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I loved PF1 bards. I would've played one in every game if I could've gotten away with it.
I haven't had the chance to play a PF2 one, since I'm running all the games. And a player for my upcoming game chose a bard as her character. And I got to looking at them.
They get a healing spell that is a better single-target heal than clerics even get!
And if they make it their signature spell to spontaneously heighten? Forgetaboudit!
Combine that with giving allies a +1 to hit and damage with inspire courage.
My conclusion is that, when I can be a player again, I'm going to play a bard in every game that I can get away with it.
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2E bards are pretty rad.
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They get a healing spell that is a better single-target heal than clerics even get!
1d10+4 for soothe vs 1d8+8 for heal... Not sure I'm seeing the better.
IMO, bards are ok healers but there isn't any way they are knocking clerics off the top of the healing ladder. That's not to say they aren't cool in other areas but they aren't OMG healers.
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I loved PF1 bards. I would've played one in every game if I could've gotten away with it.
I haven't had the chance to play a PF2 one, since I'm running all the games. And a player for my upcoming game chose a bard as her character. And I got to looking at them.
They get a healing spell that is a better single-target heal than clerics even get!
And if they make it their signature spell to spontaneously heighten? Forgetaboudit!
Not exactly.
Spontaneous Healer clerics get up to 3 free Heal spells starting out compared to any other class, which usually only have 3 spell slots to begin with (barring cantrips), scaling with the amount of Charisma they have. Even without allocating any more slots, this is more healing than any other class in the game could hope to accomplish. And if you're a blaster cleric, those free Harm slots are pretty strong for you as well (since you don't need an attack roll in addition to a save anymore!).
Next, let's compare the spell results. Soothe does a d10+4, yields a maximum of 14, average 9.5 (or 9) HP. Not bad, same average as Trained Battle Medicine. However, Heal does a D8+8, yields a maximum of 16, average 12.5 (or 12) HP. This scaling increases per spell level, meaning on average, Heal will grant up to 30 more average HP per slot compared to Soothe. Sure, Soothe has the +2 bonus versus emotion/mental/whatever effects (useful for fear effects and other such things), but it doesn't stack with Inspired Defense and other such abilities, and is a pretty niche benefit in comparison.
Additionally, Heal has the option to go with 1 action (Not the best here, but amazing for those Negative Spontaneous clerics who want to burst an enemy down quick, since they don't get the +8 to damage rolls), or 3 actions (potentially healing more than the two action depending on how many targets are affected, and can deal damage to undead enemies at the same time), whereas Soothe does not have those benefits.
Furthermore, Clerics get feat synergies which make them heal (or damage!) even more, upgrading the slots they expend to be of the same dice as Soothe (D10s), equating to an additional HP per spell slot level on average.
With all of that factored in, Clerics (and by relation the Heal spell) are still much better healers than Bards. But Soothe is still a useful spell, and Composition cantrips are still so universally wanted that Bards are strong enough in their own right.
Clerics are much better healers end of story. (I'm currently playing a Bard and I can tell you that)
Final thought: Bards have their own issues like any other class believe me, they are far from perfect, but I don't have enough time to get into that at the moment. Best of luck.
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Well, bards have it pretty good this edition. Inspire Courage became a lot more powerful because a +1 to hit is now more powerful. It's a bonus you can spam, unlike almost everyone else who needs to spend daily resources to give something like that. I think that makes it comparable to cleric healing being a game-changer.
And their spell list grew some teeth with stuff like Magic Missile, you don't have to be helpless against mind-immune enemies anymore. Also, fewer enemies are mind-immune.
But they get the +2 vs mental effects that can be sustained for a minute.
Okay, so situationally better.
I still say they're awesome.
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Well, bards have it pretty good this edition. Inspire Courage became a lot more powerful because a +1 to hit is now more powerful. It's a bonus you can spam, unlike almost everyone else who needs to spend daily resources to give something like that. I think that makes it comparable to cleric healing being a game-changer.
And their spell list grew some teeth with stuff like Magic Missile, you don't have to be helpless against mind-immune enemies anymore. Also, fewer enemies are mind-immune.
I definitely agree that bards are good characters this edition.
But I think they were just about as good in PF1.
In PF1, once one got past the earliest levels, one could keep bardic song up just about indefinitely (lingering performance helps but wasn't totally essential). And, of course, their bonus went up without further investment. With some really cool magic items to help them.
And they got some of the other nice things for free (bardic knowledge, versatile performance). With lots of archetypes to give lots of flexibility. At least right now, bards are less flexible both in a "what can some bard build do" way AND in "what can this ONE bard do" way.
