meaning that at high levels it will surpass most other gish, and yes I know the word is becoming unpopular around here lately. I know everyone does not use splat books, but most of us still do. A battle sorcerer that applied the UA changes to the sorcerer was still a force to behold in my Age of Worms campaign. Sadly the player had to move, but the class does not need a lot of help. Now if you are assuming only the Pathfinder core book is going to be used it might be worth it make a list of spells a battle sorcerer might take to see if they keep him viable.
How are the battle sorcerer's casting ability's only slightly above a bard's?
Armor casting between the two in 3.5.
Bard was light only, while Battle Sorcerer had Light armor and shields. With this update they are, mostly, the same.
a cleric and druid also gets access to 9th level spell and full armor casting. So this will need testing, but I think the sever lose in spell access is being under-rated, as they won't get any class given 9th level spells know till level 19, compaired to a wizard, cleric, or druid at level 17. This even further splits their stat requirements with the light armor casting requiring the character to have good Str, Dex, Con, and Cha, and at high levels. While even the paladin can just live with Str, Con, and Cha.
P.S. That means despite needing a decent Dex and Con, plus 2 feats (such as arcane strike and weapon finesse), he would need a Cha of 28 to get access to 9th level spells, other than their single blood line spell, before level 20.
I'm pretty much with Hogarth on this, the changes to sorcerer have tons of synergy with the UA battle sorcerer. They can get natural armor to boost AC, some of the bloodlines give strength boosts, lots of melee friendly bonus feats, and just overall the class change are almost made to fit with the battle sorcerer. Giving a bunch of extras on top isn't needed.
I'm pretty much with Hogarth on this, the changes to sorcerer have tons of synergy with the UA battle sorcerer. They can get natural armor to boost AC, some of the bloodlines give strength boosts, lots of melee friendly bonus feats, and just overall the class change are almost made to fit with the battle sorcerer. Giving a bunch of extras on top isn't needed.
Okay, good argument.
The class can also cast 9th level spells meaning that at high levels it will surpass most other gish, and yes I know the word is becoming unpopular around here lately. I know everyone does not use splat books, but most of us still do. A battle sorcerer that applied the UA changes to the sorcerer was still a force to behold in my Age of Worms campaign. Sadly the player had to move, but the class does not need a lot of help. Now if you are assuming only the Pathfinder core book is going to be used it might be worth it make a list of spells a battle sorcerer might take to see if they keep him viable.
How are the battle sorcerer's casting ability's only slightly above a bard's?
Armor casting between the two in 3.5.
Bard was light only, while Battle Sorcerer had Light armor and shields. With this update they are, mostly, the same.
a cleric and druid also gets access to 9th level spell and full armor casting. So this will need testing, but I think the sever lose in spell access is being under-rated, as they won't get any class given 9th level spells know till level 19, compaired to a wizard, cleric, or druid at level 17. This even further splits their stat requirements with the light armor casting requiring the character to have good Str, Dex, Con, and Cha, and at high levels. While even the paladin can just live with Str, Con, and Cha.
P.S. That means despite needing a decent Dex and Con, plus 2 feats (such as arcane strike and weapon finesse), he would need a Cha of 28 to get access to 9th level spells, other than their single blood line spell, before level 20.
STR 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 15
Under the point-buy rules this is a 22 point buy. Now I will admit I allow for a higher point-buy in my campaign, but this stat issue would be common to all gishes*. For a low build campaign the medium armor may have some merit. I will not try to counter that point for now. Sometimes its easy for me to forget everyone does not play like I do.
A BS would get his first 9th level spell at level 18 not 19. The one less spell learned does hurt, but it does not take affect until he would have gained his second spell at that same level. What I mean is whenever he would suppose to have two 9th level spells learned he will only have one.
Why would he need a cha of 28? You need an attribute of 10+spell level to cast a spell which means a 19 would suffice as long as you start with a 15 in your spell casting stat.
Why would he need a cha of 28? You need an attribute of 10+spell level to cast a spell which means a 19 would suffice as long as you start with a 15 in your spell casting stat.
Because the battle sorcerer loses one spell known for each spell level, meaning she'd have zero 9th level spells known at 18th level.
Although, come to think of it, a 28 Charisma (or even higher) would be of no help there, as it does not add to spells known.
Why would he need a cha of 28? You need an attribute of 10+spell level to cast a spell which means a 19 would suffice as long as you start with a 15 in your spell casting stat.Because the battle sorcerer loses one spell known for each spell level, meaning she'd have zero 9th level spells known at 18th level.
Although, come to think of it, a 28 Charisma (or even higher) would be of no help there, as it does not add to spells known.
You always get the first spell. You only lose the second one.
