Well, the PF sections of the boards are currently recovering from the flames that occured due to the handling (or lack thereof) of monstrous PCs in the new PF Bestiary. Which has gotten me thinking of how monstrous characters were handled in good old glorious 3.5.
So I thought it would be nice to have a discussion about what are the perceived problems with LA/ECL? What are the features and what are the flaws? Does the system need tweaking or to be tossed out the window? What alternatives are there out there that might work better? Is LA buyoff a good idea? Are empty levels (the ones corresponding to LA) a glassjaw maker or (assuming scaled right) a good balance for powerful racial abilities?
So let's get discussing. As noted in the title, this is not about how Pathfinder should approach the subject of monstrous PCs. I want to keep the two separate due to some of the changes between the systems (some types and classes have been adjusted so what might be balanced in one system might not be in the other).
Oh yes, also, I think we should also separate the idea of ECL/LA with montrous progression. That is for example, we might look at an ogre and say that it is appropriate for a 6th level party (4 racial + 2 LA), but have trouble deciding how to get such a character into a group at first level and progress until it is 6th level. Those I think are two related, but separate issues and should be discussed at least at first as separate.
For those that don't know:
Now one suggestion I have considered is changing LA to not be empty but just very weak. For each LA a race has they would get the following:
*The skills for the racial HD would be considered class skills for the LA or the first class's skills if there is no racial HD.
They idea is to give some benefits for those LA, but extremely weak (effectively this is like making the creature take levels in commoner). This also would remove the distinction between the ECL and the total HD, and thus make calculating various details a bit easier.
If you ask me, the problem with monstruos races, LA, and ECL wasn't from mechanics, but rather a case of "User Error, Replace user and hit any key to continue". As far as meatspace tables go, I haven't met two DMs who have the same idea as to how to handle XP and levels for such characters. I keep wondering what is it that people find so impregnable about handling ECLs.
Let's take a lvl 1 Drow Fighter as an example (LA +2, you know people loves drow). From the d20 SRD, the drow's ECL will tell us the drow's equivalent level for the purpose of determining the amount of XP he needs to advance to the next level. This ECL is determined is determined by adding the Monster's Racial HD + class levels + Level Adjustment.
Having only 1 HD, the SRD says he forgoes this racial HD, using those from his class levels instead (so, for purposes of the Monster HD + class levels + LA, his Monster HD=0). Thus we have ECL = 0 (monster HD) + 1 (fighter level) + 2 (LA) = 3; the 'Class/Levels' part of his character sheet will say 'Fighter 1', but the 'Character Level' part of his sheet will say '3' (his Effective Character Level). For purposes of the XP/level progression table, he is assumed to have 3,000 'ghost' XP, thus requiring 3,000 XP to reach his next level (whereas his lvl-1, regular-race buddies only need 1,000.
The result: Saying all players receive constantly the same amount of XP, the drow PC will always be 1 HD behind the party. While in the case of drow this may seem unfair to many (barring of course the prejudice and constant persecution this PC -should- suffer at the hands of any DM worth his salt), the difference in hit-die becomes more extreme as we go up the food chain with yummier monstrous races, and we have a perfect example in Half-Celestial characters: The sweetest modifiers, DR, and SR all with an angelic face to boot, which looks like a sweet deal until your party is already facing challenges worth a Level-4 Party and you're still stuck with the hit points of a LEVEL ONE character, so it doesn't take more than a Burning Hands spell to 1-hit you... so sure, at levels 1-2 you're a beast, but levels 3-6 where Magic Users and Special-Attack Users make their appearance will require a monumental amount of luck to survive... and now I pity the fool who tries to play a VAMPIRE (LA +8)... while the possiblity of death is unlikely, I predict at least 12 levels of unliving hell where the poor sap is gonna be the proverbial "1-hit wonder", always being sent back to his coffin on the first round of combat:
"DM: Round 1, the dragon uses his breath weapon... you still want me to roll damage on the unlikely event that all dice turn to be '1's?"
"Vladimir, the Teenage Vampire: *grumbling* Nevermind, I'll go for snacks, anyone wants anything?"
