Advanced Player's Guide - Classes - Win me back!

[MerrikCale]

Thurgon wrote:

In all honesty I am far more interested in alternative class builds then in the new base classes. I want to be able to recreate the cleric and find fixes for the bard more then have new classes. However if the new classes work well with the game I am sure my group will try them out.

I love the idea behind the new classes myself. They seem very different in mechanics from the existing 11

However, I do agree that alternate builds is very appealing. The idea behind the Templar is a long time coming for example. Hopefully, we see a non-spell casting ranger or rangers with new combat paths. Lots more rage powers, rogue talents, etc

[Dennis da Ogre]

Supporting material past core can be frustrating to the people who don't have the material. Red Hand of Doom has a bunch of non-core classes on their NPCs, while the stat blocks are complete it is frustrating because they often don't really completely describe the classes, it's also impossible for a GM to adjust an NPC with classes they don't have the details for.

Putting material in other sources is frustrating too because now you have page count which is completely useless to you. For example I have Complete Mage which has tons of material on Warlocks (about 6 pages of PrCs alone plus powers) and I don't have to source material for the class. It also has a good number of Wu-Jen spells which are likewise wasted space for me.

I'm not suggesting that there be no support for the classes going forward, but it's quite irritating to have pages and pages of materials which you have limited or zero use for. I also know there are ways to integrate the new classes without adding page count (for example listing a class in a spell description or feat rarely adds page count or interfere with normal use). There has to be a balance somewhere.

I kind of suspect(hope) Paizo won't be releasing a bunch of supplemental material so a lot of this is moot but it's just something to keep in mind.

[kyrt-ryder]

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Supporting material past core can be frustrating to the people who don't have the material. Red Hand of Doom has a bunch of non-core classes on their NPCs, while the stat blocks are complete it is frustrating because they often don't really completely describe the classes, it's also impossible for a GM to adjust an NPC with classes they don't have the details for.

Putting material in other sources is frustrating too because now you have page count which is completely useless to you. For example I have Complete Mage which has tons of material on Warlocks (about 6 pages of PrCs alone plus powers) and I don't have to source material for the class. It also has a good number of Wu-Jen spells which are likewise wasted space for me.

I'm not suggesting that there be no support for the classes going forward, but it's quite irritating to have pages and pages of materials which you have limited or zero use for. I also know there are ways to integrate the new classes without adding page count (for example listing a class in a spell description or feat rarely adds page count or interfere with normal use). There has to be a balance somewhere.

I kind of suspect(hope) Paizo won't be releasing a bunch of supplemental material so a lot of this is moot but it's just something to keep in mind.

That's the thing Dennis, like I said earlier in the thread, Paizo seems intent on making their mechanics OGL, which means they will make it onto the PRD (or at least the fan version)

Which, in turn, means that they can publish material for non-core classes and those classes are always available to anybody. If they want the beautiful backstory and art and everything Paizo does so well they'll have to buy the sourcebook, but the baseline is there.

Honestly, it's a beautiful system. GM purchases adventure path, GM uses PRD to get the mechanics for the non-core class, and realizes that it's a great class and they want to know more. GM proceeds to purchase the sourcebook.

Everybody wins.

[Dennis da Ogre]

This is true, something which Wizard's didn't offer with their products. I hadn't really thought of that but I would be much less frustrated if there were a free version of the missing material available.

[xorial]

Something to remember, James or Jason said, that these classes are not CORE. They can be expected to show up in an AP, but not necessarily every AP that comes out after APG. From the discussion in the psionics thread, getting into an AP will be contingent on how easy it will be to reprint enough of a class in order for GMs that do not have the book to still effectively run an NPC. The NPC material is key. If a PC has the class, then that means SOMEBODY at the game table has access to the material. That won't be a problem. It is how effective the NPCs can be with what can be reprinted, without giving the material away.