Or whatever you want to call them - Action Points, Fate Points, Karma Points, Plot Points, et cetera. For reference here's a good but somewhat dated summary of a bunch of hero point mechanics by John H. Kim.
Here's the deal. I want to use something like this for my new Pathfinder campaign. We've been pretty constantly using the Eberron "Action Point" mechanic (Eberron Campaign Setting, p.45) in all our group's campaigns since we saw it. You get 5 + 1/2 character levels of them, and they let you add 1d6 (or best of multiple d6 at high levels) to a roll before you know whether it's successful or not. They work pretty well. But I've begun to be dissatisfied with them.
I noticed it some in Rise of the Runelords and even more in Curse of the Crimson Throne that we'd end a level with a lot of action points left over. There were a couple reasons.
1. You would hoard them "just in case." This was somewhat mitigated by them refreshing every level, but you didn't know when you were going to level.
2. They didn't do all that much - you wouldn't use them unless you were ultra desperate or thought you were within 3 points of the DC you needed. As levels get higher and numbers range more widely, a lot of the time you knew there was no point in using the action point on a given miss.
3. Because of the inconsistency of the core D&D mechanic in terms of what is a d20 roll you are making and what isn't, you could use them to make a save but not to not get hit in combat, so their utility in saving your bacon was reduced. Though you can use an action point to stabilize when at negative hit points, again as levels get high it's rarer a shot lands you in that magic 10 point range; it's more likely to overkill you by like 30 points when it comes. D&D 3.5e number scaling past level 10 is a cruel mistress.
4. The APs tried to give hero points of their own, like Crimson Throne had Harrow Points that gave bonuses to a different stat with each chapter. This was frustrating in and of itself when the stat was a poor match - as a priest, fighter, and ranger was the party most of the time, I was the only one to use the Wis and Cha boosts. But it also created a "too many different boost points" problem and they got totally forgotten most of the time.
5. It was a buzzkill when you used one and still didn't make the roll.
We're also playing Alternity, which has Last Resort Points. These points are better in some ways. They're worse in that you get from 0-2 of them and they don't regenerate with level, you have to buy more with XP, which means they're too scarce. They're much better in that they just flat turn a failure into a success (or boost a success to a higher level of success).
Also, some systems (like PDQ Sharp's Style Dice) let you use such points to make actual narrative plot changes with points. "A Chelish warship appears on the horizon!" "Our old ally Vincenz shows up!" "The dungeon passage collapses!"
So there's a couple different axes that a hero point mechanic can work on.
* How do you get them/how do they regenerate? (Buy with XP, when you roll a crit, when you roll a fumble, when you do something cool, when you act according to some character trait, when you level, every game session, per adventure)
* What can they do? (Reroll, small fixed bonus to roll, small variable bonus to roll, large fixed or variable bonus, automatic success level upgrade, change plot/world, activate powerz, make a save/get missed/soak damage, get init or an extra action)
* When can you use them? (Before you roll, after you roll but before you determine the result, after you determine the result)
* How many does someone get and how often can they use them (anytime, once per scene, once per session, something else)
Here's what I'm thinking about doing.
First, I want the points to "do more" - ideally fully turn a miss into a hit or whatnot, not add on a small bonus. Seems to me that the mechanic's not worth having unless it does this much; otherwise it's a lot of fiddliness (and worse, a breaking out of immersion) without enough punch to justify it. So one option is that the points are fairly rare, but can:
* Turn a miss into a hit
* Turn a hit into a crit
* Turn a hit into a miss (usually, if you're the one getting hit)
* Turn a crit into a hit (same)
* Make a save
* Make a target fail their save (maybe... but maybe not. With save-or-dies seems too powerful. Maybe make a target reroll their save.)
