Here in the U.S. several of the major news outlets, like NBC and BC are opennly specukating that today's bombing of the moon is a test for the bomb that has been devloped to take out Iran's nuclear reactors. President Obama just signed an appropriations bill tha would speed up the development and construction of th Massive Ordinance Penetrator, the weapon that Secretary Gates has openly said was inteded to use against Iran.
'And in todays news, Zombieneighbours found massive reassurance that his oppinion that sometimes americans really do make them selves look like morons, in a post by David Fryer. British sense of smuggness at all time high'
Come one David, if your going to put on the Tin Foil hat, atleast provide citations for the Bill and for Secretary Gates. I have trouble believing that America is at testing stage on a kinetic harpoon weapon system, because frankly, the real world isn't that cool.
PS. after having read up on MOP, i get to say that a, the real world isn't as cool as fiction, what a dull weapon system and B, Truely Epic science fail by you media..that is up their with a richard and judy science interview, which is the the footage to define what an epic science fail looks like.
It was a lot like when former Vice Presient Gore won for his work on global warming. While it was certainly admirableand maybe even deserving of on eof the Nobel science prizes, I dn't see how it has helped increase peace in the world.Al Gore ... Science ... you're joking right? His movie has been blasted, not only by people who think global warming/change is a fraud, but also those that believe it is real. Didn't his movie get kicked out of British schools or something because it was so flawed? Nope, I think even the Nobel committee isn't going to go that far and call Gore's work "science".
Frankly, i rather wish Al Gore had left the argument to scientist...that said, atleast he was more factually accurate, and less intentionally dishonest than Martin Durkin. Seriously...perhapes we should start a get a sort of global warming debate MAD going on here, you guys Don't mention Al Gore, and we won't mention 'the lieing peice of...mmm...Martin Durkin.'
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Come one David, if your going to put on the Tin Foil hat, atleast provide citations for the Bill and for Secretary Gates.
You asked. Both are mentioned in this article. Perhaps British smugness in't all it's crackered up to be. The Highlights.
The Defense Department had said in August it wanted to speed up production plans for the super bomb, asking Congress to shift funds to the project.
Congress approved the request and the Pentagon announced Friday it awarded McDonnell Douglas Corporation a 51.9-million-dollar contract to enable B-2 aircraft to carry the enormous MOP.
The United States has refused to rule out military action against Iran if diplomacy fails though President Barack Obama's administration has played down the possibility.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates said last month that a military strike against Iran would only "buy time" and delay a nuclear weapons program by about one to three years.
The earth-penetrating MOP is often cited as a potential weapon to take out Iran's underground centrifuge facilities in Natanz.
And just for good measure, Here is a similar article from UPI.
"The department has an Urgent Operational Need for the capability to strike hard and deeply buried targets in high threat environments," the request said, saying it had been approved by Central and Pacific commands. "The MOP is the weapon of choice to meet the requirements of the UON."
The MOP, a 30,000-pound bomb, has the capacity to strike targets buried 200-feet below ground. The Taliban, al-Qaida and Iraqi insurgents do not have facilities buried deeply below ground, but the Iranian nuclear facilities are buried.
Do i think the world would become safer? No, i am not stupid. I well understand the massive benifits that MAD continues to provide us all. If where to run both the most likely time lines against each other, i would almost certainly be more safe in the world with MAD tomorrow, next week, next month, next year and so one.In the other world, i'd loose wealth, or maybe gain it, i might personally die in war ect. It wouldn't be a nice place. But here is the thing, run the MAD time line long enough and the outcomes are far worse. Millions dies instantly, hundreds of millions more die in the after math, civillisation breaks down and frankly everything goes to s%@%.
MAD will eventually fail. Not because the maths is flawed, they are perfect, elegant and beautiful. The problem isn't with the game theory underpinning of MAD, but rather, it is with Humanity, we do not behave in the way that the player of MAD has to behave to be able to win.
