PHB:II Updating the Duskblade and the Knight
The Duskblade and the Knight, probably two of the best constructed, splatbook base classes printed for 3.5. Personally I am of the opinion that these classes are pretty much good to go as is, with very little need of modification. So this here is just my update for these classes. Feel free to comment.
_______________________________________________________________________
The Knight:
HD, BAB, Saves, Skill points, class features (same as printed in PHBII)
Skills Update: Climb, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Ride, and Swim.
17th level: Greater Shield Ally (Ex): Same as ability Improved Shield Ally gained at 14th level, except now you can absorb all the damage dealt to them. You still have the option of only accepting partial damage.
________________________________________________________________________
That was really it for the Knight. He had 1 dead level in 3.5 and a slew of abilities. Loyal Beyond Death is a capstone as far as I'm concerned.Now the Duskblade did need some restructuring. Don't know if anyone else noticed this, but Spell Power seems to follow a logical set progression, which is disrupted at level 18 when I think the designers went "Oh crap, we need to get this +5 bonus in there and we're going to run out of levels, quick throw the dart and whatever level it hits on the board that's where we'll add it."
Now don't get me wrong, the Duskblade is one of the best base classes printed in 3.5. You have your cake, and get to eat it too. That being said, I'd have some pissed off players, if I just said one night, sorry PFRPG now, just make a 5 fighter, 5 sorcerer, and 10 Eldritch Knight for conversion. And as much as I agree that the duskblade almost completely invalidates doing a fighter/spellcaster multiclass combo, the class stands on its own, synthesizes two elements very well, and in my opinion, produces a better whole than multiclass route. So my feelings with regards to this thing have always been torn.
So here is what I did with the Duskblade:
-I Reworked the level progression for Spell Power so that it now follows a logical level progression, and doesn't just dump to +5 at 18th level.
-Reworked the Quick Cast # of times per day.
-Making these changes allowed for me to insert a "Capstone Ability" at 20th level.
Hit Die: Update to D10 (for once I don't agree with this)
BAB: Same (good)
Saves: Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will Power
Class features: same except as notated below
Spell progression: Same/0-level spells converted to cantrips.
(note that cantrips are separate from Arcane Attunement ability)Level/Special
5.) Quick Cast 1/per day
6.) Spell Power +1
7.) Armored Mage (Heavy Shield)
8.) Quick Cast 2/per day
9.) Spell Power +2
10.) ---Dead---
11.) Quick Cast 3/per day
12.) Spell Power +3
13.) Arcane Channeling (full attack)
14.) Quick Cast 4/per day
15.) Spell Power +4
16.) ---Dead---
17.) Quick Cast 5/perday
18.) Spell Power +5
19.) ---Dead---
20.) Blade of Spell & Sword
**(Note: Level Chart is only from level 5-20 where features where changed)
Blade of Spell & Sword (Su): By 20th level the Duskblade has mastered the art of combining sword play and spell casting, marrying the two into a unified deadly whole. Whenever the Duskblade uses their quick cast ability to cast a touch spell as a swift action they may apply the affects of the arcane channeling (full attack) ability to it as well. In addition to the touch spell effecting every melee target struck in that round, the spell does not discharge at the end of the round. Instead it remains locked in the blade for a number of rounds equal to its spell level, and adds and additional bonus to hit and damage for that many rounds. Once a number of rounds equal to the spells level have elapsed the spell then discharges normally.
For example a 20th level Duskblade uses his quick cast on the spell: Polar Ray. The spell remains in the blade, and effects any targets struck in melee, for the next 5 rounds. It also adds an additional +5 to hit, and +5 to damage from being a 5th level spell. Once the 5 rounds have elapsed the spell discharges normally.
Is it powerful, yes. Deadly, yes. Worthy of a Capstone, yes. Here's the catch, you can only perform this trick as many times as you have Quick Cast/per day left. That being said, I intentionally ended the progression at 17th level, and did not give them an additional use with the Capstone ability.
So feed back, questions, concerns, ect. All welcome as usual. I'm trying to convert these classes with minimal modification as they were quite powerful to begin with.
thanks
-AK
Like the concept of the Duskblade spell capstone. However it has been said that the phrase "touch spell" does not include ranged touch spells.
This would make for a good new ability though for the level 16 dead levels.
For one of the dead levels, maybe add Heavy Armor proficiency and Armored Casting (Heavy Armor)? Maybe at 10th?
I would also continue the Quick Casting Progression to level 20, especially if you plan on playing the duskblade into epic levels.
Maybe at 19th level, if the duskblade confirms a critical hit, he automatically overcomes any spell resistance to a spell he is currently channelling?