The only change I'd make on the whole "monsters as characters" thing? Adding an explicit clause that, regardless of ECL, "special kid" PCs entering a game had a starting wealth equal to that of the Average Party Level's.
Having only 1 HD, the SRD says he forgoes this racial HD, using those from his class levels instead (so, for purposes of the Monster HD + class levels + LA, his Monster HD=0). Thus we have ECL = 0 (monster HD) + 1 (fighter level) + 2 (LA) = 3; the 'Class/Levels' part of his character sheet will say 'Fighter 1', but the 'Character Level' part of his sheet will say '3' (his Effective Character Level). For purposes of the XP/level progression table, he is assumed to have 3,000 'ghost' XP, thus requiring 3,000 XP to reach his next level (whereas his lvl-1, regular-race buddies only need 1,000.
Well, if we are just looking at the LA/ECL mechanic and not looking at how to have a montrous progression (how to play a monstrous character starting at level 1), then this drow shouldn't have "lvl-1, regular-race buddies" or "3000 'ghost' XP" because he shouldn't be in a level 1 party, he should be in a level 3 party. And thus he should have level 3, regular-race buddies and have 3000 actual xp.
I've been thinking. According to the rules the character's ECL is used to determine how much xp the character gets from an encounter. Remember that how much xp a character gets from an encounter is based on the CR of the foes, the number of PCs, and the character's ECL, not the party's approximate level. Thus lower level PCs get more xp for encounters than higher level ones do. Now what if instead of ECL being used, we instead use total HD. We still use ECL to know how much xp is needed to level, but xp is earned based solely on the HD.
So let's consider a drow fighter 1 in a 3rd level party, 4 members counting the drow. Let's assume there are four party-level equivalent enounters between each time xp is awarded. What do we see, using the above idea?
Session 1: 900 xp each
D: 3900 xp (3rd level, 1 HD); OPM: 3900 xp (3rd level, 3 HD)
Session 2: 900 xp each
D: 4800 xp (3rd level, 1 HD); OPM: 4800 xp (3rd level, 3 HD)
Session 3: 900 xp each
D: 5700 xp (3rd level, 1 HD); OPM: 5700 xp (3rd level, 3 HD)
Session 4: 900 xp each
D: 6600 xp (4rd level, 2 HD); OPM: 6600 xp (4rd level, 4 HD)
Session 5: 1350 xp for drow (2 HD), 1200 xp for OPM
D: 7950 xp (4rd level, 2 HD); OPM: 7800 xp (4rd level, 4 HD)
Session 6: 1350 xp for drow (2 HD), 1200 xp for OPM
D: 9300 xp (4rd level, 2 HD); OPM: 9000 xp (4rd level, 4 HD)
Session 7: 1350 xp for drow (2 HD), 1200 xp for OPM
D: 10650 xp (5th level, 3 HD); OPM: 10200 xp (5th level, 5 HD)
Session 8: 1800 xp for drow (3 HD), 1500 xp for OPM
D: 12450 xp (5th level, 3 HD); OPM: 11700 xp (5th level, 5 HD)
Session 9: 1800 xp for drow (3 HD), 1500 xp for OPM
D: 14250 xp (5th level, 3 HD); OPM: 13200 xp (5th level, 5 HD)
Session 10: 1800 xp for drow (3 HD), 1500 xp for OPM
D: 16050 xp (6th level, 4 HD); OPM: 14700 xp (5th level, 5 HD)
The drow fighter gets within 1 HD of the rest of the party after 10 sessions. Of course the rest of the party pulls away back to 2 HD above after the 11th session, but the drow is slowly catching up in HD but this calculation.
Of course, this is a bit complex, for the xp per level you use ECL but for the xp earned you use HD. I can see some people getting mixed up with that, but they get mixed up now.
The way I handle racial hit die and level adjustments is... I don't.
Races are easy to homebrew in a fairly balanced manner. All nonstandard races start out medium or small, with +2 to one stat and -2 to another (or no stat mods at all) plus incidentals. More powerful abilities and larger sizes (or smaller size) may be available as feats.
Want to play a succubus?
Medium Outsider
-2 Str, +2 Cha
30' land speed (no fly speed)
+2 Bluff/Diplomacy
Charm Person 1/day
Minor Shapechange (as Changeling)
No level adjustment, no racial hit die.