Nope, never said you were stupid and it is quite obvious to me that you are not, just trying to get a better angle of where you were heading that's all.
I agree that MAD will probably fail some day, billions will die, but who ever pushes the button or turns the key, humanity will survive even through the nuclear winter. Even scientist claim if the same comet or meteor that killed the dinosaurs hits the earth, there would be significant loss of life but humanity would continue and of course thrown back into either the middle ages or before that.
Only mother nature or divine forces will destroy the earth and all of humanity.
Come one David, if your going to put on the Tin Foil hat, atleast provide citations for the Bill and for Secretary Gates.You asked. Both are mentioned in this article. Perhaps British smugness in't all it's crackered up to be. The Highlights.
The Defense Department had said in August it wanted to speed up production plans for the super bomb, asking Congress to shift funds to the project.
Congress approved the request and the Pentagon announced Friday it awarded McDonnell Douglas Corporation a 51.9-million-dollar contract to enable B-2 aircraft to carry the enormous MOP.
The United States has refused to rule out military action against Iran if diplomacy fails though President Barack Obama's administration has played down the possibility.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates said last month that a military strike against Iran would only "buy time" and delay a nuclear weapons program by about one to three years.
The earth-penetrating MOP is often cited as a potential weapon to take out Iran's underground centrifuge facilities in Natanz.
And just for good measure, Here is a similar article from UPI.
"The department has an Urgent Operational Need for the capability to strike hard and deeply buried targets in high threat environments," the request said, saying it had been approved by Central and Pacific commands. "The MOP is the weapon of choice to meet the requirements of the UON."
The MOP, a 30,000-pound bomb, has the capacity to strike targets buried 200-feet below ground. The Taliban, al-Qaida and Iraqi insurgents do not have facilities buried deeply below ground, but the Iranian nuclear facilities are buried.
My sense of british smugness is still doing pretty well, given that a MOP ways 608kg more than the Payload to GTO limit for LCROSS's launch vehicle, an Atlas V rocket. Hence my comment of EPIC SCIENCE FAIL by the american media.
Anderlorn, I think we are quite up to the task of exterminating ourselves.
The history of humanity proves that the only way to ensure peace is the possibility of mutually assured destruction. Going against nukes should provide the "Nobel War Prize," IMO.
History has proved nothing of the sort. What we have is an example of relative peace between major superpowers with ludicrous amounts of really dangerous explosives. Let's not even get into the proxy or "containment" wars that we fought with the Soviets and Chinese like Vietnam.
You may be able to infer that MAD may be conducive to a certain kind of peace between highly armed camps, but you can't really prove that's the only solution.
The history of humanity proves that the only way to ensure peace is the possibility of mutually assured destruction. Going against nukes should provide the "Nobel War Prize," IMO.History has proved nothing of the sort. What we have is an example of relative peace between major superpowers with ludicrous amounts of really dangerous explosives. Let's not even get into the proxy or "containment" wars that we fought with the Soviets and Chinese like Vietnam.
You may be able to infer that MAD may be conducive to a certain kind of peace between highly armed camps, but you can't really prove that's the only solution.
Nope there will never be one solution because of the dynamics of the humanity and the Universe.
Anderlorn, I think we are quite up to the task of exterminating ourselves.
We can try but I think we never could completely kill each other off or it would have happened already... :) We would not be at 6 billion people.
Andelorn,
If MAD is such a good solution and promotes peace, why are so many people opposed to Iran having nuclear weapons? If MAD was correct, letting them have nuclear weapons wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't use them. That's the whole theory of MAD.
MAD proved to be a workable model in a word dominated by 2 super powers/ideologies.
MAD will fail eventually in a more balkanized word with more and more players with more dangerous weapons.
The human race has never really failed to use a weapon it has developed on other humans.
Andelorn,
If MAD is such a good solution and promotes peace, why are so many people opposed to Iran having nuclear weapons? If MAD was correct, letting them have nuclear weapons wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't use them. That's the whole theory of MAD.
