Ok I think everyone could agree that the current spiked chain just isn't worth it, however I think many would agree that the old spiked chain may have been a bit much. So here is my thought on where to go to get a proper balance between then and now: Give it reach back and the ability to attack adjacent squares... and take away it's ability to threaten for AoO's.
There is precedent for this in the whip, and it would give back what made the spiked chain special without giving it an undue amount of power.
... Thoughts?
I just wish to voice my apathy for the spiked chain in general. It was silly before and it's not quite as silly now so I'm happy with how it is.
Your opinion has been noted, and documented. Thank you for your complete lack of help on this issue.
New record, off topic in two posts.
Puh-lease. I've seen threads where the OP went off topic halfway through the first post.
But back on topic:
If we accept that one of the things that "broke" the chain was the whole tripmachine issue, how does removing AoO's fix that?
Puh-lease. I've seen threads where the OP went off topic halfway through the first post.
But back on topic:
If we accept that one of the things that "broke" the chain was the whole tripmachine issue, how does removing AoO's fix that?
We aren't just removing AoO's however. By removing the threatening range we are removing half of the application of the "trip machine" effect. Even if you can be hit, you don't take the AoO so he can't trip you just for running away, disarming him without a feat, sundering the chain, casting a spell, et al. In addition whirlwind loses all it's power with the spiked chain since it requires a threatened area to work in. The spike chain wouldn't have a threatened area therefore couldn't be used with whirlwind. However the spike chain would offer something more than the heavy flail -- reach, and it still offers something more than a polearm -- adjacent attacks without a five foot step (something that isn't always possible), or switching out weapons. This in addition to doing everything the heavy flail does and being able to be finessed (a nice option but not worthy of turning a heavy flail exotic on its own).
Now the most trips you could get with the spiked chain would be equal to your number of attacks on a full attack, and even if you have greater trip you wouldn't get an AoO from tripping them since you don't actually threaten them.
This incidentally eliminates the "double reward" of full attacking and tripping on every attack since you don't get an immediate follow up AoO when you succeed.
If we accept that one of the things that "broke" the chain was the whole tripmachine issue, how does removing AoO's fix that?
Prevents the trip machine from also being a damage machine due to 3.5 Improved Trip granting an additional attack.
3.P version would need Combat Reflexes and Greater Trip and a high Dex (in addition to high Strength). To be honest I've got a hunch the problem was fixed twice. However, I really like Abraham's idea, both mechanically and for realism: chain fighting is inherently rhythmic. It can be fast, but it's very hard to make an attack you didn't plan for.
Edit 2: Okay, how's this: leave AoO's in. (They're generally realistic for the 5' range, you can adjust quickly enough for that.)
Although it is not a reach weapon, a spiked chain can be used to attack a target 10 feet away. This provokes attacks of opportunity as if you were attacking with a thrown weapon. You do not actually let go of the chain and cannot attack an enemy more than 10 feet away, but you can make trip or disarm attacks as normal at 10 feet. You do not threaten beyond 5 feet.
If you are wielding a spiked chain and attempt to demoralize an enemy with the Intimidate skill, you are treated as one size category larger.
I like Tejon's refinement quite a bit. The intimidate thing seems unnecessary (maybe a bonus to Dazzling Display, but it seems like the nunchakus would also need it, and it's probably not worth the hassle to keep track of it), but I like the idea that it's treated as a cross between a melée weapon and a whip. About my only concern before I house rule it is trying to decide if it should work with Lunge. If you don't explicitly deny it, it should work, but bypassing the AoO (by standing an extra 5' back and lunging) that you'd otherwise trigger seems a little more powerful than Lunge is really intended to be. But it's potentially also an issue with the whip (or trip/disarm/sunder attempts with other reach weapons), so it's probably not too bad. I just don't want to also have to house rule that you if you trigger AoO during a lunge you are treated as if you were in both your square and the next closest to your target or something. It's easy to end up with rule bloat pretty fast.
