-First I know the Hexblade has been kicked around in several conversion threads. That being said, Complete warrior was printed before complete arcane and thus the warlock and his invocations had not yet come out.
So I've been kicking this idea around.
-Remove the Hexblade's arcane spell progression
-Replace with Invocation Progression only (they do not get an eldritch blast, blast shape, or essence invocations).
-thinking about a progression that begins at 4th level and progresses up to 20th, allowing them to gain about 7-9 invocations.
-They would only get least and lesser invocations (no access to greater or dark).
Positives: Invocations can normally be used an unlimited number of times per day (unless otherwise noted in the description).
Negatives: Invocations do not provide as much flexibility as arcane spells.
Just looking for opinions about this idea.
Thoughts, comments, or suggestions, welcome.
AK
**punt** looking to see if I can get any thoughts on this idea
Sounds like a great idea.
What would the progression be?
1.
2.
3.
4. 1 Least
5.
6. 2
7.
8. 3
9.
10. 4
11.
12. 5 Lesser
13.
14. 6
15.
16. 7
17.
18. 8
19.
20. 9 Greater (capstone!)
I actually really like the idea of giving them invocations rather than spells- fits the flavor more, I think. I wouldn't limit them only to Least and Lesser- perhaps give them 1-2 greater and even a single dark as a capstone. I wouldn't give them full access to the warlock invocations though- just a set list derived from both the warlock and the dragonfire adept. You may have to change the fluff around a bit, but it would work out well.
Personally, I wouldn't give them more than 6-7 invocations. They only had a few spell levels originally, so this seems appropriate. Also, keep in mind that they'll gain a large benefit from the feat Arcane Strike since they're now full spellcasters. I don't see it as an issue in the slightest (they need the boost), but it's something to consider.
@SmiloDan
:
-Actually I really like what you did with your "re-vision" of the Hexblade and the whole Hex-Points system. I was thinking about fusing the invocation progression with your revision of the class. I can post up a "mock" 20 level example if that's all right with you of course.thoughts?
Sean FitzSimon
-Well the reason I suggested keeping it between least and lesser is that they only got up to 4th level spells to begin with. From observations "most" least invocations mimic spells between lvls 1-2 and "most" lesser invocations mimic spells between levels 3-4. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but the general majority follow this pattern.
-I think giving them access to greater invocations shouldn't generate too much of a problem, may something akin to SmiloDan's progression above. I want to let the Warlock keep his big bad "Dark" invocations for himself.thoughts?
Thanks for the replies. This is still a work in progress.
AK
Oh, I agree entirely. I figure if you're limiting their access to the invocations though (not just ALL of them) it wouldn't be as damaging to offer higher (greater) abilities since you could immediately weed out the borked ones.
Plus, you might even consider creating a few new invocations yourself. I really liked the idea of a greater invocation being a capstone.
Oh, I agree entirely. I figure if you're limiting their access to the invocations though (not just ALL of them) it wouldn't be as damaging to offer higher (greater) abilities since you could immediately weed out the borked ones.
Plus, you might even consider creating a few new invocations yourself. I really liked the idea of a greater invocation being a capstone.
Well, one thing is for sure, they are not getting an Eldritch Blast so that pulls out all the blast essence and shape invocations.
That being said I was just going to open up the remaining Least, Lesser and Greater Invocations to them. They're universally applicable, don't require the Eldritch blast, and most can be used an unlimited number of times per day, unless otherwise noted in said description.
To me these would represent little tricks, tactics, ect that the hexblade can "invoke" (lol), to give himself a quick boost or edge in combat.
The goal here, for me at least, is to re-envision the hexblade as the warlocks more "martial" cousin. He's less focused on blasting stuff to bits since he has the martial training, but pulls on his invocations to provide him with alternate options in combat, much like the duskblade does with spells.