From the SRD:For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell/
If the battle sorcerer did not get the first spell learned at the same time the sorcerer then you would not get a 2nd level spell at 4th level.
Charisma does not affect spell known for sorcerers, as you stated in your post, only the number of spells that can be cast per day.
a cleric and druid also gets access to 9th level spell and full armor casting. So this will need testing, but I think the sever lose in spell access is being under-rated, as they won't get any class given 9th level spells know till level 19, compaired to a wizard, cleric, or druid at level 17. This even further splits their stat requirements with the light armor casting requiring the character to have good Str, Dex, Con, and Cha, and at high levels. While even the paladin can just live with Str, Con, and Cha.
P.S. That means despite needing a decent Dex and Con, plus 2 feats (such as arcane strike and weapon finesse), he would need a Cha of 28 to get access to 9th level spells, other than their single blood line spell, before level 20.
I saw this at first and took it at face value but I was looking at it and I don't get it.
A sorcerer gets 1 9th level spell known at 18th level. A battle sorcerer gets:
A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level).
(Also, spells known are not affected by CHA in any case.)
So battle sorcerers get one 9th level spell regardless. Similarly their spells per day are reduced by one per day but they get two 9th level spells at 18th level so they still get to cast 9th level spells.
So where does the 28 CHA come in to cast 9th level spells?
Oops, ninjaed above.
My mistake on the spells known.
For what it's worth I put up a straight conversion of the battle sorcerer on the d20PfSRD site. It has the spell table along with the basic class info.
I left bluff in there since sorcerer already gets intimidate under Pathfinder.
Sir Hex - The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to agree with you on giving them a good fort save. My linked conversion doesn't change that but I think it would be ok.
For what it's worth I put up a straight conversion of the battle sorcerer on the d20PfSRD site. It has the spell table along with the basic class info.
I left bluff in there since sorcerer already gets intimidate under Pathfinder.
Sir Hex - The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to agree with you on giving them a good fort save. My linked conversion doesn't change that but I think it would be ok.
A fort save would not be a bad idea. That one less spell learned really hurts.
Sir Hex - The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to agree with you on giving them a good fort save. My linked conversion doesn't change that but I think it would be ok.A fort save would not be a bad idea. That one less spell learned really hurts.
Well I just did a straight conversion and I'm gonna leave it that way. One suggestion would be to take 4 levels of dragon disciple after sixth level. You lose a caster level but for a combat oriented sorcerer it's a pretty solid option.
Why would he need a cha of 28? You need an attribute of 10+spell level to cast a spell which means a 19 would suffice as long as you start with a 15 in your spell casting stat.Because the battle sorcerer loses one spell known for each spell level, meaning she'd have zero 9th level spells known at 18th level.
Although, come to think of it, a 28 Charisma (or even higher) would be of no help there, as it does not add to spells known.
You always get the first spell. You only lose the second one.
From the SRD:For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell/
If the battle sorcerer did not get the first spell learned at the same time the sorcerer then you would not get a 2nd level spell at 4th level.
Charisma does not affect spell known for sorcerers, as you stated in your post, only the number of spells that can be cast per day.
Ah, I see my mistake. I took a quick glance and saw that it gave the minimum of zero for spells per day, but mistook it for spells known.
A fort save would not be a bad idea. That one less spell learned really hurts.For what it's worth I put up a straight conversion of the battle sorcerer on the d20PfSRD site. It has the spell table along with the basic class info.
I left bluff in there since sorcerer already gets intimidate under Pathfinder.
Sir Hex - The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to agree with you on giving them a good fort save. My linked conversion doesn't change that but I think it would be ok.
I had all but conseeded that straight port was fine, but started thinking that too about the fort saves.
Our primary tank is a Feral Kobold Battle Sorcerer (Dragon bloodline). He likes to combine Wraithstrike (SC, swift action to make all melee attacks touch attacks for 1 round) with a charge and pounce (from Feral template). It's pretty devastating: claw/claw/bite/tail. AND he just got a permanent Enlarge Person on himself.
I had all but conseeded that straight port was fine, but started thinking that too about the fort saves.
Well I think that's a different issue. To me "conversion" means taking something and adapting it to the current rules. The battle sorcerer just slides right over so other than bluff there are not issues.
Adding in a good fort save is changing the design not to bring it over to Pathfinder but because you feel it's underpowered. While I tend to agree with you on the fort save I don't see that as a conversion thing so much as house ruling a class.
Our primary tank is a Feral Kobold Battle Sorcerer (Dragon bloodline). He likes to combine Wraithstrike (SC, swift action to make all melee attacks touch attacks for 1 round) with a charge and pounce (from Feral template). It's pretty devastating: claw/claw/bite/tail. AND he just got a permanent Enlarge Person on himself.