Except that's not 'really' a succubus. The charm of playing these creatures is to have all the tricks and cards they have.Sorceror levels anyone?
That would work!
The way I handle racial hit die and level adjustments is... I don't.
Races are easy to homebrew in a fairly balanced manner. All nonstandard races start out medium or small, with +2 to one stat and -2 to another (or no stat mods at all) plus incidentals. More powerful abilities and larger sizes (or smaller size) may be available as feats.
Want to play a succubus?
Medium Outsider
-2 Str, +2 Cha
30' land speed (no fly speed)
+2 Bluff/Diplomacy
Charm Person 1/day
Minor Shapechange (as Changeling)No level adjustment, no racial hit die.
Feels a bit more like a plane-touched with a succubus flavor. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just seems to be more of a "lesser succubus".
Except that's not 'really' a succubus. The charm of playing these creatures is to have all the tricks and cards they have.
Feels a bit more like a plane-touched with a succubus flavor. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just seems to be more of a "lesser succubus".
Ah, but that's the thing. What makes a succubus is not the six hit die, or the hundred foot telepathy, or the Energy Drain ability. "Succubus" is a character aspect of a beautiful and wily demoness. The stats presented in the Monster Manual are merely one representation among an infinite array of representations. Choosing one representation over another does not mean the product ceases to be a succubus.
And there's more that can easily be done to preserve the feel of a succubus without actually using the MM succubus stats.
For example, offer succubus substitution levels on the Beguiler. Level 1, swap out the intelligence-based casting for charisma-based casting. Level five, swap out Silent Spell for Kiss Spell, allowing the succubus to cast mind spells through a kiss, ignoring both verbal and somatic components and rendering the spell unidentifiable. Level ten, swap out Still Spell for Telepathy and Tongues.
If that isn't succubesque enough, odds are you're too fixated on the succubus being six hit die, flight, Energy Drain, +2/+2/+2/+6/+4/+16 stat mods, and a Summon Demon ability.
Except that's not 'really' a succubus. The charm of playing these creatures is to have all the tricks and cards they have.Feels a bit more like a plane-touched with a succubus flavor. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just seems to be more of a "lesser succubus".Ah, but that's the thing. What makes a succubus is not the six hit die, or the hundred foot telepathy, or the Energy Drain ability. "Succubus" is a character aspect of a beautiful and wily demoness. The stats presented in the Monster Manual are merely one representation among an infinite array of representations. Choosing one representation over another does not mean the product ceases to be a succubus.
And there's more that can easily be done to preserve the feel of a succubus without actually using the MM succubus stats.
For example, offer succubus substitution levels on the Beguiler. Level 1, swap out the intelligence-based casting for charisma-based casting. Level five, swap out Silent Spell for Kiss Spell, allowing the succubus to cast mind spells through a kiss, ignoring both verbal and somatic components and rendering the spell unidentifiable. Level ten, swap out Still Spell for Telepathy and Tongues.
If that isn't succubesque enough, odds are you're too fixated on the succubus being six hit die, flight, Energy Drain, +2/+2/+2/+6/+4/+16 stat mods, and a Summon Demon ability.
And Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft., tongues, Spell-Like Abilities At will—charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Well your suggestion works great for a lesser succubus, it is no greater fiend that a true succubus is.
The hit dice are the least interesting feature of a succubus.
I've never tried it, but I'm partial to the "Races of War" treatment (scroll down to where it says "Powerful Monsters as PCs"). The short version -- in an ECL X campaign, you can play a CR X-1 creature (assuming it doesn't have some game-breaking ability) by doing some minor tinkering with HD (so HD = X) and stats (assume the creature in the book used the Elite array).
And Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft., tongues, Spell-Like Abilities At will—charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Well your suggestion works great for a lesser succubus, it is no greater fiend that a true succubus is.
The hit dice are the least interesting feature of a succubus.
Rubbish. And those tertiary features are just that; tertiary. They're not what define the breed in any capacity.