Simple, because they will use it on us or our allies and then we will have a nuclear war. Granted the US has used them in one war and almost twice with the Cuban missile crisis in which MAD actually worked in protecting our main land from a quick attack, we have not used them since then.
The heat stroked nut in Iran wouldn't think twice in using a special weapon (aka WMD) on us if his ego was challenged.
MAD has also worked for India and Pakistan.
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Andelorn,
If MAD is such a good solution and promotes peace, why are so many people opposed to Iran having nuclear weapons? If MAD was correct, letting them have nuclear weapons wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't use them. That's the whole theory of MAD.Simple, because they will use it on us or our allies and then we will have a nuclear war. Granted the US has used them in one war and almost twice with the Cuban missile crisis in which MAD actually worked in protecting our main land from a quick attack, we have not used them since then.
The heat stroked nut in Iran wouldn't think twice in using a WMD on us if his ego was challenged.
MAD has also worked for India and Pakistan.
So, you agree that MAD doesn't actually work then?
Andelorn,
If MAD is such a good solution and promotes peace, why are so many people opposed to Iran having nuclear weapons? If MAD was correct, letting them have nuclear weapons wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't use them. That's the whole theory of MAD.MAD proved to be a workable model in a word dominated by 2 super powers/ideologies.
MAD will fail eventually in a more balkanized word with more and more players with more dangerous weapons.
We can be sure it will fail, but you're right that the danger increases with the number of nuclear powers. You may have local balances of power governed by MAD, but how does that compare to states operating outside of that region?
MAD's a good deterent against being invaded, but nukes (and other WMDs) are not cheap to develop. Pakistan spent an ill-afforded fortune on their nukes and is now a country at risk of civil dissolution. Who's going to control those weapons if the poo really hits the fan? Would that money have been better spent building civilian services and infrastructure rather than the military?
And then you get oddball states like North Korea, with policy driven more by Kim Jong Il's rampant paranoias and juvenile posturing. They've had a deterent ever since the cease fire - Seoul within artillery range of North Korea. They don't need nukes and can't really afford them. Nor do they really care about keeping nuclear technology under any sort of control as their dealings with Pakistan illustrate.
The spread of nukes is simply bad news most of the time.
MAD will eventually fail. Nothing human lasts forever even the Pyramids and all of the Roman ruins will eventually turn to dust.
However, MAD has worked for the last 50 to 60 years.
"Greatest scientist in history", pfft! Name one good doomsday device he came up with.
He didn't make one. He revealed that nature, by causing creature populations to inexorably change into things completely different over time, IS one.
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Andelorn,
If MAD is such a good solution and promotes peace, why are so many people opposed to Iran having nuclear weapons? If MAD was correct, letting them have nuclear weapons wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't use them. That's the whole theory of MAD.
Let me add to waht Bitter Thorn said. There are two big problems with Iran having a nuclear capacity. One is their support of terrorist organizations around the world. There isno assurance that the government, or even a rouge element within the government, wouldn't supply nuclear weapons to those groups.
The other is that in order for MAD to be effective, both sides must have a desire for thier nation to be intact at the end of the day. As was reported by the U.K Telegraph in 2007, the cirrent regime in Iran is dedicated to the return of the 12th Imam which can only occur after a period of chaos and world wide war. Therefore, it is questionable whether MAD will work with Iran, because it is questionable whether the government at this time is all that concerned with having a population left when all is said and done. I mean consider this statement that was made after a plane crash killed 108 Iranian citizens.
What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow.
I agree that nukes are not the complete answer, nothing is, but to dismantle them before we have ray guns, star wars, or a replacement is ridiculous. Just because we are friends or who appears to be our friends one day may be our enemy the next and who is to stop them? Look at China beating their chest. What was that for? Not everyone can be trusted. Am I saying we should conquer the world and not have peace... absolutely NOT! We just need to find another way through peace and a military back-up before we purge MAD.
