Hey everyone,
I've been watching some movies again and was inspired to make a class devoted to telekinesis. I've always always been a fan of tk, so it was fun to make what I have.
Please critique it as best you can. I want this to be balanced and not too powerful, though I don't think it is.
Looks good, kinda comes across as a psionic-warlock. I'd think about giving it a few more high level abilities though, partly to pad it out, and partly to help give it a little more of an edge at the higher levels.
What I might do is ease the levitation abiity at 10th level and maybe grant an improved version just a few levels later, it might be a bit much at 10th level.
Other than that, looking good.
Cool, thanks for the feedback!
No other feedback?
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That's actually a pretty nifty class man, does everything you could hope to do with a TK specialist. While I can understand the game reasons for the 'special qualities' to the TK I just can't think of a good in game reason for it.
How about instead giving them different energy qualities?
(Fire, Cold, Electricity or Sonic), energy damage bypasses damage reduction (but not energy resistance) and would make more sense from a simulationist perspective. Plus it has a place in the lore of psychokinetics - pyrokinesis, cryokinesis, electrokinesis and sonikinesis).
Levitation is a little bit too good, the closest ability I can find is the Celestial bloodline sorcerer - Wings of Heaven which lets them fly for a number of minutes per day equal to their sorcerer level. That's a good baseline to go off -
Levitation (Su): At 10th level the Mover gains the ability to float aloft on his own power and may fly for a number of minutes per day equal to his mover level, with a speed of 60 feet and good manoeuvrability. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.
I'm a fan of simplifying mechanics so rather than having Nova Burst allowing the Mover to make different attacks on everyone within reach instead consider something like this:
Nova Burst (Su): Beginning at 5th level you are able to, as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, attack all creatures within 30 feet of you with a mind thrust. Roll one attack and compare it against every enemy as normal and deal damage accordingly, with all modifiers applying as normal.
Nova burst may only be used once per encounter, and no more than once every five minutes.
(I say one attack as I basically picture it as a sphere of energy blasting outwards, but in an uncontrolled burst of energy).
Then you could have a feat:
Selective Burst
Even when letting loose with your power you are still able to maintain some semblance of control.
Prerequisite: Intelligence 13+
Benefit:When you use your Nova Blast you may ignore a number of targets equal to your Intelligence Modifier. This includes your Improved Nova Blast and Improved Nova Manoevure
Also you have three "dead levels" between 17 and 19, some abilities to consider in these levels:
17 - Improved Nova Burst (Su): Your Nova Blast now extends to 60 ft.
18 - Nova Manoeuvre (Su): You may use one use of your Nova Blast to make a combat Manoeuvre against every target in your Nova Blast range. You make a single Combat Manoevre check against every creature in range.
19 - Nova Burst Blast (Su): When you use your Nova Blast you also get a free Combat Manoeuvre of your choice to add to the blast, make a single Combat Manoeuvre roll and compare it against the CMD of every target in range.
One final thing, why does this class gain the occasional Fighter Bonus Feat? I can understand the Improved and Greater Combat Manoeuvre feats (but do they apply to telekinetics? I'd probably rule they do just so you don't have to make a mess of new feats), but things like Vital Strike and Improved Critical don't make as much sense. In any case you may want to make a special feat list for the mover.
This might seem like a lot of feed back, but only because I like the idea of a TK user that works like a warlock so verah, verah much. Your class "as is" is useable in PFRPG I feel comparatively to other classes, but with some tweaks and adjustments will fit the flavour and lore of a psychokinetic character perfectly.
Wow, thanks for the feedback!
For the reflex and will, I kept seeing them as a sneaky type with a powerful mind.
I really really hate minutes pe day abilities, because I cant ever remember how much I've used. However, I'll try to make it in line. I kept thinking of Favored Soul as a base for some of the abilities, oddly.
I don't quite understand what you mean by elemental resistances? Could you explain?
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If a monster has Energy Resistance they ignore some damage from energy of a certain type.
Energy Immunity On the other hand means a creature takes no damage from a certain energy type and double damage from an opposing type (fire elementals take double damage from cold for example).