(also, side note): I'm trying to push the hexblade down this route since the duskblade more or less wipes the floor with them, both in terms of spell casting and combat. The joke amongst my group during 3.5 was that the duskblade was the hexblade, fighter/mage/spell sword, bladesinger, whatever, version 2.0 and "Turbo-ed" as it essentially shelved all these previous classes and PRCs.
So a big part of these rebuild was to breath new life into the class while making it different enough from the Duskblade to provide players with an interesting alternative, that would still be worth playing.
PS
Plus, you might even consider creating a few new invocations yourself. I really liked the idea of a greater invocation being a capstone.
-I have had experience with creating my own custom Invocations. If you want to see some of the stuff I created, check out the rebuilt Enlightened Spirit thread. Its lurking around here somewhere. I came up with a new list of Enlightened Invocations, and a Radiant grade to replace their dark invocations. Somehow going 10 warlock, 10 enlightened spirit and still getting dark invocations just didn't seem well thought out to me ;)
Here's the link:
Enlighted Spirit Rebuild
Here is what I kinda came up with so far:
note: Part of this class is based off SmiloDan's Hexblade found in the Pathfinder Truenamer thread. Credit should go to him for that part of this rebuild.
Hexblade
BAB: Good
Fort: Poor
Reflex: Poor
Will Power: Good
Level/Special
1.) Hexblade's Curse (-2), Hex Pool
2.) Eldritch Resistance, Hex Power
3.) Mettle
4.) Bonus Feat, invocation (least)
5.) Dark Companion or Eldritch Blade
6.) Hex Power
7.) Improved Hexblade's Curse (-4)
8.) Bonus Feat
9.) Aura of Unluck (25%)
10.) Hex Power
11.) Baleful Luck, invocation (least, lesser)
12.) Bonus Feat
13.) Greater Hexblade's Curse (-6)
14.) Hex Power
15.) Quick Curse
16.) Bonus Feat
17.) Greater Aura of Unluck (50%)
18.) Hex Power invocation (least, lesser, greater)
19.) Dire Hexblade's Curse (-8)
20.) Bonus Feat, Reversal of Fortune
Invocation Progression:
level/invocations known
4. 1 Least
5. 2
6. 2
7. 2
8. 3
9. 3
10. 3
11. 4 Lesser
12. 5
13. 5
14. 5
15. 6
16. 6
17. 6
18. 7 Greater
19. 8
20. 8
Few things I changed:
-I only gave them the "Hex Power" ability at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th level.
-I bumped up there Aura of unluck to 25% when its first gained
-I changed Arcane resistance to Eldritch resistance and I am thinking about making it a Charisma based bonus once again that only applies to spells and spell like effects.
-I pulled out the familiar and gave them a choice between a dark companion or the "paladin" like weapon that SmiloDan wrote up originally.
Mind you this is just a rough draft.
thoughts?
AK
Invocation Progression:
level/invocations known
4. 1 Least
5. 2
6. 2
7. 2
8. 3
9. 3
10. 3
11. 4 Lesser
12. 5
13. 5
14. 5
15. 6
16. 6
17. 6
18. 7 Greater
19. 8
20. 8
I'd slow your progression of invocations down a little bit. Give them their 2nd invocation at 6 instead of 5, their 5th at 13 instead of 12, and their 8th at 20 instead of 19. It gives it a more even progression, and makes level 20 even more worth taking.
I'd slow your progression of invocations down a little bit. Give them their 2nd invocation at 6 instead of 5, their 5th at 13 instead of 12, and their 8th at 20 instead of 19. It gives it a more even progression, and makes level 20 even more worth taking.
I like your progression better than what I came up with ;)
I'd slow your progression of invocations down a little bit. Give them their 2nd invocation at 6 instead of 5, their 5th at 13 instead of 12, and their 8th at 20 instead of 19. It gives it a more even progression, and makes level 20 even more worth taking.I like your progression better than what I came up with ;)
lol, I'm a powergamer at heart (which fights often with my love of RP), so when I look at a class I'm always looking to optimize it. If I don't have a reason to take 20 levels in it, there's no way I will.