Ok I think everyone could agree that the current spiked chain just isn't worth it, however I think many would agree that the old spiked chain may have been a bit much. So here is my thought on where to go to get a proper balance between then and now: Give it reach back and the ability to attack adjacent squares... and take away it's ability to threaten for AoO's.
There is precedent for this in the whip, and it would give back what made the spiked chain special without giving it an undue amount of power.
... Thoughts?
That's pretty much the exact houserule I was planning on using, so you've got my vote at least. Thematically it makes sense, mechanically it makes sense, it gives spiked chain enough to make it interesting again as an exotic weapon without making it too good, just works, in my opinion.
Oh, and for those that can't stand the idea of a spiked chain (which based on the illustrations, is admittedly a little silly), just rename it Kyoketsu shoge/Meteor Hammer/Manrikigusari/Chain Whip/whatever lash/chain weapon equivalent you find appropriate to the setting and change the damage type to match.
... Thoughts?
Then you make the spiked chain significantly better than all the other exotic weapons again. Much better than the whip in any case. I say if you want to make the spiked chain better, make all the exotic weapons better. A tall order of course.
Personally I always thought that it didn't make sense that it was finessable. Chains are heavy and reactive. How about you take that away in exchange for what you give it. And increase damage on all other exotic weapons by 1 step (+1 dmg), except for the monk weapons. That would make things about balanced and other exotic weapons worth using.
Then you make the spiked chain significantly better than all the other exotic weapons again. Much better than the whip in any case. I say if you want to make the spiked chain better, make all the exotic weapons better. A tall order of course.
Personally I always thought that it didn't make sense that it was finessable. Chains are heavy and reactive. How about you take that away in exchange for what you give it. And increase damage on all other exotic weapons by 1 step (+1 dmg), except for the monk weapons. That would make things about balanced and other exotic weapons worth using.
I'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that the spiked chain, even with this change, would be significantly better than the other exotic weapons. The spiked chain does less damage than the one other two-handed exotic weapon, the Elven Curve Blade, and every single two-handed martial weapon (except the lance, which is a special case, as it's meant to be used while mounted, and in that circumstance is a one-handed weapon.)
I put together a quick table, showing all the martial and exotic two handed weapons, ranked by average damage (including bonuses from crits) and listing their special abilities. (I also added a quick wide or high crit note on weapons that have an abnormally large crit range or multiplier, and thus receive a larger than normal boost to damage from flat bonuses, as well as minimal crit note for weapons that only have x2 modifier on a 20, receiving 5% less damage from flat bonuses.)
Greatsword 7.7
Greataxe 7.15
Curve blade, elven 6.325, wide crit
Flail, heavy 6.05, disarm, trip
Glaive 6.05, reach
Halberd 6.05, brace, trip
Ranseur 6.05, disarm, reach
Falchion 5.75, wide crit
Greatclub 5.75, minimal crit
Scythe 5.75, high crit, trip
Guisarme 5.50, reach, trip
Chain, spiked 5.25, disarm, trip, minimal crit
As you can see, spiked chain is at the very bottom of the list and scales badly because of it's minimal bonus on crits. Even the Greatclub is a numerically better choice, and it's arguably the worst possible two-handed martial weapon you can choose.
Spiked chain was too good in the past because of the tricks you could pull using it's greater than normal reach, enlarge person, and improved trip. Allowing the spiked chain to attack at reach without threatening at reach gives it back something interesting, making it worth spending a feat on, but keeps people from pulling those same broken tricks by removing their ability to make attacks of opportunity at that distance.
I'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that the spiked chain, even with this change, would be significantly better than the other exotic weapons. ...
Simple. It would be, amongst all exotic weapons, the one on which the greatest number of people would spend a feat, possibly very close to the only one. It would be the only weapon that can disarm and trip at reach besides the whip, and the whip does non-lethal. It would be the super-whip. Apart from a few exceptions, the other people using exotics do so because they did not have to spend a feat, due to race or class.