Mind that a succubus out of the MM is an ECL 12 being. A twelfth-level Beguiler with the succubus substitution levels I laid down can cast Feeblemind through a kiss. Or Dominate Person. Or Feeblemind. Even, with a bit of finagling, [Lesser] Geas. She's far sturdier than the MM counterpart, with vast and sweeping magical powers and a vast array of skills and talents appropriate to a powerful succubus. There's nothing "lesser" about them; the spell-likes are surpassed by actual spells, and the incidental resistances are meaningless.
To even say that not having spell resistance makes this succubus somehow "lesser" is to become far too fixated on the succubus being that exact entry in the Monster Manual, and only that exact entry. Immunity to electricity has absolutely nothing to do with what a succubus is supposed to be, and to claim the LA0 variant to be somehow "lesser" for lacking it is arbitrary and absurd.
The later Race levels grant the remaining special abilities of the race as well as hit points and skill points. This allows the player to make a choice between acquiring access to the better race abilities or class abilities as they level up. I apply no XP penalty to this multi-class (I usually do not apply XP penalties for multi-classing anyway).
How do you handle LA, as these provide no hit points or skill points?
Ah, but that's the thing. What makes a succubus is not the six hit die, or the hundred foot telepathy, or the Energy Drain ability. "Succubus" is a character aspect of a beautiful and wily demoness. The stats presented in the Monster Manual are merely one representation among an infinite array of representations. Choosing one representation over another does not mean the product ceases to be a succubus.
Hmm, while I usually don't like handling different rules for PCs and NPCs... your solution is rather practical, elegant, and easy to implement.
What about bonuses to Bluff, and Sense Motive? (and Perform(Sexual Techniques) if available... now don't you dare giving me that look, as if we weren't talking about a succubus!)
Treats the whip as a martial weapon perhaps?
And Favored Class: Why? BARD of course. =)
For the other supernatural abilities and qualities like resistances, detect thoughts, etc, you can always take the route of sorcerers' Heritage Feats from the PHB 2 too. With some levels you could get close enough to the real thing.
...handling different rules for PCs and NPCs...
Which is pretty much what mine and perhaps others problem was with it. If the PC "succubus" doesn't fit with the NPC succubus, then there is a problem. As I said, I thought it would work good for a special type of tiefling, a succubus-touched (now you don't look at me like that) being. Doing work arounds (I said WORK), isn't much different than playing a human and taking various classes and feats and calling yourself a "succubus".
Doing work arounds (I said WORK), isn't much different than playing a human and taking various classes and feats and calling yourself a "succubus".
I agree; playing a re-skinned human isn't playing a monster, it's just adding another mildly different PC race. Which is just fine, of course, but it's still banning players from playing monsters.
Now one suggestion I have considered is changing LA to not be empty but just very weak. For each LA a race has they would get the following:
1d4+con hp
1/2 BAB
all poor saves
2+Int skills* *The skills for the racial HD would be considered class skills for the LA or the first class's skills if there is no racial HD.
They idea is to give some benefits for those LA, but extremely weak (effectively this is like making the creature take levels in commoner). This also would remove the distinction between the ECL and the total HD, and thus make calculating various details a bit easier.
Pres Man, I just had to tell you; that is almost EXACTLY what I came up with to save our ECL playability. Only difference was the skill points were spent as if they had no class skills attached to them. Truly the least you could get from a level and still get "a level". It worked...sort of.....it allows your high LA critters to SURVIVE...and nothing more. They lack the punch of their supposed character level. They have no power, and need all the healing...not much glory to be had. And that is only with the melee types, and LA less than HD...after that it all goes to hell.
There is a slight bump in Pathfinder, as they would properly get d6 HD for the LA "levels", they would be a little more doable. But I find that the biggest problem is over-valued LA. Monster races are given too much credit for things like spell-like abilities and such. Trimming down the LA, and instituting an automatic reduction of LA, a la Pathfinder Bestiary: Monsters as PCs, would go a long way to making it livable.
I think you MUST have some kind of ECL system for a sustainable fun campaign. There are just too many applications for the rules from PC alternatives to Cohorts, to interesting LONG TERM NPCs.