* Bypass SR
* Override a bad condition (possessed, feared, paralyzed, etc.) for a round
* Otherwise "save your damn life" somehow
However, one of our group has an interesting alternate proposal - that the points go up in efficacy as you use them. First point you use is a +1 (or -1 on an opponent's roll). Second point, +2. And so on. This is a clever way to both ramp up effectiveness over time (I'm neutral there) and to discourage hoarding (I'm very on board with that). It does mean that eventually the points become worth +20 or more, at worst that reduces to auto fail/success but in higher level 3.5e play it may still not be enough sometimes. It is a little more fiddly though, they have to be strongly paced at about two per level.
I'd also like them to be usable to make narrative changes, with DM oversight. Any kind of hero point is already stepping outside the simulation for an explicitly narrative concern, so in for a penny, in for a pound, I figure.
In general you should give them for behavior you want to promote. I don't really like giving them for crits or whatnot, that seems too random and also generates undesirable interactions with crit feats. I'm doing slow advancement in this campaign, so there'll probably be a couple adventures per level. I plan to call them "Infamy Points" to match the pirate theme. Perhaps give one per level and one per adventure, to semi-reflect the character becoming more bad ass and feared and... infamous. Maybe bonus points whenever anyone does something spectacular that could rightfully be said to raise their infamy level.
I'm also considering having the Infamy Point total be used as a bonus to certain Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy rolls as a kind of raw fame and deadliness bonus, though the problem is that if you get 2-3 per level that bonus gets out of control. Maybe a bonus equal to unused Infamy Points?
What do all of you think? Do you use any kind of hero point mechanic? Do you like lots of them with wimpy bonuses, or fewer with more guaranteed results? Have any clever ideas for me?
I don't currently use Action Points with Pathfinder, primarily because I'm running a Ravenloft campaign and giving the heroes lots of bennies just isn't in the spirit of it. I have used them before in 3.5 and more extensively in D20 Modern where they are part of the rules.
I've also played DC Heroes quite extensively (moreso even than D20) where they have a thing called "Hero Points" that refreshes per adventure. You can use them to raise scores in game (up to double), raise scores permanently (much more expensive), or even modify the game environment ("How many hero points for there to be a vial of acid on the table over there?")
I did come up with something similar to your suggestion once, but never implemented it. It basically worked out to giving everyone a "Fudge Chit" at the beginning of every session (including the DM). It can be used to reverse any event in the session. For example, you miss the bad guy in the final encounter with your power attack. Throw in your chit and "Bam!" you hit. Roll damage normally. When you start messing strictly with numbers like the Action Point, it's really random whether it does any good to use one or not.
M&M 2 has an interesting way of doing point regen that could be useful for more powerful points like you describe. In addition to the get them back with each adventure (which I'm kinda lukewarm about), whenever there's a DM Fiat (such as an unavoidable trap put in for plot reasons) the affected players all get a free point.
It generally makes my players less annoyed when I drop them into a maze or gas them and take all their stuff at the beginning of an adventure, and keeps the numbers down.
'make a hit automatically crit' might be a bit strong, if you use it with a x3 or x4 multiplier weapon... Maybe make it so that autocrits are always x2 (or increase the multiplier by 1 if applied to an existing crit).
M&M 2 has an interesting way of doing point regen that could be useful for more powerful points like you describe. In addition to the get them back with each adventure (which I'm kinda lukewarm about), whenever there's a DM Fiat (such as an unavoidable trap put in for plot reasons) the affected players all get a free point.
It generally makes my players less annoyed when I drop them into a maze or gas them and take all their stuff at the beginning of an adventure, and keeps the numbers down.
'make a hit automatically crit' might be a bit strong, if you use it with a x3 or x4 multiplier weapon... Maybe make it so that autocrits are always x2 (or increase the multiplier by 1 if applied to an existing crit).
Maybe just "pretend you rolled a 20" could replace the miss->hit and hit-> crit upgrades entirely. So you'd have to confirm on your own. But if you've hit already, upgrading to a crit isn't all that much of a big deal I think.