And, depending on build, one could be a reasonable archer or fighter on the side. Not great but reasonable. Probably better than in PF2 due to action economy issues.
PF1, being more optimizable, also allowed you to pretty much get as silly with the social skills as you wanted (as somebody who routinely had silly social skills, it is a GOOD thing that this is no longer possible :-)).
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But they get the +2 vs mental effects that can be sustained for a minute.
Okay, so situationally better.
I still say they're awesome.
I mean, that's not really worthwhile when you take into consideration that the most common mental effect is Fear, and Inspire Courage and Inspired Defense both already add +1 Status Bonus to that, which doesn't stack.
Bards are still good, especially in a party without a Cleric. But they are by no means better healers than Clerics.
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Ugh. I didn't say they were better healers than clerics. I just thought the heal that also gave a save was awesome.
Bards are awesome in 2e, but they definitely play differently than they did in 1e. They aren't as gishy; they have the same weapon proficiency as wizards, but they also have a lot more spells, in terms of both variety and slots. Overall, I love them, and I'm really interested to see what kind of stuff they get in the apg
Ugh. I didn't say they were better healers than clerics. I just thought the heal that also gave a save was awesome.
Ah... *looks at first post*
They get a healing spell that is a better single-target heal than clerics even get!
You seem to be saying they have a better healing spell... I mean the bonus to save is... interesting but it's not something I'm going to get excited about. It's better than not getting a save bonus I guess.
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They aren't as gishy; they have the same weapon proficiency as wizards
Is. They have the same proficiency rate but they get a much better kit of weapons than Wizards. They also get crit specialization, not that they're gonna be critting very often.
It is a fair point though that if you liked playing battle bards in PF1 you might be a little disappointed here.
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Can we just all agree that no one shares my opinion and move on? I buried this post so it would go away, but it looks like it got moved back to the top.
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They aren't as gishy; they have the same weapon proficiency as wizardsIs. They have the same proficiency rate but they get a much better kit of weapons than Wizards. They also get crit specialization, not that they're gonna be critting very often.
It is a fair point though that if you liked playing battle bards in PF1 you might be a little disappointed here.
I haven't actually played it, but when I decided to create a gish sort I found a bard a VERY good alternative to a champion/sorcerer or fighter/wizard (or whatever). If you're just interested in self buffing the occult spell list is pretty much as good as the wizard spell list and the bard has the huge advantage of
1) Starting with 1 armor proficiency and so saving at least one feat2) Starting with a decent weapon selection and so saving one feat (or at least delaying the need for it for awhile)
3) Getting more hit points a level and so having significantly better survivability and less stress on stats (Con) and feats (Toughness)
4) Having lots of choice on where to multiclass depending on taste and what else you want it to do.
All in exchange for less magic (which, admittedly, is a huge downside as well) and no easy access to bespell weapon.
Its a testament to how well the system is designed that there are quite a few different ways to build a gish, none of which are compellingly better or worse than each other.
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Our group's bard/champion (currently 17th level and finishing War for the Crown) is amazing, to second what pauljathome was saying about bards in combat. I feel like the best part is that for all that she is extremely powerful with both her champion and bard abilities, there were also times when the player and the party were thinking that some of the bard feats she didn't have due to the multiclass would have been really useful too, so it's really effective but not obsoleting a pure bard.
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I have a Bard/Fighter Ulfen 'Skald' like character in my AoA campaign who feels like he holds his own in basically any aspect of the game. So I'd say so far the 'gishy' bard feels fine in our group.
He usually gets to make a full attack bonus attack every turn, has a competitive AC, and in tandem with a inspire courage and a raised shield/move action at the start of fights and fades into spell casting as the fight progresses. He snagged AOO and has been able to get some use out of since 2e is more free form with movement.
When he drops a haste his action economy is more freed up as well to mix spells and attacks more evenly.
And, depending on build, one could be a reasonable archer or fighter on the side. Not great but reasonable. Probably better than in PF2 due to action economy issues.
Reasonable? There were builds that competed with barbarians for attack and damage bonuses (looking at you dawnflower dervish/dervish of the dawn/whatever copyright friendly term got used, with your double inspire courage bonus).
I loved PF1 bards. I would've played one in every game if I could've gotten away with it.
I haven't had the chance to play a PF2 one, since I'm running all the games. And a player for my upcoming game chose a bard as her character. And I got to looking at them.
They get a healing spell that is a better single-target heal than clerics even get!