In any case Telekinesis works better as a sort of energy have them choose an energy type at 14th level (fire, cold, electricity or sonic). If they want additional energy types they can take a feat:
Psychokinetic Energy
You can add an additional type of energy to your Mind Thrust.
Prerequisite: Mover level 14+
Benefit: Choose either Fire, Cold, Electricity or Sonic, once per turn you may replace the damage type of your Mind Thrust with your chosen energy type.
Oh, I hadnt thought of that. I do like it.
I updated it a little bit.
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Still see Reflex as a favoured save, but nothing that seems to suggest Movers are particularly dodge worthy. Actually I'm seeing quite a few rogue dips - Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device and Stealth?
Why are these important to the Mover? It seems to me if a mover needs to climb something he'd just stack nearby objects to reduce the DC. Or to Disable a Device he'd pull it apart telekinetically, these are skills that would all work better as Cross Class skills.
A more appropriate class list would probably look like this:
Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Lingusitics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis).
Since this class doesn't have the versatility of a sorcerer or wizard 4 + Int mod skills is fine, and if they want more roguish or atheletic skills they can cross-class. It just seems that someone focused on the power of the mind would have Disable Device or Climb as a class skill.
The class needs focus and while the image of someone picking a lock or disabling a trap with a judicious use of their telekinesis is cool, it should be reserved for someone willing to put ranks in the cross-class skill or dip into rogue.
I really like this class because the core ability is something that I could see players getting very creative with, but putting too much in dilutes the concept.
Hey everyone,
I've been watching some movies again and was inspired to make a class devoted to telekinesis. I've always always been a fan of tk, so it was fun to make what I have.
Please critique it as best you can. I want this to be balanced and not too powerful, though I don't think it is.
I think it's broken. Reasons:
A flat +7 shield bonus is abuseable for what is not a melee class. (You will find some unhittable armor classes at higher levels).
I'm not aware of any precedent for 'encounter powers' which this class has
The addition of the ability to perform combat maneuvers at no risk is essentially handing the class five (or more) free feats.
A flat +7 shield bonus is abuseable for what is not a melee class. (You will find some unhittable armor classes at higher levels).
I'm not aware of any precedent for 'encounter powers' which this class has
The addition of the ability to perform combat maneuvers at no risk is essentially handing the class five (or more) free feats.
The shield bonus is as much as a +5 heavy shield. Now, the only issue with this is availability, because +5 anything could potentially be rare depending on the campaign. However, it's really cheap. I don't think this breaks anything, considering a soulknife gives you a +9 weapon for free.
I encourage you to read the book of nine swords, one of books Wizards used to help design 4e (even if I don't like 4e.) It's one of my favorite books of all time.
And yes, that's the point: To give the class telekinesis. TK has some advantages.
Thanks for your comments.
Still see Reflex as a favoured save, but nothing that seems to suggest Movers are particularly dodge worthy. Actually I'm seeing quite a few rogue dips - Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device and Stealth?
Why are these important to the Mover? It seems to me if a mover needs to climb something he'd just stack nearby objects to reduce the DC. Or to Disable a Device he'd pull it apart telekinetically, these are skills that would all work better as Cross Class skills.
A more appropriate class list would probably look like this:
Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Lingusitics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis).
Thanks for the feedback. When I was designing this class I had in mind an expert who used telekinesis to help his skills. Thus, he doesn't have much martial training or armor training, he has way less skills then other experts and has some special aptitude to assist him.
Honestly I feel this class is underpowered, but that's a trade off from being so specialized. Honestly, the only thing that throws me off are the fighter bonus feats... I just don't want to go through and make up a new list.
Made a few changes. check them out.
After having a closer look, I think the AC bonus might be a bit much. For one, it provides a +7 bonus by 12th level, which can be quite a bit. A monk, for instance, is a class famous for a high AC at the higher levels, and even the monk doesn't have such a high bonus.