Still has the same problem, here's supposed to be a balance between a 19-20/x2 weapon and a x3 weapon. The auto-20 or autocrit gives the x3 a big advantage.
Still has the same problem, here's supposed to be a balance between a 19-20/x2 weapon and a x3 weapon. The auto-20 or autocrit gives the x3 a big advantage.
Auto hit gives the guy with 3d6 sneak attack a big edge over the guy who doesn't, or the guy with a big weapon over a two-weapon fighter. I am willing to not worry about that level of "fairness."
For a balanced look at action points take a look at trail blazer.
http://www.badaxegames.com/
Unfornately I couldn't find a pazio store link for it perhaps they are exlusive with RPGnow I don't know.
Back to the point you want a crunchy take on it go there.
They are the best at cruch I have ever seen.
But I like you currently use the ebberon action point system with differences.
One it has no tie-ins with any class features regardless of if there from ebberon setting or not.
So just the basic add the dice or auto stablize.
But...
Here is what I do.
They don't refresh with level or at all.
You can only gain action points by discribing something awesome.
You want to avoid the wiff factor in the game?
Thats fine now the onus is on the player to earn them and when there given they know thats how you want them to role play and they will contuine to role play like that.
Not trying to make a hugely bad pun but it's very rewarding.
Players want to do really cool things because it can get them action points and you as the DM get see creative side flair and you can reward them for helping you advance the plot line rather than going off track and looking the wizards tower because maybe he might have something magic to sell us.
I'd also like them to be usable to make narrative changes, with DM oversight. Any kind of hero point is already stepping outside the simulation for an explicitly narrative concern, so in for a penny, in for a pound, I figure.
Narrative changes are a cool idea, but they aren't the same as normal hero/action points at all.
Sure, action points deal with the narrative and the metagame, but they deal with the narrative and the metagame of your character. This is a realm that most players are already comfortable with. They go there whenever they say "Jorm is really starting to trust and open up to his friends now", or "It would be cool if Ithisis started relying on dark magic more and more as the game went on", or "Alayra isn't as heartless as she thinks she is."
It's not about preserving the simulation completely; no player will ever think EXCLUSIVELY in-character, no matter what you do, nor should they. It's just about preserving their character as the vehicle by which the interact with the world.
I once used a hero point when lobbing a tanglefoot bag at a fleeing villain, and was a little disappointed when the DM described "a stiff wind miraculously picking up to correct your aim." I hadn't pictured some karmic outside force helping me out; I had just picture my character being exceptionally awesome at that moment in time. They're two different things.
In response to the 'auto crit' thing, just say you deal double damage. That's how hero points work in Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. It's +20 to the attack roll, or double damage if the attack would have normally hit anyway.
Arcana Evolved also gives out hero points at basically any point when you'd normally give XP awards (good roleplaying, meeting story objectives, players doing awesome things that enrich the game, etc), which is how I've generally handled it. Without item creation, spells, or death draining XP, it's easy to say that all players have the same amount of experience and just give out heropoints instead.
Still has the same problem, here's supposed to be a balance between a 19-20/x2 weapon and a x3 weapon. The auto-20 or autocrit gives the x3 a big advantage.Auto hit gives the guy with 3d6 sneak attack a big edge over the guy who doesn't, or the guy with a big weapon over a two-weapon fighter. I am willing to not worry about that level of "fairness."
Sneak attack damage doesn't multiply on crits, and big weapon/small weapon are still proportionally balanced.
Let's see. So far the things I've heard that I like are:
Use an Infamy Point no more than once an encounter to:
1. Take a natural 20 on a roll
2. Act out of initiative order
3. Get a free standard action
4. Cast a spell you don't have memorized (but know)
5. Declare "you missed me neener neener" to a weapon or spell attack
6. Use a feat you don't have or a class ability from one of your classes you don't have yet
7. Pull off a cool stunt automatically
8. Other game effect on request - bypass SR, whatever you need man
9. Limited narrative rewrite - introduce a story element, have someone show up at an opportune moment, have just the right piece of equipment around
You can also use an infamy point anytime to avoid death, though there will likely be permanent impact of some kind (scarring/disability, equipment loss, other). You can use multiple infamy points in collaboration with the DM to add/change larger story elements.