And if they make it their signature spell to spontaneously heighten? Forgetaboudit!Not exactly.
Spontaneous Healer clerics get up to 3 free Heal spells starting out compared to any other class, which usually only have 3 spell slots to begin with (barring cantrips), scaling with the amount of Charisma they have. Even without allocating any more slots, this is more healing than any other class in the game could hope to accomplish. And if you're a blaster cleric, those free Harm slots are pretty strong for you as well (since you don't need an attack roll in addition to a save anymore!).
Next, let's compare the spell results. Soothe does a d10+4, yields a maximum of 14, average 9.5 (or 9) HP. Not bad, same average as Trained Battle Medicine. However, Heal does a D8+8, yields a maximum of 16, average 12.5 (or 12) HP. This scaling increases per spell level, meaning on average, Heal will grant up to 30 more average HP per slot compared to Soothe. Sure, Soothe has the +2 bonus versus emotion/mental/whatever effects (useful for fear effects and other such things), but it doesn't stack with Inspired Defense and other such abilities, and is a pretty niche benefit in comparison.
Additionally, Heal has the option to go with 1 action (Not the best here, but amazing for those Negative Spontaneous clerics who want to burst an enemy down quick, since they don't get the +8 to damage rolls), or 3 actions (potentially healing more than the two action depending on how many targets are affected, and can deal damage to undead enemies at the same time), whereas Soothe does not have those benefits.
Furthermore, Clerics get feat...
I do like a good burst heal.
But discussing whether a Bard or a Cleric (or Angelic Sorcerer) is a better healer is missing the point. Their abilities are really mostly useful inside combat.
On a daily basis the better healers are:
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A Leaf Order Druid with Goodberry
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A Paladin with Lay on Hands
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Anyone with a good Medicine skill and Battle Medicine + Continual Recovery
Their healing recharges every ten minutes, they can totally outstrip the healers whose abilities are limited to slots per day. But only if given time.
If healing is going to be the main shtick of your character, make sure you have a second shtick as well, so your character remains useful and interesting.
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I have a Bard/Fighter Ulfen 'Skald' like character in my AoA campaign who feels like he holds his own in basically any aspect of the game. So I'd say so far the 'gishy' bard feels fine in our group.
He usually gets to make a full attack bonus attack every turn, has a competitive AC, and in tandem with a inspire courage and a raised shield/move action at the start of fights and fades into spell casting as the fight progresses. He snagged AOO and has been able to get some use out of since 2e is more free form with movement.
When he drops a haste his action economy is more freed up as well to mix spells and attacks more evenly.
Ours is also Ulfen (a Noble Scion of the house of Vinmark). She has Glimpse of Redemption and Lay on Hands, plus expert in heavy armor.
The bard in my Age of Ashes campaign is the rest of the party's favorite person. Inspire Courage is so good that the bard players apologizes to the party whenever she can't cast it.
Combo that with being able to throw Fear (the rogue loves that), Sound Burst for surprisingly decent damage, Haste (everyone loves that), AND heal if the other two healers in the party aren't enough and the Bard is a lovely jack of all trades.
Only major weakness I have noticed with bards is that I'm not sure there is a single spell on the Occult list that targets Reflex; whenever the party runs into monsters with low Reflex the bard tends to throw up her hands and say "Well, guess I'm slinging cantrips."
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Using one of the options to gain an arcane or primal cantrip is really nice on a bard. Electric Arc really rounds out the class nicely. And Ray of Frost provides a nice ranged option.
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Using one of the options to gain an arcane or primal cantrip is really nice on a bard. Electric Arc really rounds out the class nicely. And Ray of Frost provides a nice ranged option.
I've done this with my cleric. It allows him to contribute when healing isn't needed and makes the character a LOT more fun for me to play than a pure healbot.
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To be fair, my Bard in an Age of Ashes PbP has cast a non-cantrip spell once so far (we're only level 2). Otherwise, I've been tossing around Telekinetic Projectiles, Shields, and Inspire Courages.
And doing it all with my lute, because that's an option for bard spellcasting.
Sounds like my bard player. He even had projectiles crafted for his Telekinetic Projectile!
A Paladin with Lay on Hands
Anyone with a good Medicine skill and Battle Medicine + Continual Recovery
A paladin of Sarenrae that regains focus by using medicine.
That seems like your default "I like healing" character right now, since it doubles up with rechargeable and time based actions.
Using one of the options to gain an arcane or primal cantrip is really nice on a bard. Electric Arc really rounds out the class nicely. And Ray of Frost provides a nice ranged option.I've done this with my cleric. It allows him to contribute when healing isn't needed and makes the character a LOT more fun for me to play than a pure healbot.