Simple. It would be, amongst all exotic weapons, the one on which the greatest number of people would spend a feat, possibly very close to the only one.
Interesting claim, care to provide some justification as to why exactly you think everyone would trip over themselves to get it?
It would be the only weapon that can disarm and trip at reach besides the whip, and the whip does non-lethal.
Except, you know, for the Guisarme, which has reach, and can be used to disarm (as can all weapons), and can be used to trip, and does the same damage as a spike chain, but has a better critical multiplier, and unlike the proposed houserule for the spiked chain would actually threaten people at reach and could be used for things like Whirlwind Attack as a consequence. Oh, and it's a martial weapon, so no need to even spend a feat.
It would be the super-whip.
No, it would be a slightly variant Guisarme, threatening close instead of at Reach, but dealing less damage on a critical.
Apart from a few exceptions, the other people using exotics do so because they did not have to spend a feat, due to race or class.
Again, an interesting claim, but unless you have some way of supporting that conclusion you're just making things up.
I want to throw this out. Currently, I am toying with two options:
- 1. Leave the spiked chain as is in Pathfinder, but making it a monk. This gives them access to something that is roughly equivalent to the heavy flail.
- 2. Repalce it with the Surujin. In this version, the chain is a bludgeoning reach weapon, while the spike functions as a dagger in close combat.
Simple. It would be, amongst all exotic weapons, the one on which the greatest number of people would spend a feat, possibly very close to the only one.Interesting claim, care to provide some justification as to why exactly you think everyone would trip over themselves to get it?
It would be the only weapon that can disarm and trip at reach besides the whip, and the whip does non-lethal.Except, you know, for the Guisarme, which has reach, and can be used to disarm (as can all weapons), and can be used to trip, and does the same damage as a spike chain, but has a better critical multiplier, and unlike the proposed houserule for the spiked chain would actually threaten people at reach and could be used for things like Whirlwind Attack as a consequence. Oh, and it's a martial weapon, so no need to even spend a feat.
It would be the super-whip.No, it would be a slightly variant Guisarme, threatening close instead of at Reach, but dealing less damage on a critical.
Apart from a few exceptions, the other people using exotics do so because they did not have to spend a feat, due to race or class.Again, an interesting claim, but unless you have some way of supporting that conclusion you're just making things up.
I don't understand why you keep comparing the spiked chain to martial weapons and make arguments based on that, whereas my claim was in comparison to the other exotic weapons. This is why I compared it to the whip, why that comparison is valid and I'm not making things up, and why your guisarme comparison is irrelevant.
There are 2 separate issues here, and not distinguishing them clouds our discussion:
a) Exotic weapons vs martial weapons, a whole different can of worms
b) The balance of one exotic weapon vs other exotic weapons, where proficiency with some requires spending a feat and, for some it's given with a race or class. This is where the discussion of the new spiked chain belongs and should stay until issue a) is solved.
A good comparison is between the new spiked chain and the whip because they are the most similar exotics. Similarities between the "new" spiked chain and the whip: attack at range, trip, +2 disarm (which is what I meant by "can disarm", which I'll admit was not the correct way to say it). (Augh, the formatting didn't keep)
new spiked chain /// whip
2d4 lethal /// 1d3 non-lethal --- spiked chain wins
att. reach 10' /// att. reach 15' --- whip wins
doesn't provoke /// provokes --- spiked chain wins
finessable /// finessable --- even
threatens 5' /// doesn't threaten anywhere -spiked chain wins
two-handed /// one-handed
I hope that this handy summary makes it obvious that the new spiked chain is better than a whip, even if it requires two hands.