Maybe the 16th level ability can double the Spell Power bonus on a confirmed critical hit?
Duskblade (along with the Warmage) are two of the non-cores base classes I've enjoyed playing in 3.5. As evidenced by the links I'll provide below, some folks may be sensitive when using the word 'conversion' when it ends up being a 're-envisioning' of the class to be suitable for PF play. Nevertheless, I was looking through some recent threads concerning this and remembered the threads that Shalandar had begun on the topic (before it seemingly fell apart). If it becomes too taboo *cough, cough*, the class could essentially be renamed.
I don't take any of these as my own ideas, so give credit due to those mentioning them in the referenced threads.
It would be nice to re-do the spell list that contains only the Pathfinder core spells on the sorcerer/wizard spell list with a criteria that includes all (melee) touch, personal, ray & line spells. Someone also mentioned to include spells that involve teleportation, movement, and invisibility spells to the list.
Needs to have the eschew materials feat so there's no concern about needing a free hand if he wants to be a true sword & board style duskblade.
Perhaps at certain levels, he could be given the Advanced Learning as did the warmage where a new spell can be picked up from the wizard/sorcerer list(or swap out an existing one?) that's not on their own spell list that is -1 to the highest spell level they can cast.
Going back to compiling the spell list - should the duskblade only know certain spells and increase the number of spells per day per level, or should the duskblade have access to spontaneously cast from all the spells on their list, but a lower amount of spells per day (again, similar to the warmage)?
Another thing that has always bugged me -- since the duskblade is a spontaneous caster, why is intelligence the primary stat? Shouldn't it be Charisma (like the sorcerer and the warmage)?
Anyone have any thoughts?
P.S. Sorry if I threadjacked the OP's thread a little.
One of my players and I (fellow GM) went through and reworked the Duskblade and Knight (and Warmage too, for that matter, as well as a dozen others).
For the Duskblade, all we did was fix the skills and give them a 'Dispelling attack' at higher levels, 14th and 20th. Basically 1/day can perform a dispel magic with an attack, then at 20th, 1/day can perform a greater dispel magic with an attack. Just wanted them to have a capstone. We did add a few spells to their list, and gave them cantrip ability like the wizard/sorcerer (at-will 0's).
For the Knight, we didn't change him at all. He's nice and balanced and powerful. We did leave his hit-die 12, like the barbarian.
For the warmage, we gave him a sorcerer bloodline (but he only gets powers, or spells, or feats, choose one) and added some spells to his list from the Spell Compendium.
For the Duskblade, all we did was fix the skills and give them a 'Dispelling attack' at higher levels, 14th and 20th. Basically 1/day can perform a dispel magic with an attack, then at 20th, 1/day can perform a greater dispel magic with an attack. Just wanted them to have a capstone. We did add a few spells to their list, and gave them cantrip ability like the wizard/sorcerer (at-will 0's).
For the warmage, we gave him a sorcerer bloodline (but he only gets powers, or spells, or feats, choose one) and added some spells to his list from the Spell Compendium.
Including dispel magic on their spell list wouldn't be a bad idea (as for greater dispel magic, that's a 6th level spell, but maybe it can be part of a capstone...).
I'd like to see your 'reskinned' warmage with the sorcerer bloodline on a new thread and see what you did for the spell list when you have time.
For the Duskblade, all we did was fix the skills and give them a 'Dispelling attack' at higher levels, 14th and 20th. Basically 1/day can perform a dispel magic with an attack, then at 20th, 1/day can perform a greater dispel magic with an attack. Just wanted them to have a capstone. We did add a few spells to their list, and gave them cantrip ability like the wizard/sorcerer (at-will 0's).
For the warmage, we gave him a sorcerer bloodline (but he only gets powers, or spells, or feats, choose one) and added some spells to his list from the Spell Compendium.
Including dispel magic on their spell list wouldn't be a bad idea (as for greater dispel magic, that's a 6th level spell, but maybe it can be part of a capstone...).
I'd like to see your 'reskinned' warmage with the sorcerer bloodline on a new thread and see what you did for the spell list when you have time.
Sure, when I get a chance.
PHB:II Updating the Duskblade and the Knight
Blade of Spell & Sword (Su): By 20th level the Duskblade has mastered the art of combining sword play and spell casting, marrying the two into a unified deadly whole. Whenever the Duskblade uses their quick cast ability to cast a touch spell as a swift action they may apply the effects of the arcane channeling (full attack) ability to it as well. In addition to the touch spell affecting every melee target struck in that round, the spell does not discharge at the end of the round. Instead it remains locked in the blade for a number of rounds equal to its spell level, and adds an additional bonus to hit and damage for that many rounds. Once a number of rounds equal to the spells level have elapsed the spell then discharges normally.