The only way to be safe is an in-depth plan. An peace in-depth and a defense in-depth plan.
I am sorry I do not have warm fuzzies that we can have an UFP or UFC right now. I hear you the ones that want peace, I want it too, but until things improve or the people of the world want to improve, you need your generals too. Shoot I rather want to feel free that I can travel the world and everyone will want to be my friend. I would love to have bridge or whatever connecting Russia and the US. Well through experience and the news, that is not the case at all.
Wasn't that Dr. Moreau Sebastian? ... lol
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He didn't make one. He revealed that nature, by causing creature populations to inexorably change into things completely different over time, IS one.
"Greatest scientist in history", pfft! Name one good doomsday device he came up with.No, sorry. If it does not have a dramatic timer or, at least, a big red button it does not qualify.
You are clearly a lesser species of Bill and you will be driven to extinction.
Somebody's been playing Russian roulette with a devolver.
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I agree that nukes are not the complete answer, nothing is, but to dismantle them before we have ray guns, star wars, or a replacement is ridiculous. Just because we are friends or who appears to be our friends one day may be our enemy the next and who is to stop them? Look at China beating their chest. What was that for? Not everyone can be trusted. Am I saying we should conquer the world and not have peace... absolutely NOT! We just need to find another way through peace and a military back-up before we purge MAD.
The only way to be safe is an in-depth plan. An peace in-depth and a defense in-depth plan.
Gee. That sounds like a justification for other countries seeking nukes,. After all, the US can't be trusted. Look at Iraq.
EDIT: To be clear, this is making the point that the argument cuts both ways, not that I ascribe to it. I'm just annoyed at people, mostly in America, saying how their nukes are for defence but everyone else's can only be because they're evil world-conquering maniacs, erather than to defend themselves. Look at Iran. It's two biggest enemies are nuclear powers. Two of it's neighbours are nuclear powers. It's other neighbours were just invaded by its enemies. If I was them, I'd be getting as many nukes as I could manage, too to make sure I didn't follow Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Darwin invented the "Devolver."
Davy Crockett rode his crocodile with the cannon tied to his head to his base and destroyed him; it's where he got his lightning gun to fight pirates with.
You're thinking of King Koopa. He invented the Devolver as shown in the fine documentary film "Super Mario Brothers." As a dinosaur fanatic, I thought you would know that.
But that part about Davy Crockett sounds right to me. That man kicked ass and took names.
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Darwin invented the "Devolver."
Davy Crockett rode his crocodile with the cannon tied to his head to his base and destroyed him; it's where he got his lightning gun to fight pirates with.You're thinking of King Koopa. He invented the Devolver as shown in the fine documentary film "Super Mario Brothers." As a dinosaur fanatic, I thought you would know that.
But that part about Davy Crockett sounds right to me. That man kicked ass and took names.
Don't believe me? It's all right
here.
Gee. That sounds like a justification for other countries seeking nukes,. After all, the US can't be trusted. Look at Iraq.
What nation can be trusted?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Don't believe me? It's all right
here.
I believe you about Davy Crockett, but not the devolver.
Fact: Hollywood movies are entirely accurate, and if a movie is based on a book, it only includes the factual elements of the book in question. The movie will remove all inaccurate elements rather than bring disgrace to the humble documentarians of Hollywood.
Edit: Also, that's a sweet website.
What nation can be trusted?
Gee. That sounds like a justification for other countries seeking nukes,. After all, the US can't be trusted. Look at Iraq.
Yah, Iraq has those horrible democratic elections and all. They even cover the voter fraud by dipping attached thumbs in ink! Unlike here in Illinois where if you're buried in Cook County, you vote alphabetically uniformly democratic ticket!
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Don't believe me? It's all right
here.I believe you about Davy Crockett, but not the devolver.
Fact: Hollywood movies are entirely accurate, and if a movie is based on a book, it only includes the factual elements of the book in question. The movie will remove all inaccurate elements rather than bring disgrace to the humble documentarians of Hollywood.