If you want to compare it to a dire flail, because both have the trip and disarm designation and are two-handed:
new spiked chain /// dire flail
2d4 lethal /// 1d8 --- spiked chain wins
normal /// double --- dire flail "wins"
att. reach 10' /// no att. reach --- spiked chain wins
finessable /// not finessable --- spiked chain wins
So the "new" spiked chain would be much better than the dire flail. Hence my statement, if you removed the finessable property, the "new" spiked chain would be more in line with the other exotic weapons. As a bonus it would even make sense, as a long chain is unwieldy.
As to why it would be the most common exotic on which people would spend a feat, from arguments I recall on the balance of exotics vs martial weapons, in theory for every exotic weapon needing a feat, except the whip and the new spiked chain, there's a combination of feat + martial or simple weapon that provides the same, equivalent or better benefit, or it's a rather strange and unpopular weapon (e.g., bolas). And we've established that the new spiked chain would be better than the whip. If you don't see that and want a weapon by weapon case study, I'm sorry but I don't have any more time today.
Edit: I guess I better add the dire flail to the list, as I can't see how to trip and have the +2 disarm on a non-exotic light weapon. However that's OK as the new spiked chain would be better than that too
Except, you know, for the Guisarme, which has reach, and can be used to disarm (as can all weapons), and can be used to trip, and does the same damage as a spike chain, but has a better critical multiplier, and unlike the proposed houserule for the spiked chain would actually threaten people at reach and could be used for things like Whirlwind Attack as a consequence. Oh, and it's a martial weapon, so no need to even spend a feat.It would be the super-whip.No, it would be a slightly variant Guisarme, threatening close instead of at Reach, but dealing less damage on a critical.
Apart from a few exceptions, the other people using exotics do so because they did not have to spend a feat, due to race or class.Again, an interesting claim, but unless you have some way of supporting that conclusion you're just making things up.
To answer you point by point:
1. The proposal is about the same as granting the feat "lunge" while using the spiked chain. Last time I checked, weapons that grant feats are expensive magical ones.2. The guisarme has reach, so what? It can't attack at close range. That's how reach weapons are balanced. Now try to get a variant guisarme approved, with which you can also attack at close range. Come back when it's in a PF official rulebook, good luck with that.
3. The critical multiplier of the guisarme (both are 20 to crit) is a very minor advantage.
4. Why do you seem to think that you couldn't use the "new" spiked chain for a Whirlwind Attack? Since when do you need to threaten an area to be able to do a Whirlwind Attack, as opposed to simply being able to attack there? If a whip can (see other thread) why couldn't the new spiked chain? You would hit opponents both at reach and in close range, which is a huge advantage over the guisarme.
5. The new spiked chain is much closer to a super-whip than the guisarme, because the whip has the same property of being able to attack both at close range and at reach, and it has both the disarm and trip designations. The guisarme only attacks at one distance, and doesn't have the disarm designation (yes, it can disarm anyway, let go of my throat please). No other weapon than the whip can do that now. If you insist on a martial weapon comparison, it's closer to a heavy flail +lunge, not a guisarme, due to the "disarm" designation.
I guess I also made up all the people complaining that exotic weapons aren't worth spending a feat on in terms of game mechanics -- the old spiked chain being the obvious exception. I must have dreamed them, that must be it.
Finally, here's a little table comparison because you like comparing the spiked chain to martial weapons (which, as I said, opens another can of worms, exotic vs martials):
Spiked chain /// Guisarme
x2 crit /// x3 crit --- Minor advantage guisarme
disarm /// no bonus --- spiked chain wins
trip /// trip --- even
close range /// reach --- Minor advantage guisarme
att.@reach /// can't attack at close range --- spiked chain huge win
finessable /// not --- spiked chain wins
3 wins for spiked chain, maybe the two minor advantages count as 1 win. Clear strong win for the new spiked chain if you don't take into account the exotic weapon feat. As you somewhat recoup the feat you spend on the exotic proficiency by getting lunge on that weapon, I'd say that the new spiked chain is slightly stronger than the guisarme even taking the exotic feat into account. And it's much stronger than other exotics.