I'd also like them to be usable to make narrative changes, with DM oversight. Any kind of hero point is already stepping outside the simulation for an explicitly narrative concern, so in for a penny, in for a pound, I figure.Narrative changes are a cool idea, but they aren't the same as normal hero/action points at all.
Sure, action points deal with the narrative and the metagame, but they deal with the narrative and the metagame of your character...
I once used a hero point when lobbing a tanglefoot bag at a fleeing villain, and was a little disappointed when the DM described "a stiff wind miraculously picking up to correct your aim." I hadn't pictured some karmic outside force helping me out; I had just picture my character being exceptionally awesome at that moment in time. They're two different things.
As to the first point, I agree they're not necessarily the same, and you could go for "character only" points. I think we'll be comfortable enough going past that.
A word on the example, though - I think the real problem here was that the DM took it on himself to describe the result rather than letting you - a common failing in general but especially egregious when a hero point is in play. Upon spending the point, he should have had you describe your auto-hit on your terms. (Another player may well want the more "force of karma" feel to their success.)
I'm actually fine with DMs describing these things (I enjoy such descriptions); I was illustrating the difference between a metagame control on the forces governing your character verses a metagame control of the forces outside your character.
Letting PCs describe things themselves is a great way to sidestep such potential differences in expectations, however. :) And you're right, some players would have preferred the karma-thing, but I think those are the same players who would love to spend a hero point and have the cavern collapse.
Incidentally, I actually think that letting players affect the narrative (even beyond their character) is really cool. And in hindsight I wouldn't have minded the 'karma point' approach if I had been viewing it that way from the start; it was just a divergence of expectations. It's not that either is good or bad, just that they're different.
I rather like Eberron action points, although I agree that their usefulness is directly proportional to how good you are at guessing how close you are to success. If you're really good at estimating, then they're practically like a +3 bonus to every important roll. I do find that some players hoard them, though. I don't do that any more, although I did in the first Eberron game I played in. Eventually I figured out that I could basically use one as often as I liked and I'd never run out (or I'd just barely run out) before they're replenished.
I'd be a little wary about making your Infamy points more powerful and more scarce; won't that just lead to even more hoarding?
Let's see. So far the things I've heard that I like are:
Use an Infamy Point no more than once an encounter to:
5. Declare "you missed me neener neener" to a weapon or spell attack
6. Use a feat you don't have or a class ability from one of your classes you don't have yet
Couple of thoughts. With # 5, instead of negating a hit to a miss, allow them to spend an infamy point to roll a d6 to reduce DM's attack roll. It could be that -3 that changes the hit to a miss.
As for #6, assign them a penalty to use the feat they don't have (as long as they have the necessary prereqs). For example, if something gives them a +2 bonus, decrease it to a +1. Or if firing into melee and they want point blank shot, decrease it from -4 to -2 to hit.
It still gives them the cinematic effect because they're essentially unskilled / untrained, but they shouldn't always necessarily get the full effect for something they don't necessarily have. Call it dumb luck.
Let's see. So far the things I've heard that I like are:
Use an Infamy Point no more than once an encounter to:
5. Declare "you missed me neener neener" to a weapon or spell attack
6. Use a feat you don't have or a class ability from one of your classes you don't have yet
Couple of thoughts. With # 5, instead of negating a hit to a miss, allow them to spend an infamy point to roll a d6 to reduce DM's attack roll. It could be that -3 that changes the hit to a miss.