I like your updating of the class. Probably because it is so similar to my own. We ended up dropping BAB to average instead of raising the HD. Reasoning: fig 10/wiz 10 (or sorc), or fig 1/wiz 9/e.k. 10 would end with the same +15 attack.
I think I'll steal your quick cast progression and capstone abilities for our game, though I do have a question regarding the last sentence there. By "discharges normally" do you intend that the spell then goes off as if it was cast normally, or that it then ends with no further effect as with other channeled spells? While the former interpretation makes the ability far more powerful/useful, I think it would be a bit much in comparison to the base classes' capstone abilities.
For "Arcane Attunement", we completely rewrote the ability. First, we moved all of the spells over to the cantrip list that he can choose from. Second, we worded it thusly: "A duskblade marries spellcasting and bladework so completely that while wielding a melee weapon he casts spells as if he possessed the eschew materials and somatic weaponry (complete mage, pg 47) feats." This served to clear up how he can cast effectively while wielding a sword and shield without outright granting 2 additional feats.
The wording in PHBII implies that duskblades can only learn 1 spell per level, period. Since we reduced the combat power by dropping his BAB to average, we decided that a duskblade learns one spell automatically each level, but that he may otherwise increase the number of spells that he knows through research. Since he has a highly constricted base spell list to choose from, we thought this was not too powerful.
Okay so here is a sample idea. Let me know if you think this Makes the Duskblade "too powerful". Note that the Armored Mage (Heavy) has been added, albiet at 10th level. I also clarified the "Capstone" ability. Honestly I'm not sure if these added abilities at 10th, 16th and 19th level will over power the class. And since they do have spells a part of me feels as though the three dead levels doesn't hurt as much for them as it would for a noncaster class. That being said I can see the counter point that while they have spell access up to 6th level, their spell list is extremely limited, and thus the dead levels do hurt.
Anyway, tell me what you think.
Hit Die: Update to D10 (for once I don't agree with this)
BAB: Same (good)
Saves: Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will Power
Class features: same except as notated below
Spell progression: Same/0-level spells converted to cantrips.
(note that cantrips are separate from Arcane Attunement ability)Level/Special
5.) Quick Cast 1/per day
6.) Spell Power +1
7.) Armored Mage (Heavy Shield)
8.) Quick Cast 2/per day
9.) Spell Power +2
10.) Armored Mage (Heavy Armor)
11.) Quick Cast 3/per day
12.) Spell Power +3
13.) Arcane Channeling (full attack)
14.) Quick Cast 4/per day
15.) Spell Power +4
16.) Arcane Channeling (Dispelling attack)
17.) Quick Cast 5/perday
18.) Spell Power +5
19.) Arcane Channeling (Critical Threat)
20.) Blade of Spell & Sword, Quick Cast 6/per day
**(Note: Level Chart is only from level 5-20 where features where changed)
Armored Mage (Heavy Armor)(Ex): At 10th level you learn to use heavy armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.
Arcane Channeling (Dispelling Attack)(Sp): At 16th level you can cast the spell Dispel Magic as part of a full attack action and the spell effects each target that you strike in melee combat that round. Your Caster level check for this version of Disple Magic is a D20 + Base Attack Bonus. At the end of the round the spell discharges from your weapon.
Arcane Channeling (Dispelling Attack)(Ex): At 19th level the Duskblade can choose to sacrifice any one spell and increase his weapons critical threat range for the round, by the spell's level. He also adds the spell's level as a bonus to confirm a critical hit. The Duskblade can only use this ability once per round, as a swift action.
Blade of Spell & Sword (Su): By 20th level the Duskblade has mastered the art of combining sword play and spell casting, marrying the two into a unified deadly whole. Whenever the Duskblade uses their quick cast ability to cast a spell, that requires a touch attack or ranged touch attack, as a swift action they may apply the affects of the arcane channeling (full attack) ability to it as well. In addition to the touch spell effecting every melee target struck in that round, the spell does not discharge at the end of the round. Instead it remains locked in the blade for a number of rounds equal to its spell level, and adds and additional bonus to hit and damage for that many rounds. Once a number of rounds equal to the spells level have elapsed the spell then discharges.
For example a 20th level Duskblade uses his quick cast on the spell: Polar Ray. The spell remains in the blade, and effects any targets struck in melee, for the next 5 rounds. It also adds an additional +5 to hit, and +5 to damage from being a 5th level spell. Once the 5 rounds have elapsed the spell discharges normally.