I don't understand why you keep comparing the spiked chain to martial weapons and make arguments based on that, whereas my claim was in comparison to the other exotic weapons. This is why I compared it to the whip, why that comparison is valid and I'm not making things up, and why your guisarme comparison is irrelevant.
I was making the comparison for two reasons. One, to refute your point that the spiked chain, if changed in this manner would be overly powerful because it's the only weapon that could trip and be used to disarm at reach, it's not, the guisarme can also be used to do both. And two, to illustrate the relative balance of the spiked chain if this houserule was used, for which the Guisarme is a very close comparison (having the same base damage, reach, the ability to trip, etc.) but without the added cost of a feat, and with a better total damage due to it's critical modifier.
To answer you point by point:
1. The proposal is about the same as granting the feat "lunge" while using the spiked chain. Last time I checked, weapons that grant feats are expensive magical ones.
You mean like the Bastard Sword and Elven Curve Blade grant an equivalent ability to Monkey grip? Granting the rough numerical equivalent to a feat is old hat for exotic weapons, which conveniently cost a feat to use.
2. The guisarme has reach, so what? It can't attack at close range. That's how reach weapons are balanced. Now try to get a variant guisarme approved, with which you can also attack at close range. Come back when it's in a PF official rulebook, good luck with that.
Leaving aside the "Get something published or your argument doesn't count" idiocy, you do have a point that the Guisarme can't attack at close range. On the other hand, it also does more damage from crits and there are a number of options for bypassing the restriction on making close attacks (improved unarmed attack, for instance). It's still a weakness, but it's not exactly a stretch to say it's a weakness that's equivalent to the loss of the extra feat that a spiked chain would cost you to wield in it's place.
3. The critical multiplier of the guisarme (both are 20 to crit) is a very minor advantage.
That extra 1 to the threat multiplier is roughly a 5% boost in overall damage, and another 5% should the character have either Improved Critical or a keen weapon. +10% total damage isn't huge, but it's definitely a consideration.
4. Why do you seem to think that you couldn't use the "new" spiked chain for a Whirlwind Attack? Since when do you need to threaten an area to be able to do a Whirlwind Attack, as opposed to simply being able to attack there? If a whip can (see other thread) why couldn't the new spiked chain? You would hit opponents both at reach and in close range, which is a huge advantage over the guisarme.
Ah sorry, I should have spelled that out a bit more, I meant that it can't be used in the whole Whirlwind+Greater Trip+Combat Reflexes combo of doom that made the spiked chain a problem in 3.5.
5. The new spiked chain is much closer to a super-whip than the guisarme, because the whip has the same property of being able to attack both at close range and at reach, and it has both the disarm and trip designations.
While similar to the whip, it has enough differences to make comparisons to other reach weapons, or other two handed exotic weapons like the Curve Blade a much more valid comparison.
The whip is very much a novelty/one-trick weapon, designed for a specific purpose, and trying to use it as an example of what all exotic weapons should be balanced against is a bit of a strawman.
It would be like claiming the damage on a staff sling is broken because shuriken only deal 1d2.
The guisarme only attacks at one distance, and doesn't have the disarm designation (yes, it can disarm anyway, let go of my throat please). No other weapon than the whip can do that now. If you insist on a martial weapon comparison, it's closer to a heavy flail +lunge, not a guisarme, due to the "disarm" designation.
Yeah, Heavy Flail + 1 Feat is a fairly valid comparison, I'll admit. And since both examples require 1 feat, and provide very similar numerical benefits (though the flail, again, does much better damage) I don't see how that makes it unbalanced.
I guess I also made up all the people complaining that exotic weapons aren't worth spending a feat on in terms of game mechanics -- the old spiked chain being the obvious exception. I must have dreamed them, that must be it.