As for #6, assign them a penalty to use the feat they don't have (as long as they have the necessary prereqs). For example, if something gives them a +2 bonus, decrease it to a +1. Or if firing into melee and they want point blank shot, decrease it from -4 to -2 to hit.
It still gives them the cinematic effect because they're essentially unskilled / untrained, but they shouldn't always necessarily get the full effect for something they don't necessarily have. Call it dumb luck.
I'll just make the points rare instead, I don't want additional rules overhead (especially not something where I have to figure it out per every single feat or spell!).
I'll just make the points rare instead, I don't want additional rules overhead (especially not something where I have to figure it out per every single feat or spell!).
I understand completely. I think in the way that I responded, I basically reduced the effectiveness by half, which would be easy to remember across the board.
I think Hero Points should have two goals.
1.) Safety net vs. uncinematic player death or failure. This is why it's important to let players use them reactively.
2.) Making cool things happen.
Player: Can I do X?
DM: Umm.. *thinking of what would happen if X were attempted every fight* No.
Player: What if I spend a hero point?
DM: Oh, in that case, sure.
Unlikely successes, I think, count as "cool things happening" for these purposes.
Eberron action points don't really do either of these things, I feel. The aren't all that likely to save your bacon if used reactively (especially at higher levels) and only make you marginally cooler if you use them proactively (if you make a single long-shot arrow attack against the badguy just before he gets out of range, action points don't help you much. If you want to curse your rival so hard that his descendants to the sevenths generation will feel it, action points don't help you at all).
This doesn't make them a bad mechanic. I like the way you get lots of them for free, I like the way you can spend them to essentially get a +3 bonus to everything during important fights, and I like the way they interface with the rest of the system (i.e. you can spend them to get extra utility out of certain feats or powers). But they're not what "hero points" would be in my game.
I think Hero Points should have two goals.
1.) Safety net vs. uncinematic player death or failure. This is why it's important to let players use them reactively.
2.) Making cool things happen.
Player: Can I do X?
DM: Umm.. *thinking of what would happen if X were attempted every fight* No.
Player: What if I spend a hero point?
DM: Oh, in that case, sure.
Unlikely successes, I think, count as "cool things happening" for these purposes.Eberron action points don't really do either of these things, I feel. [Good points about Eberron's points deleted] But they're not what "hero points" would be in my game.
I agree. I'm just not sure how to make hero points that accomplish #1 and #2 without causing players to hoard them. In particular, I suspect most of the conservative players I know would almost never use option #2, and would even be reluctant to use option #1 ("Raise Dead only costs 5,000 gp...").
Heck, I've even known players who would refuse to use a charge from a fully-charged wand because they're saving it "just in case"!
I'll just make the points rare instead, I don't want additional rules overhead (especially not something where I have to figure it out per every single feat or spell!).I understand completely. I think in the way that I responded, I basically reduced the effectiveness by half, which would be easy to remember across the board.
Yeah, it's just that there's a lot of stuff that doesn't have a numerical bonus associated with it so you end up with lots of judgement calls and specific negotiation...
I agree. I'm just not sure how to make hero points that accomplish #1 and #2 without causing players to hoard them. In particular, I suspect most of the conservative players I know would almost never use option #2, and would even be reluctant to use option #1 ("Raise Dead only costs 5,000 gp...").Heck, I've even known players who would refuse to use a charge from a fully-charged wand because they're saving it "just in case"!
Sure, and you can never totally prevent hoarding; the best you can do is show how people using them are better off. "refreshing" them can incent players to use them, but people can be more obstinate than that... Upping their value as you use more can help, but again, you can't *make* the players use them. But that's OK, if one guy somewhere does that's fine, I just want the mechanic to not encourage hoarding such that most of the players use them at semi-appropriate times.
I think Hero Points should have two goals.
1.) Safety net vs. uncinematic player death or failure. This is why it's important to let players use them reactively.
2.) Making cool things happen.
Player: Can I do X?
DM: Umm.. *thinking of what would happen if X were attempted every fight* No.