Okay, I am hijacking my own thread here. You NEED to know how the feral template works.
Players, unless they get racial hit dice, do not get much from it.
You do not get anything that requires hit dice. I once made a racial class basing this off of the monstrous humanoid template, so as you got hit dice you gained the template. The end-result, was a class to par with a barbarian, maybe even more so.
Notice also that as the CR increase, increases as the base creature gets hit dice, so the LA should have effectively gone us as well.
So unless you are requiring the sorcerer to get racial hit dice of some sort, you probably are over powering your character.
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Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die
d8.
Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.
Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.
Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).
A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die
d8.
Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.
Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.
Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).
A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
Funny... not
Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die
d8.
Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throws
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus and saving throw progression of the cleric.
Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with all light weapons, and any one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.
Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).
A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
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I think that is about right.
A martial class that does not have a good fort or reflex save, or knows all light melee weapons is ridiculous. If a Paladin can have two good saves, then I think this should as well.
Well I think that's a different issue. To me "conversion" means taking something and adapting it to the current rules. The battle sorcerer just slides right over so other than bluff there are not issues.Adding in a good fort save is changing the design not to bring it over to Pathfinder but because you feel it's underpowered. While I tend to agree with you on the fort save I don't see that as a conversion thing so much as house ruling a class.
+1. It would be more accurate to call the thread "Battle Sorcerer Improvements"; there's nothing particularly Pathfinder-esque about the improvements suggested (some of which are quite reasonable, IMO).
Our primary tank is a Feral Kobold Battle Sorcerer (Dragon bloodline). He likes to combine Wraithstrike (SC, swift action to make all melee attacks touch attacks for 1 round) with a charge and pounce (from Feral template). It's pretty devastating: claw/claw/bite/tail. AND he just got a permanent Enlarge Person on himself.Okay, I am hijacking my own thread here. You NEED to know how the feral template works.
Players, unless they get racial hit dice, do not get much from it.
You do not get anything that requires hit dice. I once made a racial class basing this off of the monstrous humanoid template, so as you got hit dice you gained the template. The end-result, was a class to par with a barbarian, maybe even more so.
Notice also that as the CR increase, increases as the base creature gets hit dice, so the LA should have effectively gone us as well.
So unless you are requiring the sorcerer to get racial hit dice of some sort, you probably are over powering your character.
I'm just a player in that game, so I don't know all the workings of the Feral Template. It's a campaign where we're all playing +1 ECL races or have +1 ECL templates. I play a chaos gnome (+1 ECL race) and a whisper gnome with the dark creature template (+1 ECL template from Tome of Magic).
The kobold might be a "-1" ECL race, so the Feral Template should be pretty beefy for a +1 or maybe even a +2 to compensate. I know the player is a bit of a power gamer, but he also roleplays well and doesn't try to dominate the table top.
What IS the Feral Template, anyways? I figure it's just a tough fiesty version of a critter.
Our primary tank is a Feral Kobold Battle Sorcerer (Dragon bloodline). He likes to combine Wraithstrike (SC, swift action to make all melee attacks touch attacks for 1 round) with a charge and pounce (from Feral template). It's pretty devastating: claw/claw/bite/tail. AND he just got a permanent Enlarge Person on himself.Okay, I am hijacking my own thread here. You NEED to know how the feral template works.
Players, unless they get racial hit dice, do not get much from it.
You do not get anything that requires hit dice. I once made a racial class basing this off of the monstrous humanoid template, so as you got hit dice you gained the template. The end-result, was a class to par with a barbarian, maybe even more so.
Notice also that as the CR increase, increases as the base creature gets hit dice, so the LA should have effectively gone us as well.
So unless you are requiring the sorcerer to get racial hit dice of some sort, you probably are over powering your character.
I'm just a player in that game, so I don't know all the workings of the Feral Template. It's a campaign where we're all playing +1 ECL races or have +1 ECL templates. I play a chaos gnome (+1 ECL race) and a whisper gnome with the dark creature template (+1 ECL template from Tome of Magic).
The kobold might be a "-1" ECL race, so the Feral Template should be pretty beefy for a +1 or maybe even a +2 to compensate. I know the player is a bit of a power gamer, but he also roleplays well and doesn't try to dominate the table top.
What IS the Feral Template, anyways? I figure it's just a tough fiesty version of a critter.
You are correct, but all the abilities the template grants were based on racial hit dice. The book it came from was notorious for not making it clear if it was racial, character, or class hit dice that determined the powers they got. Each of the powers it got, rake, pounce etc. are worth 1 LA each, and the fact that you got racial hit dice to get them made them more like class abilities if you took racial hit dice instead of class levels.