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After doing a search for conversion notes for Savage Tides and coming to the conclusion that there was very little to go on, I decided to start a 4e conversion blog for STAP.
My blog was inspired by Scott Betts 4e Rise of the Runelords Tales from the Rusty Dragon Blog.
Theres not much content there yet, but I hope to fix that soon. I look forward to any comments or critisims anyone may have about my posts or conversions.
You can find my blog The Chronicles of Abysm here.
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So far, whenever I consider converting a 3.5e adventure to 4e, I usually multiply the 3.5e encounter level by 1.5 to get the equivalent 4e encounter level. I noticed this actually puts a number of creatures in the 4e monster manual pretty close to where they need to be for the conversion.
So an EL 12 becomes an EL 18 for 4e, etc.
Watch out for the differing formulas between the editions though. In 3.5e, a single CR 5 is an EL 5 encounter. In 4e, an EL 5 encounter is FIVE level 5 creatures (or 4 if you only have 4 PCs).
Good luck in your endeavor!
Since 4e has a slightly faster leveling curve, you might get the 2.5 level gain per adventure that you need.
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So far, whenever I consider converting a 3.5e adventure to 4e, I usually multiply the 3.5e encounter level by 1.5 to get the equivalent 4e encounter level. I noticed this actually puts a number of creatures in the 4e monster manual pretty close to where they need to be for the conversion.
So an EL 12 becomes an EL 18 for 4e, etc.
Watch out for the differing formulas between the editions though. In 3.5e, a single CR 5 is an EL 5 encounter. In 4e, an EL 5 encounter is FIVE level 5 creatures (or 4 if you only have 4 PCs).
Good luck in your endeavor!
Since 4e has a slightly faster leveling curve, you might get the 2.5 level gain per adventure that you need.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind as I go along. This is my first real blog /conversion so well see how things progress.
I'll be following the project closely!
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Hey Scott,
I really love your site! Its beautiful and well organized. Additionally your conversion pdfs are of the same high quality. I was wondering if you could give me some pointers or direct me towards the appropriate sites that would enable me to format my own site and/or documents once I get to that point. For instance how can I get my own unique bullets like the arrows on you site or the nifty flower ones used on Craig’s blog Under a Wanderin' Star? I’m not really a tech savvy person but recently I’ve been trying to learn about how to efficiently and properly use the tools at my disposal for blogging and wiki’s. I’ve also never used and don’t really understand how the document-sharing site you use works but would like to know more. Anyway I don’t want to take up too much of your time but if you feel up to it you and you would like to you can email me at zombiecowboy@hotmail.com.
Hey Savage Screen Monkey!
Hugely interested in this, having been sitting in front of my Dungeon 139 thinking about converting "There Is No Honour". I lacked the ambition to convert the whole campaign though...
Not sure whether you prefer discussion here or via your blog - here is probably easier unless it's getting crowded.
Like you I have been inspired by Scott's extraordinary dedication (lots of people start these things, far too few can keep it going) and I have pinched several of his ideas when attempting to convert scenarios.
You're right about the XP issue - most scenarios seem to need to have more combat in 4th ed. You can mitigate this a little with Quest awards (DMG122). I actually like these quite a lot, often giving short details of the Quest and XP as handouts to the players. I think it is pretty easy to put 10% of the XP into Quests (say 1 major and 4 minor over two levels?). Minor quests in particular can be a bit quirky and encourage exploration and roleplaying, while the major quest helps keep a clear goal for that part of the campaign.
Again, I suspect you won't need the full 25 encounters. I routinely use encounters one or two levels above the player level, which will also shrink the total, so I reckon that could drop it by another 10%. So, I reckon 20-odd quality encounters would cover it easily, and might help you packing in "and then another group of zombies attack you" that might be misconstrued as filler:-)
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Hi Andrew
I have no problem discussing stuff here. Honestly I look forward to any kind of discussion that leads to a better conversion. In part I was hoping that the blog was going to help organize my thoughts about the conversion work,and allow others to share their thoughts and possibly providing me with an alternative solution or diffrent way of looking at how to go about doing the actual conversion work, and lastly help keep me motivated to see this huge project through.
Well then, I'm happy to share my initial thoughts as long as you are absolutely clear that they are only my thoughts, that I would be personally insulted if you didn't throw at least 90% aside as not being suitable for your campaign/players, and with an apology before I even start for being a bit left brained and obsessed with numbers...
Hokay, first off, the choice of campaign setting and the decision to convert Greyhawk to 4th ed AT THE SAME TIME as the adventure path. You are clearly a dedicated purist, and if you will actually have enough time to do this than massive respect to you. I don't think it's completely necessary (unless you want to do it for your campaign, obviously). I worked on the first four scenarios to 3.5 Iron Kingdoms with little difficulty and that's a quite different setting.
Sticking with Forgotten Realms is easy and (virtually) the generic option - most DMs are used to converting away from this. I do understand your anxieties about the big changes in FR, but given the new magic system/character classes/races etc, etc you would have to come up with some pretty big changes to Greyhawk to explain them. Now, what has been done with FR is (understandably) stressful to us fanboys, if you don't like it and would like to come up with some more personal changes to Greyhawk, that's AOK. Or you can just let Wizards take the heat for RUNING TEH FORGTTEN REALMS WAT WERE TEHY THINKING ILL NEVER PLAY D&D AGAIN!!!!?!, and use what they have already done:-)
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Well then, I'm happy to share my initial thoughts as long as you are absolutely clear that they are only my thoughts, that I would be personally insulted if you didn't throw at least 90% aside as not being suitable for your campaign/players, and with an apology before I even start for being a bit left brained and obsessed with numbers...