Player: What if I spend a hero point?
DM: Oh, in that case, sure.
Unlikely successes, I think, count as "cool things happening" for these purposes.Eberron action points don't really do either of these things, I feel. The aren't all that likely to save your bacon if used reactively (especially at higher levels) and only make you marginally cooler if you use them proactively (if you make a single long-shot arrow attack against the badguy just before he gets out of range, action points don't help you much. If you want to curse your rival so hard that his descendants to the sevenths generation will feel it, action points don't help you at all).
This doesn't make them a bad mechanic. I like the way you get lots of them for free, I like the way you can spend them to essentially get a +3 bonus to everything during important fights, and I like the way they interface with the rest of the system (i.e. you can spend them to get extra utility out of certain feats or powers). But they're not what "hero points" would be in my game.
I agree and I am tempted to have both, with the copious but marginally useful action points and then rare but boss hero points, just worried about confusing the field with too many options. I like the idea of giving tokens to represent them which can help distinguish (we did that with bennies in Savage Worlds). Heck if I found the right dollar store or had someone going to Pirates of the Carribbean soon we could use pieces of eight or similar piratey knick-knacks.
A pretty good standard is wizards star wars saga edition. They have two tiers of points. The first force points which are similar to the eberon hero point add a d6 to a roll. (however there are built in game mechanics to work with them, like certain player abilities being enhance with force points. The upper tear is destiny points, you only get one of these a level (or possibly 2 if you are a specific prestige class). These however are realy game changers, make an attack miss, make an attack auto crit, act out of turn, or do something really potent with specifc character abilities (like double the damage of a given force power).
One of the problem with integrating hero points into 3.5 or pathfinder was its not built into the system. I think the saga edition system is interesting because its built in. If you just staple it on (add to some rolls) it doesnt have the same feel.
That said I really like the two tiers of points, one for the save your butt or really dramatic moment section that are very limited in supply (one a character level, or a few per adventure) and a lower tier that lets you put small enhancements on abilities that are in a larger supply (similar to the number of hero points you get in ebberon).
Okay, here's how they're shaping up. I'm considering whether to just do these or also do Action Points.
Infamy Point Effects
Use an Infamy Point no more than once an encounter to:
1. Choose the result of any single roll
Attack, ability check, skill check, saving throw, caster level check, crit confirm...
2. Act out of initiative order
Move your usual turn up to "now"
3. Get an additional standard action
Usable whenever during your turn
4. Cast a bonus spell
Swap: You know but don’t have memorized today - uses a spell slot
Fork: You have already cast today - doesn't use a spell slot
5. Declare that a weapon or spell attack missed you
Anything that requires a hit roll
6. Throw off a condition (possessed, feared, paralyzed, charmed...)
For the rest of the encounter if it's a long term/perm thing
7. Use a feat or a class ability from one of your classes you don’t have
Have to qualify for the feat
For one round or one use, whichever comes last
8. Pull off a cool stunt automatically
But this isn't superheroes - limit it to what a human could arguably achieve
9. Other game effect on request
10. Limited narrative rewrite – introduce a story element, have someone show up at an opportune moment, have just the right piece of equipment around
You can also use an infamy point anytime to plain old avoid certain death, though there will likely be permanent impact of some kind (scarring/disability, equipment loss, other). You can use multiple infamy points in collaboration with the DM to add/change larger story elements, though the DM is usually up for interesting suggestions without spending points...
Gaining Infamy Points
Every character starts with two. You get one each time you level up and are awarded ones by the DM whenever you do something significantly badass which would add to your fearsome reputation. This does not have to be evil, it could as well be good, but should be impressive enough to get the commoners talking... "Did you see that guy slaughter everyone on the deck of that Chelish naval ship on his own?" "Did you hear those guys are the only survivors of an attack by a ghost ship full of unkillable skeletons; they blew up the ship to escape?"