I have been thinking (overlong) about a system where you can reduce a monstrous race to it's minimum essential abilties and HD. Just enough to sustain the "proper" critter. For instance 1/3 round up of normal HD, and perhaps edit specials (especially excessive show stopping spell-like abilities), then advance with class levels. Ultimately (in-a-perfect-world-under-a-perfect-sky), I'd love to see all "monsters" statted out this way, as the pinnacle of the 3.5 "PC/Monter stat unification doctrine".
Wow, got goin and had to say a little more than I thought.
Cheers
Hmm, while I usually don't like handling different rules for PCs and NPCs... your solution is rather practical, elegant, and easy to implement.
Mind that the current system already has PCs and NPCs working under different rules, which is part of the problem. A normal ogre is a CR3 monster, but it's an ECL 6 PC, so before class levels, a player running an ogre should be able to take on three of her exact clones by right of being an ogre. Which, of course, is nuts.
Also, there's nothing keeping you from turning around and using that ECL0 succubus to create some NPCs of your own.
Which is pretty much what mine and perhaps others problem was with it. If the PC "succubus" doesn't fit with the NPC succubus, then there is a problem. As I said, I thought it would work good for a special type of tiefling, a succubus-touched (now you don't look at me like that) being. Doing work arounds (I said WORK), isn't much different than playing a human and taking various classes and feats and calling yourself a "succubus".
An orc Druid and an orc Barbarian are both orcs, despite having completely disparate ability sets. They're still nothing alike. Not every member of a race has to be exact clones of each other. What's more, there is absolutely no reason why this succubus is not a normal, full-blooded, full-powered succubus. After all, where do you think the Beguiler magic's coming from? Or the racial feats?
My version of succubi is more distinct from humans than gnomes, or changelings, or elves, or halflings, which are all distinct races in their own right.
Again, you're getting way too caught up in that one representation in the MM. You're decreeing that this thing from the Monster Manual is the one and only true succubus in the universe, that there can be no other, that any deviation ceases to be a succubus, or is a lesser succubus, and it cannot be tolerated.
The Monster Manual entry is one, and only one, way to frame a succubus. What's more, the mechanics are invisible. The level 12 succubus Beguiler is a dangerous and wily force. The standard 6HD succubus is also a dangerous and wily force. That these manifest in different ways doesn't particularly matter. That the MM succubus happens to be under the "Succubus" header in the book doesn't make it any more valid, so long as the succubus Beguiler is an adequately succubesque representation. And what makes it "succubesque" has absolutely nothing to do with the MM entry and everything to do with what a succubus is supposed to be capable of. Criteria which the level 12 succubus Beguiler meets with ease.
Again, you're getting way too caught up in that one representation in the MM. You're decreeing that this thing from the Monster Manual is the one and only true succubus in the universe, that there can be no other, that any deviation ceases to be a succubus, or is a lesser succubus, and it cannot be tolerated.
Or, to look at it the other way, you're decreeing that a player can never play a succubus from the Monster Manual. Which is fine, of course -- it's your game, and the rules for playing a Monster Manual succubus suck (a bus). But that's not what pres man is looking for.
A normal ogre is a CR3 monster, but it's an ECL 6 PC, so before class levels, a player running an ogre should be able to take on three of her exact clones by right of being an ogre. Which, of course, is nuts.
Sorry, your statement is a bit deceptive here. A PC ogre is going to have better stats and better gear and unless you are doing duels/arena fights a party to back them up. True, it is a bit off and perhaps the LA should be reduced or even removed (stick only with racial HD), but not as badly as your "by right of being an ogre" statement would seem to indicate.
An orc Druid and an orc Barbarian are both orcs, despite having completely disparate ability sets. They're still nothing alike.
Nothing? Light sensitivity? Darkvision? Stronger than their human counter-parts? Dumber than their human counter-parts? I think they have some similiarities.
Again, you're getting way too caught up in that one representation in the MM. You're decreeing that this thing from the Monster Manual is the one and only true succubus in the universe, that there can be no other, that any deviation ceases to be a succubus, or is a lesser succubus, and it cannot be tolerated.