***Discharge(s) = Has no further effect***
I'd like to see your 'reskinned' warmage with the sorcerer bloodline on a new thread and see what you did for the spell list when you have time.
The conversion is up over here. I didn't do much to him, the warmage class was always pretty powerful as they were, just added the bloodline and boosted the spell list. Kept the hit die the same. I did adjust the spells to match the sorcerer progression. Other than that, pretty straight forward.
Okay so this is what I finally settled on for a "Duskblade" conversion to pathfinder.
-I changed the 19th level ability. Also I tied the 17th and 19th level abilities together with their quick cast ability.
-Blade of Spell & Sword got reworked further into something more like the Eldritch Knight's "spell critical", but with a slight twist to the spell's save DC. The key phrase to the capstone ability is that it lets them cast "any spell of 1 standard action or less", unlike their regular arcane channeling ability which only lets them use spells with a range of touch.
Anyway, let me know what you think.
Hit Die: Update to D10 (for once I don't agree with this)
BAB: Same (good)
Saves: Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will Power
Class features: same except as notated below
Spell progression: Same/0-level spells converted to cantrips.
(note that cantrips are separate from Arcane Attunement ability)Level/Special
5.) Quick Cast 1/per day
6.) Spell Power +1
7.) Armored Mage (Heavy Shield)
8.) Quick Cast 2/per day
9.) Spell Power +2
10.) Armored Mage (Heavy Armor)
11.) Quick Cast 3/per day
12.) Spell Power +3
13.) Arcane Channeling (full attack)
14.) Quick Cast 4/per day
15.) Spell Power +4
16.) Arcane Channeling (Dispelling attack)
17.) Quick Cast 5/perday
18.) Spell Power +5
19.) Arcane Channeling (Spell Shield)
20.) Blade of Spell & Sword, Quick Cast 6/per day
**(Note: Level Chart is only from level 5-20 where features where changed)
Armored Mage (Heavy Armor)(Ex): At 10th level you learn to use heavy armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.
Arcane Channeling (Dispelling Attack)(Sp): At 16th level you can, expend two uses of your quick cast ability, to cast a modified version of the spell Dispel Magic as part of a full attack action and the spell effects each target that you strike in melee combat that round. Your Caster level check for this modified version of Disple Magic is a D20 + Base Attack Bonus. At the end of the round the spell discharges (ends) from your blade.
Arcane Channeling (Spell Shield)(Sp): At 19th level you can expend two uses of your quick cast ability to gain the benefit of having spell resistance for one full round. Your spell resistance is equal to your Duskblade Level + 10.
Blade of Spell & Sword (Su): By 20th level the Duskblade has mastered the art of combining sword play and spell casting, marrying the two into a unified deadly whole. Whenever the Duskblade confirms a critical hit, they can choose to cast any spell of 1 standard action or less, as a swift action. The Duskblade also increases the saving throw DC for this spell by the amount of his weapons critical threat multiplier.
For example a Duskblade of 20th level, wielding a longsword, with the improved critical feat, has a critical threat range of 17-20. He strikes and confirms a critical hit. He then choose to cast the spell Disintegrate as a swift action. The save DC for this spell is equal to 10 + Spell level (5) + Int Mod + 4(threat range of 17-20 = 4 numbers).
Pardon my ignorance, but a quick cast is an equivalent to a swift action, right? Can two quick casts (swift actions) be done in the same round as you're executing a standard action (going into melee)? Just wondered in general...
Pardon my ignorance, but a quick cast is an equivalent to a swift action, right? Can two quick casts (swift actions) be done in the same round as you're executing a standard action (going into melee)? Just wondered in general...
Think of it not so much as using 2 swift actions, but rather sacrificing 2 uses of your quick cast ability.
Arcane Channeling (Spell Shield)(Sp): At 19th level you can expend two uses of your quick cast ability to gain the benefit of having spell resistance for one full round. Your spell resistance is equal to your Duskblade Level + 10.
This lasts way too short; especially if you are using 2 uses. I would say 1/2 duskblade level.
Arcane Channeling (Spell Shield)(Sp): At 19th level you can expend two uses of your quick cast ability to gain the benefit of having spell resistance for one full round. Your spell resistance is equal to your Duskblade Level + 10.This lasts way too short; especially if you are using 2 uses. I would say 1/2 duskblade level.
Yeah that would work.
Edit:
Arcane Channeling (Spell Shield)(Sp): At 19th level you can expend two uses of your quick cast ability to gain the benefit of having spell resistance for a number of rounds equal to half your duskblade level. Your spell resistance is equal to your Duskblade Level + 10.