Most of the exotic weapons aren't that great, true, with a few specific exceptions (some of the double weapons and the Elven Curve Blade, for example). The current version of the Spiked chain sucks much, much more though, being at the bottom of the list both in terms of damage and in abilities. With the houserule, at least its a trade off, 1 feat for a slightly drop in damage but access to some interesting tactics.
Finally, here's a little table comparison because you like comparing the spiked chain to martial weapons (which, as I said, opens another can of worms, exotic vs martials):
Spiked chain /// Guisarme
x2 crit /// x3 crit --- Minor advantage guisarme
disarm /// no bonus --- spiked chain wins
trip /// trip --- even
close range /// reach --- Minor advantage guisarme
att.@reach /// can't attack at close range --- spiked chain huge win
finessable /// not --- spiked chain wins
I happen to disagree with your classification of the Guisarme's 5-10% damage advantage as minor, as well as the value of threatening reach versus threatening close. There are other feats and abilities that can allow you to overcome the Guisarme's lack of close attacks, and in terms of tactical advantage, reach weapons threaten far more area than close weapons.
Finesse is.. not a big issue for me. The really gamebreaking builds all used high strength, not dex, and even with Armor training, going the finesse route is subpar, since it's going to cost you 2 extra feats (Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers) and likely prevent you from using Power Attack effectively, one of the biggest boosts in damage available for melee characters.
I'd say the two weapons are much more evenly matched than you're presenting, both having 1 solid advantage over the other and 1 moderate. Except again, the Guisarme also leaves the character with an extra feat available. For losing a feat the Spiked Chain should be slightly better.
if "finesse is.. not a big issue" for you, then we could agree that by removing finesse from the proposed spiked chain, things will be close to balanced, no? So why are we arguing?
As for the crit multiplier, I verified the calculation and agree that it's a 5% damage increase. However, in actual numbers for a character with a +6 damage bonus (e.g., 22 str or 20 str and a +1 weapon) and a 50% chance to hit, that's only a +0.4 point of damage per attack. With a 10% chance to hit that's only + 0.07 points of damage. That's only a small fraction of the +2 that weapon specialization gives.
Alternatively, for a character that hits 50% of the time and regardless of the damage bonus, that's equivalent to +0.5 to hit on an attack roll. For a character that hits 10% of the time, that's equivalent to +0.14 to hit. So, it's a fraction, often small, of a +1 to hit, i.e., a small fraction of what a common feat, weapon focus, gives. Using a "feat" currency, that's a fairly small advantage compared to granting "Lunge".
I'm not sure why you think that the finesse route would "likely prevent you from using Power Attack effectively". Power attack in PF works on light and finessable weapons. It's one of the best % increase to dmg a finesse character can get.
I disagree that "the current version of the Spiked chain sucks much, much more". I'll agree it sucks, but about like most exotics, and to "prove" it, I've compared it to the double flail in a post you seem to have skipped and the spiked chain wins. I mean, you're right that this "new" spiked chain wouldn't be unbalancing to the overall game, and I never claimed it would be. My claim was that it was unbalanced compared to the other exotics. My point remains valid that it's unfair to the other exotic weapons. So if you improve the spiked chain, you should consider improving all exotics.
if "finesse is.. not a big issue" for you, then we could agree that by removing finesse from the proposed spiked chain, things will be close to balanced, no? So why are we arguing?
Meh, agreed, it could easily just be removed and hardly effect weapon balance, which was sort of my point. You had presented it as a major bonus of using the Spiked Chain, which I didn't feel the ability merits.
As for the crit multiplier, I verified the calculation and agree that it's a 5% damage increase. However, in actual numbers for a character with a +6 damage bonus (e.g., 22 str or 20 str and a +1 weapon) and a 50% chance to hit, that's only a +0.4 point of damage per attack. With a 10% chance to hit that's only + 0.07 points of damage. That's only a small fraction of the +2 that weapon specialization gives.