I'd probably reduce it a little, maybe even give it the same progression as the monks. Also remember that whilst this abiilty requires a hand to use, the Mover doesn't require the hand for other tasks, even attacks. Besides, it does come off as a class that should stick to the back and rely on meatsheilds to take the brunt.
I like the deflection idea, maybe expand a little on it? Allowing the mover to deflect multiple arrows or a bonus on the roll to use it (since, being based on attack rolls, it won't usally match archers shooting at the mover).
I can conceded to the monk argument. I'll take a closer look at it.
In the meantime I'd like some help with the wording on this ability. I've altered the way telekinesis works thematically, and I want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything. Please take a read through and see if there's anything that I missed in regards for balance and nonsensical reading.
Telekinesis (Su): You gain two invisible floating hands that act as if they were your own. They cannot be hurt or taken away in any manner short of an antimagic field, nor can they be seen by anything less than true seeing. For all intents and purposes these extra floating hands can do whatever you are able to do with your normal hands, within the weight limits set by your maximum force load. They always act on your initiative, just like your normal hands. If they enter an antimagic field they are suspended until you leave the effect, then resume as normal.
Your telekinetic hands must stay within 5 feet per class level of you at all times. If, for some reason, they are brought outside that range they disappear and immediately reappear in your square. Your hands have a movement rate equal to 10 feet per class level, with perfect maneuverability.
You are considered proficient with your extra hands, and are considered to have improved unarmed strike with them. You may use them in the following ways. Your save DC for attacking with them is 10 + ½ your base attack modifier + your intelligence modifier. If you are ever called to make an attack with them, use your class level + your intelligence modifier unless otherwise noted.
Sustained Force: Your hands move an object weighing no more than your maximum force load up to 30 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The effect ends if the object is forced beyond the range.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand normally. Alternatively, you may divide your maximum force load by half and use two hands to manipulate your world around you as if you had extra hands available to you. This action requires a move action to begin, and a swift action to continue each round.
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don't provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your class level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and you add your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. No save is allowed against these attempts. This action requires a standard action.
Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the you can hurl one object or creature per level that are within range and all within 15 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of your maximum force load. This action requires a standard action.
You must succeed on one attack roll to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier. Weapons cause standard damage (with your intelligence bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Damage caused in this manner is capped at 10d6, no matter what is used. Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
Creatures that fall within the weight capacity of the effect can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell.
If a creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage equal to 1d6 per 10 feet thrown.Mind Thrust (Su): You have also learn to use your telekinetic hands to cause damage, both by using them directly, and by holding weapons with them. You can strike with both versions of this ability at ranged, within your normal telekinetic limits described above.
These hands use the same rules as your telekinetic hands above. An unarmed telekinetic strike has its own damage table, as described above under ‘Mind Thrust’ which starts at 1d6 points of physical damage + intelligence modifier, plus an additional 1d6 as shown on the table. This damage caps out at 6d6 at level 15. Since this is physical damage, even though it’s from a magical source, damage reduction applies as normal. Each unarmed strike can count as piercing, slashing or bludgeoning, chosen when the attack is made.
Alternatively, you may use a weapon at range, within the normal limits of your telekinetic power listed above. You must be proficient with your weapon, just as if you were using them with normal hands. Use all normal rules when using weapons at range, except for the following. When using this ability use your intelligence bonus instead of strength or dexterity on attacks and damage. You can still be disarmed of your weapon, but may pick it up as normal with your extra hands as if you were physically picking it up.
At 7th level your mind thrust is considered magic for bypassing damage reduction.
At 11th level your mind thrust is considered aligned to your alignment, allowing you to bypass damage reduction of your alignment.
At 14th level your mind thrust can take on any property needed to bypass damage reduction of an enemy. Once per round you may choose a type of damage reduction to bypass (silver, cold iron or adamantine). This feature lasts until the beginning of your next round, and requires a swift action to apply.
Basically, I'm thinking instead of a weight limit, just give the extra hands it's own strength score based on either intelligence + level, or just plain level.