Hokay, first off, the choice of campaign setting and the decision to convert Greyhawk to 4th ed AT THE SAME TIME as the adventure path. You are clearly a dedicated purist, and if you will actually have enough time to do this than massive respect to you. I don't think it's completely necessary (unless you want to do it for your campaign, obviously). I worked on the first four scenarios to 3.5 Iron Kingdoms with little difficulty and that's a quite different setting.
Sticking with Forgotten Realms is easy and (virtually) the generic option - most DMs are used to converting away from this. I do understand your anxieties about the big changes in FR, but given the new magic system/character classes/races etc, etc you would have to come up with some pretty big changes to Greyhawk to explain them. Now, what has been done with FR is (understandably) stressful to us fanboys, if you don't like it and would like to come up with some more personal changes to Greyhawk, that's AOK. Or you can just let Wizards take the heat for RUNING TEH FORGTTEN REALMS WAT WERE TEHY THINKING ILL NEVER PLAY D&D AGAIN!!!!?!, and use what they have already done:-)
Well the more I look at it, the more it seems to me that I dont need to worry to much about making actual big changes to Greyhawk.Because the STAP is not centered on Greyhawk lore as AoW is it means I can ignore allot of stuff. In terms of actual conversion work Im also thinking of taking the path of least resistance. Meaning Im mostly going to try and figure out the easyist way of looking at things that still fits the flavour of 4e.
Seems pragmatic and sensible response re Greyhawk.
OK, here come some numbers which may or may not appal you with the sheer gaminess.
If you are looking for 2.5 levels and you use quests/higher level encounters/something else to reduce to 20 encounters it's still not that easy. Stewart Perkins’ excellent overview ended up with not enough “heroic” encounters, and he only had 14 encounters for the first section.
Some of the stuff in the other “conversion of STAP to 4E” thread is really helpful.
Now, as I see it you have six major encounter seams in the first "episode" (sorry I don't have it in front of me and the details may be a bit wrong...)
1) Taking the boat back: Maybe two encounters? Initial fight with the thugs then the rhagidessa(sp?) escapes - maybe add in a few other exotic monsters. Would still count as a single encounter in terms of no time for short rest, but sequential nature may stop players being overwhelmed. Also easy to have monsters attack each other rather than PCs if it ends up a bit much.
2) The Vanderboren Vault: Maybe two encounters? One fight, one skill challenge =/- traps?
3) Looking for Vanthus: Maybe two encounters? Skill challenge, obviously; a run in with some villainous groups you like in your campaign at some point? (maybe tougher opposition if doing badly in challenge? Maybe the Scarlet Brotherhood were a little unhappy about their monsters getting barbecued?)
4) Parrot Island: I’d like to get four encounters here, might take a bit of padding. Four encounters feels like a good long session, and would ensure the players feel a bit pushed in terms of dailys/healing surges etc. The final fight being a bunch of crabs is a bit anticlimactic...? mix and match?
5) Looking for the Lotus Dragons: Again two encounters? Skill challenge and ambush, make sure feels different from “3”.
6) The Lotus Dragons: Well, we’d be left with eight encounters worth here – not a problem to fit in but difficult to avoid either the players needing to retreat and return (pretty difficult if they haven’t found an alternative entrance) or worse ending up with a coordinated response from the Dragons that overwhelms the players. As noted before, the size of the maps needs tweaking for 4th eds more mobile/cinematic style. SP’s previous summary broke it down into 8-9 encounters, I don’t know if anyone has tried playing it and how this worked out. Some sympathetic DM-ing to allow an extended rest on at least one occasion would be helpful.
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Seems pragmatic and sensible response re Greyhawk.
OK, here come some numbers which may or may not appal you with the sheer gaminess.
If you are looking for 2.5 levels and you use quests/higher level encounters/something else to reduce to 20 encounters it's still not that easy. Stewart Perkins’ excellent overview ended up with not enough “heroic” encounters, and he only had 14 encounters for the first section.
Some of the stuff in the other “conversion of STAP to 4E” thread is really helpful.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well as I see it I have about 20 actual encounters. This includes combat, skill challenges, and a puzzle. Then if you add in the 5 minor quests and the major quests of the adventure that makes 2 more XP rewards for a total of 22. This should bring the PC's over 3rd level by the end of the adventure which roughly hits the goal Im looking for. Ideally I would like to add in some more skill challenges somehow. Addtionally, Some of the encounter areas like parrot island and the theives guidhall could be padded out with a few more encounters. This would make it a solid 3.5 levels. From what I saw in the AP in 3.5 typically the low level adventures had more encounters and as the adventures reached higher levels the encounters became fewer.So I think things mat balance out in the end.
As far as the encounters go themselves, I feel that this is where allot of judgment calls need to be made to try and present a encounter as its expected in 4e, but at the same time balance that with what the original intention of the encounter was in 3.5.