Alternatively, for a character that hits 50% of the time and regardless of the damage bonus, that's equivalent to +0.5 to hit on an attack roll. For a character that hits 10% of the time, that's equivalent to +0.14 to hit. So, it's a fraction, often small, of a +1 to hit, i.e., a small fraction of what a common feat, weapon focus, gives. Using a "feat" currency, that's a fairly small advantage compared to granting "Lunge".
Well, your numbers are very, very low, for starters. The average AC of opponents is roughly 13 + CR. Between BAB, Strength, Feats and escalating weapon bonuses most melee characters can quickly outstrip their opponents AC and end up with a 95% chance to hit on the majority of their attacks. (At which point, any additional bonuses to hit become meaningless and making the x3 critical + Imp. Critical a 9.5% increase in damage that multiplies the effect of feats like Weapon Spec and abilities like Weapon Training).
I'm not sure why you think that the finesse route would "likely prevent you from using Power Attack effectively". Power attack in PF works on light and finessable weapons. It's one of the best % increase to dmg a finesse character can get.
Good catch actually, I was still thinking 3.5 on that, where power attack would be limited by Strength Mod. You're right on this, Power Attack now is usable for high dex characters, with just a minor investment in Strength. (Of course, the same character could do much more damage just by switching Dex and Strength, and end up with an extra two feats. Just saying.)
I disagree that "the current version of the Spiked chain sucks much, much more". I'll agree it sucks, but about like most exotics, and to "prove" it, I've compared it to the double flail in a post you seem to have skipped and the spiked chain wins.
The Double Flail is a very, very bad comparison to the Spiked chain, for starters. Double weapons in general are. I addressed your arument by making better comparisons to other two handed, exotic weapons and two handed, reach weapons with trip, which are much closer to the current and proposed spiked chain. (Though I could have made that more clear I suppose).
If you insist though, I'll address it more specifically here.
new spiked chain /// dire flail
2d4 lethal /// 1d8 --- spiked chain wins
Well except the Dire Flail is a double weapon, which really makes comparing the damage values completely meaningless (it would be like arguing that the Greatsword is unbalanced because it has better damage than the Shortsword). If you do want to compare damage totals though, you might want to include both hands, since the person weilding the direflail will get extra attacks.
2d4 (x4) vs. 1d8 (x7) gives them a based damage output of 20 and 31.5, with the dire flail well ahead. Even on a single attack, the Spiked Chain is only .5 points of average damage ahead, not exactly a huge boost.
normal /// double --- dire flail "wins"
Agreed, and probably best to include that bit along with the damage, instead of making it it's own point. (see above)
att. reach 10' /// no att. reach --- spiked chain wins
Except, the argument I was making wasn't about the houseruled spiked chain it was whether or not the old spiked was considerably worse than most other exotic (and even most martial) weapons. Comparing the old spiked chain to the dire flail, it's a tie, as neither has reach.
finessable /// not finessable --- spiked chain wins
Arguable, since the Double weapon quality says you fight with it as if it was a One Handed and Light weapon, but since it's unclear, I'll give you this one.
I mean, you're right that this "new" spiked chain wouldn't be unbalancing to the overall game, and I never claimed it would be. My claim was that it was unbalanced compared to the other exotics. My point remains valid that it's unfair to the other exotic weapons. So if you improve the spiked chain, you should consider improving all exotics.
Considering the points above about Double Weapons, I disagree. It's not even unbalanced compared to most martial weapons, let alone exotics.
So addy, what do you think of my version? Is provoking for the 10' attack enough of a drawback?
So addy, what do you think of my version? Is provoking for the 10' attack enough of a drawback?
I like it a lot. It makes the spiked chain more interesting, more effective without being too attractive to powergamers, and it makes the mechanics work more like the cross between the whip and the flail that it is. Nice flavor too with the intimidate. Perhaps some other exotics could have the same effect because they're so unusual.