You seem to be getting a bit riled up here. Let's all take a deep breath. No, there are certainly different versions of a succubus, some have class levels, some have more racial HD, some have not fully matured (monstrous progression possibly). What I am saying is I am not interested in making the base stats totally different for each individual succubus, which in the end makes things like Knowledge (Planes) meaningless or worse utterly ridiculous.
When a PC in my game visits a Demon-Lord who has 5 succubus concubines, are those concubines going to be based on the MM stats (with some modifications: class levels, outsider HD, etc) or am I going to make unique stats for each and everyone? Well, I am lazy, that is why I use a MM, so they will be based on the stats in the MM. Then the question becomes does the PC version "fit" or is something so different that it would qualify as an entirely different race? I also have a hard time telling a player, "You are going to take levels in a PC class, but you HAVE to use this class with these modifications." At that point, why not just create a monstrous progression with racial HD?
At that point, why not just create a monstrous progression with racial HD?Because that's a metric ton of work. :P Like we said in the PF monster PC threads.
Really, because I knock this out in very little time. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is necessarily a good progression, and I think probably a couple of the LA's can be knocked off, and those that are kept could have the stuff I listed at the beginning of this thread. But it wasn't anything like a "metric ton of work".
Level 2: DR 5/cold iron or good, immune to poison, Cha +2
Level 3: HD, wings (glide only), Con +2, detect thoughts
Level 4: immune to electricity, +4 listen and spot, Dex +2, change shape
Level 5: HD, wings (average), Cha +2, summon demon
Level 6: +4 Natural armor, resist: acid 5, cold 5, fire 5, SR 18, tongues, Cha +2
Level 7: HD, Str +2, Wis +2, suggestion
Level 8: DR 10/cold iron or good, cha +2, energy drain
Level 9: HD, telepathy, Cha +2, charm monster
Level 10: resist: acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, Wis +2, Cha +2, Greater teleport
Level 11: HD, Cha +2
Level 12: Cha +2, ethereal jaunt
I'd also suggest allowing the character to be an "apprentice" (see 3e DMG) in their first PC class, until level 13 when they gain the full benefits of it.
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i remember reading some guy's XP Debt mechanic. i was planning on implementing a variant on it.
take a Race with LA or Racial HD.
they do not gain Ghost XP.
The equivalent Ghost XP is actually a Debt. based on the Racial HD + ECL +1. for an example a 4hd ogre with a +2 level adjustment owes an XP debt of 21,000. A Vampire (+8 LA) owes 36,000. half the XP they gain goes to paying off this debt. but Level Adjustment doesn't apply to ECL anymore. Racial HD do though. level adjusment now applies for determining XP debt and that's it. a level 1 human vampire sorcerer would to reach lvl 2 require 1,000 XP and gain XP as if they were level 1. (1st-2nd) however half the XP they gain goes to paying off thier 36,000 XP debt until it has been payed in full. the level 1 ogre fighter would need enough XP to go from 5th-6th to reach level 2. but would count as 5th for ecl. his xp is halved till he pays off a debt of 21,000.
You know if I figure in the LA->pseudo-commoner* idea, the succubus holds up pretty well compared to the core classes.
Let's compare it to a 12th level rogue.
succubus: 6d8+6d4 (average 45 hp)
rogue: 12d6 (average 44 hp)
Skill points:
succubus: 9(8)+6(2) (84 skill points)
rogue: 15(8) (120 skill points)
*but remember the succubus is going to get an +6 Int boost eventually
Saves:
succubus: 5+2 = 7 in all
rogue: Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +4
BA:
succubus: 6+3 = +9
rogue: 9
Feats:
succubus: 5
rogue: 5
Ability adjustments over 12 levels:
succubus: Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +16
rogue: 3 points to be distributed by choice
class/race features:
succubus: flight, claws, natural armor, energy drain, summon demon, shape change, damage reduction, spell resistance, telepathy, tongues, charm monster, detect good, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport
rogue: sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion, trapsense, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, a special ability
At first glance, I almost want to say it is too powerful with this variant, not insanely so, but still. I would say given the number of skill points they get overall and the skills they have racial skills and their boosts to stats, the succubus would make a pretty good roguish inflitrator character.
**The skills for the racial HD would be considered class skills for the LA or the first class's skills if there is no racial HD.