The shield bonus is as much as a +5 heavy shield. Now, the only issue with this is availability, because +5 anything could potentially be rare depending on the campaign. However, it's really cheap. I don't think this breaks anything, considering a soulknife gives you a +9 weapon for free.
I encourage you to read the book of nine swords, one of books Wizards used to help design 4e (even if I don't like 4e.) It's one of my favorite books of all time.
And yes, that's the point: To give the class telekinesis. TK has some advantages.
Thanks for your comments.
I am aware of the Book of 9 Swords, and I'm sure you're away of the controversial issue regarding the book and it's rules.
It was a part of the 3.5 ruleset, and you'll note that Pazio did *not* adapt it's conventions for Pathfinder. Since you are creating a Pathfinder prestige class, I was reading the class under the assumption that you were writing it for Pathfinder, not as a 3.5 Prestige Class that's compatible with Pathfinder.
As far as the advantages go, is there another class with an ability that gives you 4 free feats at first level, in addition to the other slew of powers you get with the class? And what's more allows you to perform combat maneuvers at *range*.
If you're looking for this class to share an efficacy level with other classes, then as written it seems exceedingly powerful. I would not let a player play it in my campaign.
This doesn't mean it's un-fixable - the powers could be staggered, less could be dumped all on the first level, and you could stick to Pathfinder conventions. We'll see how it turns out. I wouldn't have commented on it if I didn't find it interesting.
I can conceded to the monk argument. I'll take a closer look at it.
In the meantime I'd like some help with the wording on this ability.
As a suggestion, there are two classes in particular with excellent examples for how to handle a broad power 'theme' without dumping it all at first level.
Like a rogue talent or barbarian rage ability, give a TK power once every two levels, and split them all off. One for each feat, one for each usage. Then you can make more powerful ones with prerequisites, players get to design *their* TK user, and you address all the issues in my original post.
Your list already models that sort of power selection.
-Campbell
Looking over the proposed ability above, one thing does spring to mind. Can these "hands" be used to hold magic items (For instance, hold additional rings or carry potions or some such?) If not, I'd add a bit of text saying that they act as a rush of force, so aren't capable of carrying such things or somthing along those lines.
Looking over the proposed ability above, one thing does spring to mind. Can these "hands" be used to hold magic items (For instance, hold additional rings or carry potions or some such?) If not, I'd add a bit of text saying that they act as a rush of force, so aren't capable of carrying such things or somthing along those lines.
Good thinking. They can't carry more magic items, as your amount of slots are conformed, even if you had extyra real hands you only get two ring slots.
As I see it I don't think there's a problem letting someone carry things with their hands so long as they realize it takes some minscule amount of concentration and energy.
I can conceded to the monk argument. I'll take a closer look at it.
In the meantime I'd like some help with the wording on this ability.As a suggestion, there are two classes in particular with excellent examples for how to handle a broad power 'theme' without dumping it all at first level.
Like a rogue talent or barbarian rage ability, give a TK power once every two levels, and split them all off. One for each feat, one for each usage. Then you can make more powerful ones with prerequisites, players get to design *their* TK user, and you address all the issues in my original post.
Your list already models that sort of power selection.
-Campbell
I could go along with that. What do you have in mind? I Was under the impression that the weight limit was good enough to be used at lower levels, and didn't need more limitation.
Okay, I've updated the rules a little more.
I could go along with that. What do you have in mind? I Was under the impression that the weight limit was good enough to be used at lower levels, and didn't need more limitation.
You've already done most of the work, and this allows you to add even more TK type powers.
Give the class a 'Mover talent' at second level or whatever you want to call it. Copy the text from the rogue talents or Barbarian rage power list for picking one every time the class gets a 'Mover Talent'. Give them one every other level.
You already have the base of your talent list.
Sustained Force
Force Bull Rush
Force Disarm
Force Grapple
Force Trip
Violent Thrust
Deflection
Nova Burst
Levitation
Spell Stop
Power of the Mind
Come up with some more powers. The Force Bull Rush is still better than the standard bull rush, because A) you can do it at range and B) it still doesn't take up a feat slot.
Even as is, this class seems overpowered, but if it were designed like this, I'd be much more likely to allow it.