I'm channelling Ramtha.
Shirley Maclaine says Ramtha is a stone guru.Ramtha tole me about the whole Davy Crockett/Devolver thing; it's been covered up by the U.S. government during one of those kinda uninteresting presidents with a weird political party that were commies and danced around shaking and not having kids.
As to why,....I don't know; Ramtha wants me to find out though.
Hell, Ramtha isn't omniscient, he's a dead Atlantis guy.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm channelling Ramtha.
Shirley Maclaine says Ramtha is a stone guru.
Ramtha tole me about the whole Davy Crockett/Devolver thing; it's been covered up by the U.S. government during one of those kinda uninteresting presidents with a weird political party that were commies and danced around shaking and not having kids.
As to why,....I don't know; Ramtha wants me to find out though.
Hell, Ramtha isn't omniscient, he's a dead Atlantis guy.
That makes a lot of sense when you put it that way. Maybe King Koopa found Darwin's plans for the devolver and built his own. Can you ask Ramtha if Darwin's devolver used cheap looking CGI?
EDIT: To be clear, this is making the point that the argument cuts both ways, not that I ascribe to it. I'm just annoyed at people, mostly in America, saying how their nukes are for defence but everyone else's can only be because they're evil world-conquering maniacs, erather than to defend themselves. Look at Iran. It's two biggest enemies are nuclear powers. Two of it's neighbours are nuclear powers. It's other neighbours were just invaded by its enemies. If I was them, I'd be getting as many nukes as I could manage, too to make sure I didn't follow Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'll agree the US is no angel and a lot of times I do not believe in my government's directions that is why I am no longer in the two party system. Sure I want to be people's friends but I am not going to convert to Islam and they have to accept that. That is compromise, if they attack me for that reason, I personally would make sure they never were able to do it again but that's me - I don't play. And I ask you this, when I travel overseas why am I prejudged when they do not even know me. I do not prejudge them and since it is their country, I respect their culture. Not all Americans are the same just like everyone else
The problem is humanity, most with closed minds, no compromise, and it all equals failure. Getting along with anyone equals compromise just like a good marriage... :-)
And America is not the only problem. Other country's stuff stinks too.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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What nation can be trusted?Genosha!
Also, Narnia, probably. Isn't it ruled by a lion who is also Jesus? That seems like a good leader to me.
USA! USA! USA!
join in or be branded a traitor.
Jesus is American, duh. Even when he's really a lion and ruling a fantasy kingdom with an iron fist. And that makes everyone in that kingdom an American.
And, as long as we're talking traitors, which are you first: an American or a Texan?
Your move furface.
What nation can be trusted?Genosha!
Also, Narnia, probably. Isn't it ruled by a lion who is also Jesus? That seems like a good leader to me.
USA! USA! USA!
join in or be branded a traitor.Jesus is American, duh. Even when he's really a lion and ruling a fantasy kingdom with an iron fist. And that makes everyone in that kingdom an American.
And, as long as we're talking traitors, which are you first: an American or a Texan?
Your move furface.
For a pony, you sure talk a lot ... lol
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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For a pony, you sure talk a lot ... lol
What, you've never heard of a dog and pony show?
Heathy and I will be here all weeks folks, make sure to come for the matinee on Saturday! We'll even be holding a raffle and awarding a Nobel Prize in Wafflemaking and World Peace to the lucky winner!
I agree that nukes are not the complete answer, nothing is, but to dismantle them before we have ray guns, star wars, or a replacement is ridiculous. Just because we are friends or who appears to be our friends one day may be our enemy the next and who is to stop them? Look at China beating their chest. What was that for? Not everyone can be trusted. Am I saying we should conquer the world and not have peace... absolutely NOT! We just need to find another way through peace and a military back-up before we purge MAD.
The only way to be safe is an in-depth plan. An peace in-depth and a defense in-depth plan.