Yeah, I forgot to mention clerics. There's a warpriest who picked up those cantrips and that little Leshy is incredibly versatile. He can heal, he can buff, he can blast, and he can bang, all while maintaining a weapon and shield in hand. Actually the cloistered cleric did the same thing, she just uses a bow as her weapon of choice.
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Bards are pretty awesome.
They have an additional save over all of the other casters with access to legendary will saves, and they get better armor with up to expert light armor proficiency. They get better weapon access up to expert as well, and they can attack as well as a regular martial every other turn with a rotation if Dirge of Doom and Inspire Courage. They get 8 HP a level like the hardier casters.
The Occult spell list is quite strong as long as you adopt electric arc through a racial feat. Soothe is solid for healing.
Their feats are all really solid and it's really hard to pick between then without even multi-classing.
Their weaknesses are a narrow selection of spells per level, a hard time doing direct damage by themselves, and a somewhat mediocre ability to handle lots of enemies. Overall, I'd say they are a little above par in a 4 adventurer party if you don't mind most of their output coming in the form of support.
Ours is also Ulfen (a Noble Scion of the house of Vinmark). She has Glimpse of Redemption and Lay on Hands, plus expert in heavy armor.
Glimpse of redemption feels like a really good add to keep that reaction slot working in her groups favor. If you don’t mind me asking, what muse did she go with?
Mine chose enigma which surprised me. The character is inspired to find the tales of unsung warriors who met an early grave so he can make stories out of them, cautionary, comedically, or otherwise.
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She is Multifarious Muse Maestro/Enigma.
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Sounds like my bard player. He even had projectiles crafted for his Telekinetic Projectile!To be fair, my Bard in an Age of Ashes PbP has cast a non-cantrip spell once so far (we're only level 2). Otherwise, I've been tossing around Telekinetic Projectiles, Shields, and Inspire Courages.
And doing it all with my lute, because that's an option for bard spellcasting.
The bard in my party commissioned a special silver arrow that she reuses for Telekinetic Projectile.
She has also insisted that her verbal component for the spell be whistling. :P
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I should probs clarify: when I say bards aren't as gishy, I meant that they don't have the 3/4 bab equivalent proficiency (that's roughly master prof), but, imo, on of the strengths of this game is that there's actually far less of a gap between wizard bab and fighter bab. The fighter still feels like a martial BAMF, but my elven wizard can still use a sword or bow and not feel punished for it.
I'm glad to see the cha caster/champion combo works though. I've been wanting to play a heavy armor caster for so freakin long.
Save guys!
I was here studying the classes and with less than 10 minutes to start, I haven't decided yet!
Well, I am reading about the bard and I already felt that it is a good class, I am considering taking a kobold! Further ahead, as your progress suggests, I say in terms of archetype.
Dragon disciple a good option?
Grateful!
Save guys!
I was here studying the classes and with less than 10 minutes to start, I haven't decided yet!
Well, I am reading about the bard and I already felt that it is a good class, I am considering taking a kobold! Further ahead, as your progress suggests, I say in terms of archetype.
Dragon disciple a good option?
Grateful!
Good in terms of what?
Save guys!
I was here studying the classes and with less than 10 minutes to start, I haven't decided yet!
Well, I am reading about the bard and I already felt that it is a good class, I am considering taking a kobold! Further ahead, as your progress suggests, I say in terms of archetype.
Dragon disciple a good option?
Grateful!
It's a bit difficult to grasp your meaning, but Dragon Disciple seems like a nice option for kobolds who'd like extra blasting and variety on their spell list. If you plan to have very low Dexterity, the scales feat is okaaay...but worse than almost any other armor, and Bards already start with light armor. So just pick up things in Dragon Disciple if they really interest you -- it helps if you're playing with the Free Archetype variant rule, since Bards have a ludicrous number of powerful/interesting class feats you'd be cutting into. And if you're the kobold heritage with resistance to damage, make sure to use another damage type for Dragon Disciple so you don't lose the dedication benefit.
As for the original topic of the thread, Bards are lightly busted. Better chassis than any other caster, tons of powerful options (given for free, taking no resources, or both), absurd variety...it's a good thing they're typecast as support characters.
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Bards are awesome in PF2. Best support caster in the game bar none. You can do a little bit of everything and quite a few things very, very well.
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I was just trying to build an occult witch who is charismatic, and I got sad about how much nicer the bard chassis is.