I would also rewrite Nova Burst to remove the encounter power bit. 3.p uses x/day or x/rounds or other verbage.
I still think it needs a lot of work, but there's something here.
I'm really interested to see why you think it's overpowered. Does it just feel over powered? If you haven't take a look at the newest revision: I've made some changes, even based on what you said.
I'm going for a fighter/expert that specializes in telekinesis. Thus, he isn't going to have much in the way of spells, but he has some utility. I don't want him to be over powered at all, but different and specialized -- yes. I've given up a lot of versatility to specialize purely in moving things with my mind.
Thanks!
I'm really interested to see why you think it's overpowered. Does it just feel over powered? If you haven't take a look at the newest revision: I've made some changes, even based on what you said.
I'm going for a fighter/expert that specializes in telekinesis. Thus, he isn't going to have much in the way of spells, but he has some utility. I don't want him to be over powered at all, but different and specialized -- yes. I've given up a lot of versatility to specialize purely in moving things with my mind.
Thanks!
Several reasons. The class is front loaded. The talent method spaces it out.
You are underestimating the power of the ability to do CMB's at no risk to yourself at range. It is a hugely powerful ability.
First, if I'm not of this class, I have to take the feat to avoid the AOO. I don't have to do this here.
Second, no matter what class, I have to put myself at risk in order to control the battlefield. I have to risk being grappled, or putting myself next to an opponent on a bull rush, or dropping my weapon on a trip attack (or being tripped myself!).
Here I get all this AOO attacks for free and all at once. Not something that any other class even comes close to matching.
Third, there's a format and method for base class construction in Pathfinder. Your class looks like a 3.5 class, not the way the classes are defined in the base book.
Fourth, Two good saves?
I'm saying you give *more* utility. *more* powers. *more* variety. In the format of Pathfinder. Let the players pick their powers. I don't think those 4 CM abilities are overpowered if they pick them over 8 levels (just like the fighters have to do).
Also: it would be nice if you put this on a web page so I didn't have to keep downloading files.
I've changed quite a bit, now. Made some talent like alterations. I'm having some trouble wrapping my mind around giving him any more psionic powers, because I don't want him to be a mage or psion, but more of an expert/fighter.
Haha, sorry. I guess I could put it up on the web page.
You really need to fix the layout of your table. Currently, the table is so skinny that you can't even fit a two-digit number on one line in the Level column and the titles of the save columns also break across lines. This looks very bad aesthetically and uses up lots of extra space when you don't need to do so.
You really need to fix the layout of your table. Currently, the table is so skinny that you can't even fit a two-digit number on one line in the Level column and the titles of the save columns also break across lines. This looks very bad aesthetically and uses up lots of extra space when you don't need to do so.
Hmm, I use Office 2007. I'll convert it to a web page so everyone can see it properly.
Then simply either expand the margins of your page and/or widen the columns of your table. Either way, it's a really simple fix which makes everything look so much better.
(I work in magazine design, layout and proofreading. Does it show?) :)
Then simply either expand the margins of your page and/or widen the columns of your table. Either way, it's a really simple fix which makes everything look so much better.
(I work in magazine design, layout and proofreading. Does it show?) :)
Strange, because it looks fine on my screen.
[deleted]
Thanks everyone for the help.
I've revised the class a bit. Same Download:
http://www.neceros.com/files/ClassMover.rtf
Hi.
I'm liking this a lot better. Two things jump out after my first reading. I'd make it explicit that the CMB bonuses do *not* work at range. I've sort of decided that they way they are currently being handled is fine as long as you have to be adjacent as normal.
The other thing I noticed, is I'd make it explicit that the increased damage from the feat doesn't stack with aggressive mindset.
I still have some concerns over the relative power level of the class - I'd prefer it hew as close to fighter in average damage as possible. But as written, I'd sure give it a shot. :-)
P.S. I'd also add about 20 new talents to select. No way would I want someone to just have them all by level 20. There are other things that are minor issues, but I'd be willing to play or allow this class now.