Gee. That sounds like a justification for other countries seeking nukes,. After all, the US can't be trusted. Look at Iraq.
EDIT: To be clear, this is making the point that the argument cuts both ways, not that I ascribe to it. I'm just annoyed at people, mostly in America, saying how their nukes are for defence but everyone else's can only be because they're evil world-conquering maniacs, erather than to defend themselves. Look at Iran. It's two biggest enemies are nuclear powers. Two of it's neighbours are nuclear powers. It's other neighbours were just invaded by its enemies. If I was them, I'd be getting as many nukes as I could manage, too to make sure I didn't follow Iraq and Afghanistan.
Iran can certainly make a reasonable argument for the value of nuclear weapons as a deterrent.
Once Iran is a nuclear power I imagine that they will have their own MAD stand off with Israel. I doubt it will end well.
For a pony, you sure talk a lot ... lolWhat, you've never heard of a dog and pony show?
Heathy and I will be here all weeks folks, make sure to come for the matinee on Saturday! We'll even be holding a raffle and awarding a Nobel Prize in Wafflemaking and World Peace to the lucky winner!
ROLLING
Thank you for the comic relief Sebast - the Jester of the Paizo boards.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Iran can certainly make a reasonable argument for the value of nuclear weapons as a deterrent.
Once Iran is a nuclear power I imagine that they will have their own MAD stand off with Israel. I doubt it will end well.
Two highly religious and ideological countries with nuclear weapons? How could it not end well? I anticipate a big dance party and lots of hookers and blow.
On topic: I too had a WTF moment when I read the news today. It is undeserved for the time being.
Action speaks louder than words.
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For a pony, you sure talk a lot ... lolWhat, you've never heard of a dog and pony show?
Heathy and I will be here all weeks folks, make sure to come for the matinee on Saturday! We'll even be holding a raffle and awarding a Nobel Prize in Wafflemaking and World Peace to the lucky winner!
AND a devolver gun.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thank you for the comic relief Sebast - the Jester of the Paizo boards.
What?!?! I'm the villian of the Paizo boards. Heathy's the hero of the people, CourtFool is the jester, and Callous Jack is the grotesque leper that disgusts everyone.
I recommend buying a program. You can't follow the show if you don't have a program.
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What nation can be trusted?Genosha!
Also, Narnia, probably. Isn't it ruled by a lion who is also Jesus? That seems like a good leader to me.
USA! USA! USA!
join in or be branded a traitor.Jesus is American, duh. Even when he's really a lion and ruling a fantasy kingdom with an iron fist. And that makes everyone in that kingdom an American.
And, as long as we're talking traitors, which are you first: an American or a Texan?
Your move furface.
I wasn't born here, though I got here as soon as I could.
Iran can certainly make a reasonable argument for the value of nuclear weapons as a deterrent.
Sure they do but I bet they will fire the weapon before the next time we do if we let them continue down their path.
Once Iran is a nuclear power I imagine that they will have their own MAD stand off with Israel. I doubt it will end well.
Yep once Israel tells them to go eat crow.
Israel will not think twice about turning the key as well.
In addition, if we do not end Iran's production, Israel is going to do it for the world. I bet they already have their mission plan ready. At least that was the old Israel.
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Thank you for the comic relief Sebast - the Jester of the Paizo boards.What?!?! I'm the villian of the Paizo boards. Heathy's the hero of the people, CourtFool is the jester, and Callous Jack is the grotesque leper that disgusts everyone.
I recommend buying a program. You can't follow the show if you don't have a program.
I alleys wanned ti be a hero.
Thank you for the comic relief Sebast - the Jester of the Paizo boards.What?!?! I'm the villian of the Paizo boards. Heathy's the hero of the people, CourtFool is the jester, and Callous Jack is the grotesque leper that disgusts everyone.
I recommend buying a program. You can't follow the show if you don't have a program.
That's right you are on the dark side of the force and a bad BBcoder (well at least that is what someone else stated anyway)... ;)